Off Topic · Is it time the US start rethinking it's foreign policy with Israel? (page 2)
I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.
In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.
sebstar wrote:Israelies are essentially occupying what they believe to be their rightful land --- through military force. I'm not condoning acts of terrorism at all, but lets be real --- they feel bullied. You would too.I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.
In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.
Agreed. It's not anti-semetic to not agree with the actions a nation takes.
I also get annoyed how Israel can do no wrong. Every violent action they take is justified because they are "threatened" by their neighbor. Meanwhile their neighbor has no army and its people fight with rocks. Terrorists exist everywhere, even here. We find some eventually just like they do. Killing innocents and expanding further into land that isn't yours and using the fact that you're "threatened" as a justification for this is wrong.
Israel is a loose cannon in the Middle East. They answer to noone and care about nothing. And the world just sits around and lets it happen.
I read somewhere that Israel shows restraint. Israel is just as much a terrorist to Palestine as any other terrorist organization is to the rest of the world. Israel occupies land owned by Palestine and continues expanding further into Palestine with new settlements when they not be and have been TOLD NOT TO. They are the aggressor. They bully the weaker Palestinians and force them to submit. Israel thinks it has the right to attack anyone and everyone because it is under "constant threat". They report to noone and do not respect human rights of others and the right to personal freedoms. Israel is a giant, walking irony of a nation. For a nation that cries about the Holocaust and then commits these acts of violence on civilians and their country countless times is a joke.
bitty41 wrote:But the UN does recognize Israel as a separate nation. It was voted upon in 1947 by the members of the UN and passed with a 2/3 majority, the "No" votes coming from the arab and muslim states. Israel legally exists in accord with International Law.Markji,
The highlighted portion illustrates my point further even in 1947 (I think some of the Arab states have become more radical since) did not recognize Israel if that vote was held today I shudder to imagine what the voting patterns would be. But the only reason I brought this point was to show that there is a very strong reason why the Arab states, Iran, etc will not relocate the Palestinians.
Honestly don't get me started on some of the Arab states but that's an entirely different rant believe me as a woman I don't have many things to say about the Arab states leadership and radical Muslim states.
I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.This is no easy question and I don't know if our leadership is even ready to honestly pursue a legitimate peace process. There is no money in peace but again this an entirely different topic.
Bitty,
I agree with you on the Arab states and woman's rights, really the lack of woman's rights. I also agree with you on the point that there is no money in peace.....the military industrial complex needs the conflict to supply arms.
But now to the State of Israel. While the Arab nations may not have wanted Israel to exist and still don't want Israel to exist, the fact is that Israel does exist. I don't believe you are advocating that Israel dissolve and give the country to the Palestinians? That would never happen. FYI - Jews have lived in Israel continuously since before Christ, although the majority were Muslim before the immigration of Jews after WWII. Today, 15% of Israel is Muslim.
Your reason about why the other Arab nations didn't accept the Palestinian refugees into their nation sounds good, (it would mean recognizing Israel) but there is another reason which I believe is more the real reason. The other Arab nations don't like the Palestinians. (Actually hate is a better word but it sounds so harsh). The other Arab nations don't like each other. They are of different tribes and have been fighting each other for territory for many hundreds if not one or two thousand years.
Initially Jordan let some Palestinians in, and they created a lot of internal unrest. They don't allow Palestinians to immigrate anymore. Egypt has a wall on their border with Gaza just like Israel. Egypt also participated in the blockade of Gaza. Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians to come into their country either. Not because they don't want to acknowledge Israel's claim to the land. Egypt has already acknowledged this and signed a peace treaty with Israel.
Lebanon has a big problem with Hezbollah which resides in Southern Lebanon and Southern Syria. They have fought internal wars with Hezbollah, with Christian Lebanese against the Muslim Lebanese, with Syria, etc. If they had a choice they would kick out Hezbollah and Syria who has controlled Lebanon for quite awhile.
SilverfuelThis actually is the beginning of a solution. Gaza has no economy. The kids growing up have very few opportunities. The best opportunity is to join Hamas, get paid, be trained, and fight. If they had factories, jobs, the ability to start businesses, etc, the people would start to grow and live life. Right now there is not much for them to look forward to.
They don't have to relocate Palestinians. They can build factories in Gaza and Egypt can open their borders as a trade route.
Childs2Dudley wrote:sebstar wrote:Israelies are essentially occupying what they believe to be their rightful land --- through military force. I'm not condoning acts of terrorism at all, but lets be real --- they feel bullied. You would too.I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.
In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.
Agreed. It's not anti-semetic to not agree with the actions a nation takes.
I also get annoyed how Israel can do no wrong. Every violent action they take is justified because they are "threatened" by their neighbor. Meanwhile their neighbor has no army and its people fight with rocks. Terrorists exist everywhere, even here. We find some eventually just like they do. Killing innocents and expanding further into land that isn't yours and using the fact that you're "threatened" as a justification for this is wrong.
Israel is a loose cannon in the Middle East. They answer to noone and care about nothing. And the world just sits around and lets it happen.
I read somewhere that Israel shows restraint. Israel is just as much a terrorist to Palestine as any other terrorist organization is to the rest of the world. Israel occupies land owned by Palestine and continues expanding further into Palestine with new settlements when they not be and have been TOLD NOT TO. They are the aggressor. They bully the weaker Palestinians and force them to submit. Israel thinks it has the right to attack anyone and everyone because it is under "constant threat". They report to noone and do not respect human rights of others and the right to personal freedoms. Israel is a giant, walking irony of a nation. For a nation that cries about the Holocaust and then commits these acts of violence on civilians and their country countless times is a joke.
This is strong, but you kept it 100. Israel has entered a dangerous nexus between their actions and their justifications. And they are literally immune to any criticsm. Obama said something harmless a month or two ago and the anti-semtism barbs started zinging.
Unchecked power is distressing and extremely dangerous.
you cannot argue one person's religious views over another person's b/c that's an argument that will never be won...especially by politicians who may have alterior motives to wanting to restore peace in that area of the world.
bitty41 wrote:Bippity10 wrote:I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.^this pisses me off. If you have something to offer up towards the discussion then do so but just chiming for a potshot is a cheap move. I'm not trying to change minds or prevent people from offering up opposing opinions this is strictly a dialogue (relating to the Freedom Flotilla incident). And if you really want to get technical the last time I checked I'm a American citizen and as such my tax dollars as well as millions other Americans tax dollars go towards Israeli's military so yea we can kinda of judge them from afar.
Who cares if it pisses you off. It's not a pot shot, it's how I feel. I do not apologize for that. If New Jersey was smuggling in arms and lobbing rockets into downtown Manhattan your perspective would be different. Rockets are indiscriminately fired into their cities and yet the world asks them to let all the ships through. Would we? Would anyone? If we started lobbing rockets into Mexico on a daily basis what would the world's reaction be? What would yours be?
Of course you can judge Israel from afar. No one is telling you to stop so don't take it personally. Just saying, when judging a situation realize that you are seeing things completely different then those people that are actually sitting in the country where rockets are fired at them on a regular basis. What country would put up with that. I disagree with a lot of what Israel does, but blockades to protect your country are not one of them for me. I also was not on the ship, so am cautious with my condemnation or side taking.
Of course somebody will now step up and say that all Jewish people have a right to live in Israel. Which is also ludicrous. Religion, nationality, and ethnicity are all different things.
A Jewish person from America is an American who has the right to live peacefully and safely in America. A Jewish person from Russia is a Russian who has the right to live peacefully and safely in Russia. A Jewish person from Poland is Polish and has the right to live peacefully and safely in Poland.
Jewish people were forced from the holy land a long long time ago and settled into communities all over the world. They built lives there and became part of those nations. They assimilated culturally, economically and genetically too. Anyone who claims that Israel is their birthright when they are actually from thousands of miles away is engaging in intellectual dishonesty.
People should study up on history a little bit. Zionism was considered a dangerous, extremist, and fringe philosophy by Jewish communities the world over until the Holocaust and only slowly gained acceptance in the West over decades afterward. Respected Jewish leaders felt that Jewish people should have the right to live in peace in any country they were actually from. And they were right.
When somebody starts claiming their religion gives them the inherent right to displace someone who has lived on a particular land they have to take a deep look at what they feel the rights of other humans are.
oohah
oohah wrote:^^ Bippity, the problem is your analogy is ludicrous. New Jersey is not a nation of people forcefully removed from their land, encamped under horrendous condition who are living in fear while the place where they lived for 1000s of years is repopulated by people from Russia, Poland and other lands.Of course somebody will now step up and say that all Jewish people have a right to live in Israel. Which is also ludicrous. Religion, nationality, and ethnicity are all different things.
A Jewish person from America is an American who has the right to live peacefully and safely in America. A Jewish person from Russia is a Russian who has the right to live peacefully and safely in Russia. A Jewish person from Poland is Polish and has the right to live peacefully and safely in Poland.
Jewish people were forced from the holy land a long long time ago and settled into communities all over the world. They built lives there and became part of those nations. They assimilated culturally, economically and genetically too. Anyone who claims that Israel is their birthright when they are actually from thousands of miles away is engaging in intellectual dishonesty.
People should study up on history a little bit. Zionism was considered a dangerous, extremist, and fringe philosophy by Jewish communities the world over until the Holocaust and only slowly gained acceptance in the West over decades afterward. Respected Jewish leaders felt that Jewish people should have the right to live in peace in any country they were actually from. And they were right.
When somebody starts claiming their religion gives them the inherent right to displace someone who has lived on a particular land they have to take a deep look at what they feel the rights of other humans are.
oohah
oohah wrote:^^ Bippity, the problem is your analogy is ludicrous. New Jersey is not a nation of people forcefully removed from their land, encamped under horrendous condition who are living in fear while the place where they lived for 1000s of years is repopulated by people from Russia, Poland and other lands.Of course somebody will now step up and say that all Jewish people have a right to live in Israel. Which is also ludicrous. Religion, nationality, and ethnicity are all different things.
A Jewish person from America is an American who has the right to live peacefully and safely in America. A Jewish person from Russia is a Russian who has the right to live peacefully and safely in Russia. A Jewish person from Poland is Polish and has the right to live peacefully and safely in Poland.
Jewish people were forced from the holy land a long long time ago and settled into communities all over the world. They built lives there and became part of those nations. They assimilated culturally, economically and genetically too. Anyone who claims that Israel is their birthright when they are actually from thousands of miles away is engaging in intellectual dishonesty.
People should study up on history a little bit. Zionism was considered a dangerous, extremist, and fringe philosophy by Jewish communities the world over until the Holocaust and only slowly gained acceptance in the West over decades afterward. Respected Jewish leaders felt that Jewish people should have the right to live in peace in any country they were actually from. And they were right.
When somebody starts claiming their religion gives them the inherent right to displace someone who has lived on a particular land they have to take a deep look at what they feel the rights of other humans are.
oohah
Of course the analogy is ludicrous because it would never happen and because no situation is like the Israel/Palestinian situation. So let's put it this way. We currently occupy Iraq. Let's say tomorrow the government of Iraq started using Bermuda as a base of operations(they should because it's beautiful there) and started lobbing rockets into downtown Manhattan. What should our response be? Let's play make believe and say that Canada and Mexico were powerful sworn enemies of ours and were smuggling the rockets into Bermuda. Also, neither country recognize America's right to exist and vow not to stop until we were destroyed. There were also terrorists coming over the borders and blowing up a bus from time to time. Let's also say that the Canadian government is being run by the very people that are sending the terrorists over to blow up our buses. And that Mexico is rewarding their families with payments each time one of them blows up a city bus in Manhattan. We could of course expand the analogy for a while to make sure it matches up with the Israel/Palestine situation but you get the point. Now nothing in this analogy would make our occupation of Iraq the right thing. But nothing in this analogy justifies the missiles being fired into Manhattan. The only thing that would be justified would be the actions the US took to stop the missiles from landing on the garden in the middle of a Knicks game. No matter who is at fault for the rest of the situation at this point in our analogy it does not matter. The government would still have the responsibility to stop the missiles
The Israel problem is not as simple as "we were there first, so you leave". Israel is here to stay. The only way to change the situation would be to kill or drive all the people out of Israel(does anyone want that?). Otherwise you have to accept today's reality and move forward. Unfortunately no one is willing to do that. It's all about the past for both sides. Both sides are claiming ownership on long past ideas instead of focusing on today's reality, which is all that matters if you want peace. Unfortunately the Palestinians and Hezbollah(on the other side) do not recognize Israel. Not only do they not recognize Israel but they vow to destroy it. How do you make any concessions or compromise when that is the reality. If my enemy is bent on my destruction, does not recognize me, and says they will not stop until we are all dead, why would I negotiate with them. Any compromise Israel makes will be followed by more demands because the negotiating partner does not believe you own what you kept in the compromise. Until Israel is recognized and the violence stops what are you negotiating?
Both sides have done right and wrong in this situation. But no peace will ever come until the major players recognize Israel's right to exist. Without that, the only way for Palestinians to get what they want is to kill Israelis. This will in turn "justify" Israel's response and kill Palestians. The cycle continues.
It's amazing the actions you will take when your destruction is a distinct possibility. In the U.S. we have a hard time grasping this. But the day Israel is recognized by Iran, the Palestinians etc all the pressure is upon Israel. All the world's pressure falls on them. Until then, no matter what wrong they've done I can see their point of view as much as I can see that of the Palestinians. You simply aren't going to allow enemies that vow to destroy you to build up even more strength.
First of all I think you are generalizing about the views of Palestinians. They really don't have a choice to recognize Israel or not so who cares about that? The real issue is whether anyone has a right to live peacefully, safely, and happily. Give people a the chance to live happily and things like recognizing this or that fall by the wayside.
Second, how about Israel recognizing the slightest degree of human rights of Palestinians? One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected. ISrael refuses to recognize that fact. So the what good is an election if you can only elect who your dictator wants you to elect? Also, in 2008, Hamas was adhering to the ceasefire and Israel is the one who violated it multiple times and also would not let in supplies etc. as agreed. SO who is breaking the peace? Any equitable look at the situation has to see that Israel is at least as aggressive but probably more aggressive than any other government or group in the area.
A lot of people think Isrealis live in fear. They should go down to the gaza strip and find out what it really means to live in fear.
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What I don't see in your opinion is the point of view of a Palestinian human being. Forget religion. When you are booted from your land by the West or any other power and forced to live in horrendous conditions all sorts of ugliness will foment. What happened to the 1967 treaties? The right of return? Why is it the Palestinians must simply submit and Israel has no responsibility to keep their word? How then can one act surprised when acts of war are committed?
I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.
Forget a 2 state solution. That is a lie. Israel will never ever give the Palestinians a secure viable state. The solution is one state, secular where all people's rights are recognized equally.
I fear that is a fantasy. People think this is about Jew Vs. Muslim. In fact it is about land, power, and money, about the West establishing an outpost in the Middle East. The historical trials and suffering of Jewish people are being misused terribly.
oohah
oohah wrote:Bippity, sorry but your other analogies just don't add up either. We're talking about people who were displaced from the land where they lived for 1000s of years. Your example a foreign government setting up a threatening operation off the coast of America. (Think Russia-->Cuba.) A much better analogy to the Israel Palestine situation is South African Apartheid or how Europe displaced Indians in America.First of all I think you are generalizing about the views of Palestinians. They really don't have a choice to recognize Israel or not so who cares about that? The real issue is whether anyone has a right to live peacefully, safely, and happily. Give people a the chance to live happily and things like recognizing this or that fall by the wayside.
Second, how about Israel recognizing the slightest degree of human rights of Palestinians? One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected. ISrael refuses to recognize that fact. So the what good is an election if you can only elect who your dictator wants you to elect? Also, in 2008, Hamas was adhering to the ceasefire and Israel is the one who violated it multiple times and also would not let in supplies etc. as agreed. SO who is breaking the peace? Any equitable look at the situation has to see that Israel is at least as aggressive but probably more aggressive than any other government or group in the area.
A lot of people think Isrealis live in fear. They should go down to the gaza strip and find out what it really means to live in fear.
***
What I don't see in your opinion is the point of view of a Palestinian human being. Forget religion. When you are booted from your land by the West or any other power and forced to live in horrendous conditions all sorts of ugliness will foment. What happened to the 1967 treaties? The right of return? Why is it the Palestinians must simply submit and Israel has no responsibility to keep their word? How then can one act surprised when acts of war are committed?
I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.
Forget a 2 state solution. That is a lie. Israel will never ever give the Palestinians a secure viable state. The solution is one state, secular where all people's rights are recognized equally.
I fear that is a fantasy. People think this is about Jew Vs. Muslim. In fact it is about land, power, and money, about the West establishing an outpost in the Middle East. The historical trials and suffering of Jewish people are being misused terribly.
oohah
Okay, ooh aah answer this question. Let's go to la la land and pretend that Israel admits all wrong doing. Then what. What is the solution??? Do they give the land back and go find somewhere else to live? If so, where? IF not, then why is it important who was there first, or how Israel was formulated. Time to look forward.
Ooh aah if you can't see the recognition of Israel by Hamas(the elected govt) as a central point in this dispute then I think you are missing a major point. You simply aren't going to negotiate or have peace with someone who's stated goal is your destruction. Regardless of the genesis of this issue this is still reality. And from the point of view of Israel it doesn't matter who was elected to positions of leadership. If they are trying to destroy you, then there is no place for negotiation to begin. No matter who you or I think is at fault, that is reality.
If you and I are neighbors. I believe you've stolen my property. Neither of us can prove who's home this is. I vow to destroy you and not compromise until I have all of your land and you are killed. Then one day out of frustration I start to burn down your house. You ask to sit at the negotiating table. I say, that's fine but in the meantime I continue to burn down your house and begin to kill your children at what point are you going to walk away from the negotiating table and defend your family. Until I recognize that you have some ownership stake in the property, and that I won't try to kill you after we reach a compromise, you aren't going to negotiate with me. It's simple reality. NO matter who is right or wrong, you are going to protect the lives of your family.
I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.
Personally I am surprised when anyone does horrible things. There are a myriad of ways to come to an agreement that don't include killing some random person that is just trying to live their life and who may even be on your side. After seeing the social change that Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Gandhi brought about, I do believe that there are better ways.
The majority of Palestinians and Israelis want peace. They want to live their lives and go on like everyone else on the planet. Unfortunately to many people in power on both sides of the fence are never going to let it happen and then in the future more blood will be shed.
And what about the two-state solution that I've already mentioned? The split would be somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
oohah wrote:Bippity, sorry but your other analogies just don't add up either. We're talking about people who were displaced from the land where they lived for 1000s of years. Your example a foreign government setting up a threatening operation off the coast of America. (Think Russia-->Cuba.) A much better analogy to the Israel Palestine situation is South African Apartheid or how Europe displaced Indians in America.Sorry oohah, but you don't have your facts straight.First of all I think you are generalizing about the views of Palestinians. They really don't have a choice to recognize Israel or not so who cares about that? The real issue is whether anyone has a right to live peacefully, safely, and happily. Give people a the chance to live happily and things like recognizing this or that fall by the wayside.
Second, how about Israel recognizing the slightest degree of human rights of Palestinians? One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected. ISrael refuses to recognize that fact. So the what good is an election if you can only elect who your dictator wants you to elect? Also, in 2008, Hamas was adhering to the ceasefire and Israel is the one who violated it multiple times and also would not let in supplies etc. as agreed. SO who is breaking the peace? Any equitable look at the situation has to see that Israel is at least as aggressive but probably more aggressive than any other government or group in the area.
A lot of people think Isrealis live in fear. They should go down to the gaza strip and find out what it really means to live in fear.
***
What I don't see in your opinion is the point of view of a Palestinian human being. Forget religion. When you are booted from your land by the West or any other power and forced to live in horrendous conditions all sorts of ugliness will foment. What happened to the 1967 treaties? The right of return? Why is it the Palestinians must simply submit and Israel has no responsibility to keep their word? How then can one act surprised when acts of war are committed?
I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.
Forget a 2 state solution. That is a lie. Israel will never ever give the Palestinians a secure viable state. The solution is one state, secular where all people's rights are recognized equally. Read my earlier posts. Israel offered this to the Palestinians at the beginning and it was rejected.
I fear that is a fantasy. People think this is about Jew Vs. Muslim. In fact it is about land, power, and money, about the West establishing an outpost in the Middle East. The historical trials and suffering of Jewish people are being misused terribly.
oohah
1. The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.
As of December 2009, (Israel is) 75.4% Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others".
2. Jews have lived in Palestine/Israel for thousands of years. Most were dispersed to other countries, but there were always Jews who remained and lived there.
3. "One may not like Hamas, but they were actually elected." Hamas claimed a victory in the election.....but so did Ahmadinejad in Iran who claimed 80% of the vote. Just pointing out that announced election results aren't necessarily the real, legitimate result. Fatah, whom Hamas ran against, didn't agree with the election results, and fought fierce battles with Hamas before they were forced to retreat to their stronghold on the West Bank.
4. Israel keeps out the Palestinians now and has strict security because when they were let in, they were the ones who were the suicide bombers, and other terrorists planting car bombs, etc and killing innocent people. Not all. Not even most as most are good descent people. But some....and too many to not restrict the movements of all.
Look at our security. And we've only had one major terrorist attack on 9/11. How about the car bomb in Times Square a few months ago. That beefed up security. Israel faces that every day.
Bip - your analogy of missles being fired onto Manhattan is really right on. Oohah dismisses it because it wouldn't be possible. That's right . It wouldn't be possible here, but it is possible and it is happening every day in Israel.
One thing to realize is that Israel has been in a state of war since their independence in 1948. This may not be comprehensible to some, but they have been in a state of war for 62 years with 3 major wars fought and dozens of lesser wars fought. They have been fighting for their lives. This isn't a war on some other continent like Viet Nam, or the Iraq wars where we weren't physically attacked in our homeland. We were safe. They are fighting for their lives on their own soil.
There still is no peace treaty with Lebanon, Syria,Iraq or Iran. Hamas in Gaza and Hizbullah in southern Lebanon and Syria are fully armed, well-trained armies that regularly attack Israel. The elected governments of Lebanon, Syria Iran (and not sure what will now happen in Iraq) SUPPORT the terrorist attacks against Israel. Civilians suffer during war. It isn't right and it isn't fair. And I wish there wasn't any fighting and everyone lived in peace and happiness.
How to bring peace? Not by running a blockade and starting a confrontation which everyone knew was going to cause trouble. Bring peace by diffusing the tensions and stress in the collective consciousness of the region and in the individuals.
All these talks for peace, over so many decades, by so many great world statesmen and women, while well-meaning, have not brought peace. If you want peace, first remove the tensions, hate and anger and then you have the fertile ground for peace to happen.
I'd love to see this thread turn towards solutions that can create peace rather than blaming one side or the other.
And since Sir Paul McCartney just did a concert for Pres. Obama, I think it is appropriate to hear from another Beatle on this. John Lennon - Give Peace a Chance. Give you guys a flavor of the 60's.
The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.
That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.
And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.
Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?
By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?
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Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.
Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_...
For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?
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Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.
I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.
By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.
I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.
oohah
sebstar wrote:Bip, it seems like you've completely subscribed to the Israel agenda.And what about the two-state solution that I've already mentioned? The split would be somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Of course it sounds like I subscribe to their agenda. With you it always sounds that way when someone doesn't hop on your train with you. You have posted with me long enough to know that my opinions are mine. I have amazingly Republican and amazingly Democratic views. I agree with Conservatives at times and Liberals as well. I take each situation for what it is and give my opinion. ON this site I have been called an terrorist lover, a Zionist, a Conservative Yahoo and a liberal wacko. A Larry Lover and a Marbs lover. I take all this as a compliment. It means I'm fair.
1.) "somewhere along the Gaza strip and West bank" is not a solution.
2.) I disagree with the settlements, I disagree with the razing of houses. I disagree with a lot of the Israeli policy. Does not mean that I don't understand some of their actions. To me the blockade makes 100% sense regardless of everything else going on. You cannot let your enemy smuggle in weapons that they then turn around and fire into your cities. And for anyone to say that they should is ridiculous.
oohah wrote:The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.
And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.
Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?
By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?
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Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.
Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_...
For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?
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Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.
I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.
By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.
I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.
oohah
So once again I ask, what is the solution?
Markji wrote:fer during war. It isn't right and it isn't fair. And I wish there wasn't any fighting and everyone lived in peace and happiness.How to bring peace? Not by running a blockade and starting a confrontation which everyone knew was going to cause trouble. Bring peace by diffusing the tensions and stress in the collective consciousness of the region and in the individuals.
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?
Bippity10 wrote:
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?
Wow. Why is it always incumbent on Palestine? how about Israel stops opening up illegal settlements? how about Israel actually adheres to a ceasefire which Hamas actually did then Israel violated last year? Wouldn't that go a long way toward peace as well?
Equity Bippity equity.
So once again I ask, what is the solution?
One state, everyone lives together Christians, Muslim, and Jew. Nobody has more or less rights. The state is there to protect all people's safety and basic human rights, not one specific group. And stop bringing in Europeans. It may sound crazy but that is my solution.
oohah
oohah wrote:Bippity10 wrote:
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?Wow. Why is it always incumbent on Palestine? how about Israel stops opening up illegal settlements? how about Israel actually adheres to a ceasefire which Hamas actually did then Israel violated last year? Wouldn't that go a long way toward peace as well?
Equity Bippity equity.
So once again I ask, what is the solution?One state, everyone lives together Christians, Muslim, and Jew. Nobody has more or less rights. The state is there to protect all people's safety and basic human rights, not one specific group. And stop bringing in Europeans. It may sound crazy but that is my solution.
oohah
1.) I agree with you about the settlements issue but we were not talking about the settlements, we were talking about the blockade. Also if you know the history, cease fires have happened and been violated by both sides. Can't point fingers at either one. Which one of the 80 million broken cease fires are you talking about?
As I have said before I disagree with some of what the Israeli's have done and agree on others. Same with the Palestinians. The settlements are a hot button issue with me, and you and I are on the same page. Don't jump to conclusions about what my opinions are on everything just because I disagree with you on another issue. That's the mistake made on this site a lot. Because I agreed with Larry Brown on one or two things I was said to agree with him on all, and was considered a lover. There is no need to guess with me. If you have a question about what I believe all you have to do is ask. No need to guess or jump to conclusions. I do think freezing settlements is a step that Israel has to make and will go a long way toward peace. That being said, so will ceasing to fire rockets into your neighbors cities. It is incumbent on both parties to make concessions. Just like Israel doesn't get the right to say this is our land so we will continue to build these settlements, Hamas doesn't get to say we are desperate people so it is okay to lob rockets into population centers. Equity Ooh Aah Equity.
But in this particular case(the blockade that this thread originally began discussing), I understand and agree with the blockade. When 1000's of rockets are fired into your population centers you are at war. You do not allow other nations to tell you that you can't attempt to prevent these rockets from getting to your enemies. Your job is to stop this from happening. If the Hamas govt. doesn't like the blockade and wants it to end then they should stop firing rockets at Israel. Problem solved. No need for blockade. At that point the two govt's can work together to prevent further rockets from being fired. But unfortunately we aren't looking at a situation where a rogue group is firing at Israel and the govt is doing what they can to stop these attacks. It's the govt that is actually doing the firing. So who does Israel go to for help? If Israel stops their blockade and the missiles keep coming, and keep getting more powerful, more deadly, and have more range what happens next? What does Israel do? What does the world do? Or have we decided that when you are desperate you should be able to fire rockets at innocent people.
2.) Your solution sounds great, too bad it's not that easy. If it was, it would have been done. And stop bringing in Europeans???? Is that any different then a conservative saying stop bringing in Mexicans? IF we are starting this harmonious single state shouldn't all people be able to emigrate there