Off Topic · Is it time the US start rethinking it's foreign policy with Israel? (page 3)
oohah wrote:Bippity10 wrote:
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?Wow. Why is it always incumbent on Palestine? how about Israel stops opening up illegal settlements? how about Israel actually adheres to a ceasefire which Hamas actually did then Israel violated last year? Wouldn't that go a long way toward peace as well?
Equity Bippity equity.
So once again I ask, what is the solution?One state, everyone lives together Christians, Muslim, and Jew. Nobody has more or less rights. The state is there to protect all people's safety and basic human rights, not one specific group. And stop bringing in Europeans. It may sound crazy but that is my solution.
oohah
1.) I agree with you about the settlements issue but we were not talking about the settlements, we were talking about the blockade. Also if you know the history, cease fires have happened and been violated by both sides. Can't point fingers at either one. Which one of the 80 million broken cease fires are you talking about?
As I have said before I disagree with some of what the Israeli's have done and agree on others. Same with the Palestinians. The settlements are a hot button issue with me, and you and I are on the same page. Don't jump to conclusions about what my opinions are on everything just because I disagree with you on another issue. That's the mistake made on this site a lot. Because I agreed with Larry Brown on one or two things I was said to agree with him on all, and was considered a lover. There is no need to guess with me. If you have a question about what I believe all you have to do is ask. No need to guess or jump to conclusions. I do think freezing settlements is a step that Israel has to make and will go a long way toward peace. That being said, so will ceasing to fire rockets into your neighbors cities. It is incumbent on both parties to make concessions. Just like Israel doesn't get the right to say this is our land so we will continue to build these settlements, Hamas doesn't get to say we are desperate people so it is okay to lob rockets into population centers. Equity Ooh Aah Equity.
But in this particular case(the blockade that this thread originally began discussing), I understand and agree with the blockade. When 1000's of rockets are fired into your population centers you are at war. You do not allow other nations to tell you that you can't attempt to prevent these rockets from getting to your enemies. Your job is to stop this from happening. If the Hamas govt. doesn't like the blockade and wants it to end then they should stop firing rockets at Israel. Problem solved. No need for blockade. At that point the two govt's can work together to prevent further rockets from being fired. But unfortunately we aren't looking at a situation where a rogue group is firing at Israel and the govt is doing what they can to stop these attacks. It's the govt that is actually doing the firing. So who does Israel go to for help? If Israel stops their blockade and the missiles keep coming, and keep getting more powerful, more deadly, and have more range what happens next? What does Israel do? What does the world do? Or have we decided that when you are desperate you should be able to fire rockets at innocent people.
2.) Your solution sounds great, too bad it's not that easy. If it was, it would have been done. And stop bringing in Europeans???? Is that any different then a conservative saying stop bringing in Mexicans? IF we are starting this harmonious single state shouldn't all people be able to emigrate there
bitty41 wrote:Silverfuel wrote:I want to wait to find out why the commandos boarded the vessel. The terrorists that attacked the hotels in Mumbai infiltrated through the sea so I know the Indian coast guard is very strict over the last 2 years.But the fact remains that this was International waters and they have no right to stop aid convoys from coming into the Gaza strip. If every military in the world started acting preemptively and killing civilians because they might be aiding terrorists what the hell kind of world would be living in. To complicate matters further this was a Turkish vessel which means this was an attack on a NATO member by a non-NATO member. At the very least the US would be issuing sanctions.
Well since our military under Bush became the role model for pre-actively striking out against people without the benefit of solid information and then shrugging it off as collateral damage, we should be the last ones to complain about that. That said there is no rationale for what Israel did, they are just trying to instigate a war.
Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.
Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.
But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.
The graphics depict some views I agree with.
YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.
I am bias emotionally on this one.
I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?
bitty41 wrote:Bippity10 wrote:I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.^this pisses me off. If you have something to offer up towards the discussion then do so but just chiming for a potshot is a cheap move. I'm not trying to change minds or prevent people from offering up opposing opinions this is strictly a dialogue (relating to the Freedom Flotilla incident). And if you really want to get technical the last time I checked I'm a American citizen and as such my tax dollars as well as millions other Americans tax dollars go towards Israeli's military so yea we can kinda of judge them from afar.
BINGO. What she said.
Bippity10 wrote:bitty41 wrote:Bippity10 wrote:I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.^this pisses me off. If you have something to offer up towards the discussion then do so but just chiming for a potshot is a cheap move. I'm not trying to change minds or prevent people from offering up opposing opinions this is strictly a dialogue (relating to the Freedom Flotilla incident). And if you really want to get technical the last time I checked I'm a American citizen and as such my tax dollars as well as millions other Americans tax dollars go towards Israeli's military so yea we can kinda of judge them from afar.
Who cares if it pisses you off. It's not a pot shot, it's how I feel. I do not apologize for that. If New Jersey was smuggling in arms and lobbing rockets into downtown Manhattan your perspective would be different. Rockets are indiscriminately fired into their cities and yet the world asks them to let all the ships through. Would we? Would anyone? If we started lobbing rockets into Mexico on a daily basis what would the world's reaction be? What would yours be?
Of course you can judge Israel from afar. No one is telling you to stop so don't take it personally. Just saying, when judging a situation realize that you are seeing things completely different then those people that are actually sitting in the country where rockets are fired at them on a regular basis. What country would put up with that. I disagree with a lot of what Israel does, but blockades to protect your country are not one of them for me. I also was not on the ship, so am cautious with my condemnation or side taking.
What country would put up with 100 years of forced occupation where its indigenous people are treated as second class citizens and randomly labelled as terrorists for trying to win their country back?
Bippity10 wrote:
I certainly don't support a person strapping a bomb on and blowing up people. I also don't support a phosphorous grenade launched into a school that kills women and children slowly. But the fact of the matter is that Palestinians are desperate. When people are as desperate as that, nobody should be surprised that they do desperate horrible things.Personally I am surprised when anyone does horrible things. There are a myriad of ways to come to an agreement that don't include killing some random person that is just trying to live their life and who may even be on your side. After seeing the social change that Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Gandhi brought about, I do believe that there are better ways.
But you are willing to ignore hundred years of occupation and oppression? My my, aren't we selective. How is that less horrible?
Bippity10 wrote:oohah wrote:The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.
And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.
Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?
By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?
***
Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.
Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_...
For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?
***
Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.
I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.
By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.
I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.
oohah
So once again I ask, what is the solution?
Admitting that Palestinian rights have been violated for the past hundred years would be a good start.
loweyecue wrote:Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.
Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.
But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.
The graphics depict some views I agree with.
YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.
I am bias emotionally on this one.
I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?
your not even close enough to respond to. your factually impotent.
Lots of aid and humanitarian supplies get through to Gaza all of the time. The ships are inspected to see that they don't contain weapons and then sent to Gaza. Israel has offered to the recent flotilla and now to this new ship to let it through if they allow an inspection.
The real purpose of sending these ships is not to send aid. That could be done so easily, without incident, and the people of Gaza would receive the needed supplies. The real reason that the ships are going is to create negative public opinion against Israel. And they have been successful. They are winning the PR war. The violent confrontation aboard the ship that the Israeli's boarded was planned and staged by some of the more violent of the protestors/demonstators. Most of the others were there thinking it was a peaceful mission.
I am feeling quite sad and worried.....not because the Palestinians are winning the PR war, but because violence is heating up in the world again. We have the Korean situation; Iran; Iraq; Afghanistan; Pakistan; and now Gaza-Israel. It doesn't bode well for peace. Anger and hatred is rising in the world consciousness. Even on this thread. I've got to go do some meditation now. More later.
Bippity10 wrote:Markji wrote:fer during war. It isn't right and it isn't fair. And I wish there wasn't any fighting and everyone lived in peace and happiness.How to bring peace? Not by running a blockade and starting a confrontation which everyone knew was going to cause trouble. Bring peace by diffusing the tensions and stress in the collective consciousness of the region and in the individuals.
It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?
Bip, A well thought-out comment. It would be great if the leaders worked together to stop the violence, and establish some cooperation and trust.
Hell, USA can do it, why can't others.
We are not talking about "The Love Boat".
Yes people, the poor hungry palistinian is the true victim. Hezbollah is not interested in governing but funded to destroy Israel. Uneducated hungry people are very easy to motivate toward violence. Use a common external enemy to distract from the problem at hand. Destroying Israel won't feed these people. They'll dance in the streets for week then realize they are not needed anymore. Its very convienent: Blame Israel, blame the US but don't blame yourself or your elected leaders. Arafat was given billions and he did nothing with it. Its an old story.
Got bad people operating amung innocent who suffer under their agenda.
BLockade is there for a reason. Give no reason for it and lots of aid and support can get thru.
Lowrey, bone up on the facts. Palistine a sovereign nation? When? What is a "Palistinian"?
Israel vows to stop aid ship as it approaches Gaza
FILE - the Irish-flagged ship the MV Rachel Corrie. The ship was named after an American college student crushed to death by an Israeli Army bulldozer while protesting house demolitions in Gaza. Greta Berlin, a spokesman for the Free Gaza group, said Friday June 4, 2010 the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie is heading directly to Gaza and will not stop in any port on the way. (AP Photo/FreeGaza.org) NO SALESJERUSALEM (AP) -
Israel vowed Friday to keep an Irish aid ship from breaching its blockade of the Gaza Strip, setting the stage for another maritime showdown as the vessel made its way toward the impoverished Palestinian territory.
The fear of more violence loomed large as Israel stood fast by its blockade, despite rising pressure to lift it following Monday's raid against another aid ship that left nine activists dead.
An Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate on the ship, Mairead Corrigan, said activists were determined to press on but would offer no resistance if Israeli forces came aboard.
"We will sit down," she told The Associated Press in a telephone interview from the ship. "They will probably arrest us ... But there will be no resistance."
The Free Gaza Movement said on its website that the ship, the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie, would reach Gaza by Saturday morning.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his Cabinet on Thursday night that the boat would not reach the territory. On Friday, Israel's foreign ministry said the policy had not changed.
"There is a maritime blockade on Gaza," ministry director Yossi Gal told reporters in Jerusalem.
The new effort to break the blockade will test Israel's resolve as it faces a wave of international outrage following Monday's botched raid, in which Israeli commandos clashed with activists after rappelling onto a ship from helicopters. Eight Turks and an American of Turkish descent were killed and hundreds of others on the ship were arrested and later deported.
The fallout has increased pressure to end the embargo that has plunged Gaza's 1.5 million residents deeper into poverty and sharply raised Mideast tensions at a time the U.S. is making a new push for regional peace.
Israel has urged the activists to bring the ship to the southern Israeli port of Ashdod and promised to transfer all cargo save any weapons or weapons components. The activists rejected the Israeli offer.
Netanyahu has instructed the Israeli military to avoid harming the passengers on board the Rachel Corrie, a participant at Thursday night's Cabinet meeting said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.
Gal said Israel has "no desire to board the ship. If the ship decides to sail to the (southern Israeli) port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it."
In Washington, the State Department said U.S. officials had been in touch with "multiple" countries, including the Israeli and Irish governments, about the latest effort.
"Everyone wants to avoid a repetition of this tragic incident," spokesman P.J. Crowley said. He added that the U.S. had been in contact numerous times with Israeli authorities in recent weeks. "We urged caution and restraint," he said.
International condemnation continued Friday, with protests in Syria, Greece, Bahrain and Malaysia, where some demonstrators burned Israeli flags and carried mock coffins. In Norway, the military canceled a seminar scheduled for later this month because an Israeli army officer was to have lectured.
Israel has allowed ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009.
Israeli claims the activists ambushed the commandos after they descended onto the board from helicopters on Monday, and the military and Turkish TV have released videotape that backs up that claim. Returning activists admitted fighting with the Israeli commandos but insisted their actions were in self-defense because the ships were being boarded in international waters by a military force.
All of the violence took place on the lead boat, the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying hundreds of activists sponsored by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. Israel outlawed the group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.
Activists say Israel sabotaged the previous aid flotilla, but Israeli defense officials said Friday only that unspecified "actions" were taken when the boats were still far from Gaza that delayed the flotilla. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was classified.
Activists said immediately after the raid that the violence would not deter them from sending more ships, and the Rachel Corrie continued on course for Gaza, carrying hundreds of tons of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and concrete. Eleven passengers were on board, including Corrigan and a former U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday.
"We will not be diverted anywhere else. We head to Gaza in order to deliver the humanitarian aid and to break the siege of Gaza," Corrigan said. "As human rights activists we want to see Israel uphold human rights and international law and end the military occupation of Palestine and move forward."
Halliday told Israel's Channel 2 TV the cargo had been inspected three different times in Ireland by trade unions and government officials, "so we are 100 percent confident that there is nothing that is offensive or dangerous or otherwise." He acknowledged that Israel might object to the 500 tons of cement on board; Israel claims militants can use the cement for battle purposes.
The vessel is named for an American college student who was crushed to death in 2003 by a bulldozer while protesting Israeli house demolitions in Gaza.
Greta Berlin, a spokesman for the Free Gaza group, said in Nicosia that the cargo ship was headed directly to Gaza and would not stop in any port on the way.
The standoff has particularly strained Israel's relationship with once-close ally Turkey.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan kept up the tough rhetoric on Friday, telling a crowd that "nobody should test Turkey's patience."
"Even if the world turns a blind eye to the massacre, Turkey will never do so," he said in a speech in the central Turkish city of Konya that was punctuated with calls of "down with Israel" from the crowd.
Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc also announced Turkey was downsizing its economic and defense cooperation with Israel.
Some 20,000 people, meanwhile, waved Turkish, Palestinian and Hezbollah flags at a memorial service in Istanbul for an American-born IHH member who activists say was killed while taking pictures of the Israeli commando raid.
Anger also was high as 10,000 people turned out to bury the youngest of the nine activists killed, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan in the central Turkish town of Kayseri.
"Neither I nor his mother or brother have any grief," his father, Ahmet Dogan, told the AP as he arranged flowers on his son's coffin before prayers started. "We believe he became a martyr and God accepts martyrs to paradise."
___
Associated Press Writers Sarah El Deeb in Cairo, David Rising in Istanbul, Menelaos Hadjicostis in Nicosia, Matti Friedman in Jerusalem, Selcan Hacaoglu in Istanbul and Burhan Ozbilici in Kayseri contributed to this report.
© 2010 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
Ahmadinejad warns opposition, blasts Israeli raid
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - The Iranian president on Friday warned the country's opposition against straying from the path of the founder of the Islamic Revolution and slammed Israel for a deadly raid this week on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke before hundreds of thousands gathered at the shrine of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and the surrounding grounds in southern Tehran for a ceremony marking his death 21 years ago. The Khomeini-led Islamic revolution toppled the U.S.-backed shah and brought hard-line Islamists to power in 1979.
"Those who deviate from the Imam's path will be banished by the people," Ahmadinejad said.
The stark warning came just days ahead of the opposition's mass rally planned on the anniversary of last June's disputed presidential election. The rally is to be the first opposition gathering in months and authorities have warned they will confront any unauthorized demonstrations.
The Iranian opposition claims Ahmadinejad won the June 12 election through massive vote fraud. It had rallied for months against the election results but was met by a heavy government crackdown, which the opposition says killed 80 people during street protests so far.
More than 100 opposition figures and activists were put on a mass trial, and 80 of them were sentenced to death or given prison terms ranging from six months to 15 years.
But Ahmadinejad reiterated Friday that the election was "100 percent free" and added he is "bound by duty to protect the people's vote."
The annual commemoration of Khomeini's death is part mournful ceremony, part political rally for the base that sustains Iran's hard-liners amid rising dissatisfaction with inflation, unemployment, social constraints - and an opposition movement that has persisted despite the crackdown.
Ahmadinejad, known for his anti-Israeli rhetoric, used the podium at the shrine grounds Friday to blast Israel's commando raid on the international flotilla off Gaza's shores, calling it "barbaric" and urging the dismantling of the "Zionist regime."
"They have lost their self-control and ability to think," he said of the Israeli raid that killed nine activists on the Turkish flagship in the flotilla Monday.
"Thousands such freedom flotillas across the world will sail out with freedom fighters, to scrap the Zionist rule and bring peace and freedom to all mankind," added Ahmadinejad.
Iran's supreme leader and Khomeini's successor, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, also criticized the raid as a "mistake" that "showed how barbaric the Zionists are."
Khamenei, who has final say on all state matters in Iran, also indirectly criticized opposition leaders, saying that some who revered the late Khomeini now "speak differently" than before. He also warned the opposition to carefully examine what he said was support that comes from "foreign enemies of Iran, enemies of the Imam."
Khomeini's grandson took the stage as he does every year on the anniversary, but this time his speech was repeatedly interrupted by anti-opposition chants from Ahmadinejad supporters. The chanting was apparently a jab at Hassan Khomeini's perceived support for opposition leaders.
Khomeini left the podium before finishing. "The dignity of the anniversary does not deserve what this small group is doing," he said.
The semiofficial Ilna news agency said other Khomeini relatives who attended the ceremony left in protest over the incident.
State TV carried the ceremony live, saying it was attended by 2 million people, including more than 700,000 Iranians who were bused in from various provinces.
Khomeini is still deeply popular and respected among Iranians, including veterans of the eight-year war that former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein launched against Iran in the 1980s.
The TV reported that after the Tehran ceremony, there were anti-Israeli demonstrations in several Iranian cities and towns following Friday prayers.
© 2010 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
Nalod wrote:loweyecue wrote:Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.
Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.
But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.
The graphics depict some views I agree with.
YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.
I am bias emotionally on this one.
I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?
your not even close enough to respond to. your factually impotent.
Do you deny that Israeli military action has killed Palestinian civilians?
Or that they keep increasing the bounds of their settlements each year?
firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?
This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.
loweyecue wrote:It is an emotional issue for the entire world which has been going on for centuries. I would guess that you are of Lebanonese or Arab American origins which would make it more personal for you. But try not to take it personally.firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.
Markji wrote:loweyecue wrote:It is an emotional issue for the entire world which has been going on for centuries. I would guess that you are of Lebanonese or Arab American origins which would make it more personal for you. But try not to take it personally.firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.
I am an Indian, and not of Arabic or Islamic origin. It is personal to me because of some other reasons which I will not get into over here. When people write random generalizations like what's been posted here, its hard NOT to take it personally.
loweyecue wrote:Markji wrote:loweyecue wrote:It is an emotional issue for the entire world which has been going on for centuries. I would guess that you are of Lebanonese or Arab American origins which would make it more personal for you. But try not to take it personally.firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.
I am an Indian, and not of Arabic or Islamic origin. It is personal to me because of some other reasons which I will not get into over here. When people write random generalizations like what's been posted here, its hard NOT to take it personally.
I assume you are Asian Indian as opposed to Native American Indian.?
The Indian sub-continent has experienced a somewhat similar situation as Palestine. India and Pakistan gained independence Aug 15, 1947 after being ruled by Great Britain who divided up the sub-continent into 2 nations against Gandhi's desire. Fighting immediately erupted and a number of wars and numerous conflicts have continued and the governance of Kashmir is still in dispute and is partially occupied by both nations.
Palestine/Israel gained independence in May 1948 (9 months later)after being ruled by Great Britain, who divided up the area into Palestine and Israel, and then walked away, knowing full well that there would be immediate bloodshed. The wars and conflicts have continued since then. One would have thought that Britain would have done a better job in overseeing the granting of independence and maintaining peace.
Markji wrote:loweyecue wrote:Markji wrote:loweyecue wrote:It is an emotional issue for the entire world which has been going on for centuries. I would guess that you are of Lebanonese or Arab American origins which would make it more personal for you. But try not to take it personally.firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.
I am an Indian, and not of Arabic or Islamic origin. It is personal to me because of some other reasons which I will not get into over here. When people write random generalizations like what's been posted here, its hard NOT to take it personally.
I assume you are Asian Indian as opposed to Native American Indian.?The Indian sub-continent has experienced a somewhat similar situation as Palestine. India and Pakistan gained independence Aug 15, 1947 after being ruled by Great Britain who divided up the sub-continent into 2 nations against Gandhi's desire. Fighting immediately erupted and a number of wars and numerous conflicts have continued and the governance of Kashmir is still in dispute and is partially occupied by both nations.
Palestine/Israel gained independence in May 1948 (9 months later)after being ruled by Great Britain, who divided up the area into Palestine and Israel, and then walked away, knowing full well that there would be immediate bloodshed. The wars and conflicts have continued since then. One would have thought that Britain would have done a better job in overseeing the granting of independence and maintaining peace.
Your history is completely accurate, but that is not why this is such a personal issue for me. But lets not discuss that here.
There is one very stark difference between India-Pakistan and Israel-Palestine scenarios. Both Indians and Pakistanis (Hindus and Muslims) were indigenous people of the region from before the British Occupation. No disrespect to Indian Muslims or Pakistani Hindus but the division was aligned along religious lines. So even if you don't agree with the politics of the split (which I agree with BTW), you have to admit that the Pakistanis as well as the Indians had rights to the land. Israel on the other hand was created for jewish refugees of WWII and from Day 1 Israel by definition became an occupation of Palestinian lands. The UN chose British occupied Palestine for the creation of Israel (1946?) that was an extremely shortsighted decision in my opinion.
What transpired since then is well known and both sides are equally at fault. Whether people like it or not, Israel has subjected Palestinians to life as refugees in their own country! This is not an acceptable situation for any country anywhere on earth. And Palestine does not have an army or military, so yes they have to resort to launching rockets if they ever want to gain true independence.
I don't see that as very dissimilar to how Indians and Pakistanis fought the British occupation and if it was in style back then they too would have been labelled "terrorists" by the holier than thou sanctimonious know-it-alls.
I don't support the destruction of Israel or the death of innocent people on either side, I am not anti semitic have lots of jewish friends and have no problem with jews in general. But to,compare Palestinians attacking Israel with Mexicans firing rockets at us is crass and despicable and shows zero compassion for what the Palestinians have suffered for the last 60 -100 years. This is the type of statement that gets my blood boiling.