Knicks · New coach please (page 4)
nykshaknbake wrote:Like you have said many times nixluva, why are you looking at the -insert past time period_? All I care about is now and it looks like Doc RIvers has won a championship and been to the finals and is advancing to the 2nd round NOW. Double standard.He probably could have been justifiably fired back then. I didn't follow the Celtics back then at all. But he's been coaching well since the turnaround. He certainly out coached your dad this series. Let me ask you what is a coach's job?
nixluva wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:Andrew wrote:Doc Rivers should be fired for almost losing the first 2 games.Agreed. Then we could sign him.
Doc couldn't win a thing in Boston before KG n Allen. Doc only won 33 games then the next year only 23 games the 2 seasons just before they put the big 3 together. Should he have been fired?
He had been good coach before those dreadful seasons and once they added KG n Allen he won 66 games and a title! Ainge used good judgement and kept Doc and concentrated on improving the roster. That's what we need to do here.
As usual you totally missed the point I was making. The reason I brought up the past is cuz Doc looked just as lost and inept when he didnt have the horses. Then magically the year he gets KG n Allen he wins 66 games and a title!!! Gee he got so much better once he got 2 HOF'ers. Suddenly it all fell into place and Doc was good again!
I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements. Both TD and Fields had rough 1st playoff showings. They're kids and I'm sure they were a bit overwhelmed. But im glad Mike played them despite that. They'll be better for the experience.
Nalod wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:nixluva wrote:Coaches always look better when they have what they need to win. Some here really believe that if we played Randolph, Brewer, Shelden, AC or Brown that it would make the difference between us winning or not? Once CB and STAT got injured it really changed things. The Knicks were already underdogs.IMO changing the coach isnt the answer no more than it was for the Celtics to get rid of Doc when he was losing big before they added KG and Allen. There's no real difference in the two situations. The most important thing is what the GM does to complete the roster upgrade. If Mike could get his teams to the WCF's there's no reason in the world he can't lead this team to the ECF's so long as we improve the team where needed.
I agree with what you're saying here, but the fact that D'antoni is probably the least defensive minded head coach in the history of the game is grounds for his dismissal.
Do you have a transcript of his thoughts?A transcripts of his practices or time outs?
We have something even better! video feed of the games!
martin wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:Like you have said many times nixluva, why are you looking at the -insert past time period_? All I care about is now and it looks like Doc RIvers has won a championship and been to the finals and is advancing to the 2nd round NOW. Double standard.He probably could have been justifiably fired back then. I didn't follow the Celtics back then at all. But he's been coaching well since the turnaround. He certainly out coached your dad this series. Let me ask you what is a coach's job?
nixluva wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:Andrew wrote:Doc Rivers should be fired for almost losing the first 2 games.Agreed. Then we could sign him.
Doc couldn't win a thing in Boston before KG n Allen. Doc only won 33 games then the next year only 23 games the 2 seasons just before they put the big 3 together. Should he have been fired?
He had been good coach before those dreadful seasons and once they added KG n Allen he won 66 games and a title! Ainge used good judgement and kept Doc and concentrated on improving the roster. That's what we need to do here.you don't see any type of parallel?
Just keep firing coaches until the right one gets you to finals?
nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.
Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
i'd say average D plus elite O equals championship caliber. but i'm just pulling that out of my ass. i'm sure there might be a way to back that up.
BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
What coach would do bad with improvements to a squad?
The reality of it all is that we may not get exactly what D'AnToni needs and if not then what?
BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
http://blog.bandwagonknick.com/2011/04/2...
One thing to keep in mind. Look at the top 15 teams ranked by defensive efficiency over at Hoopdata. Every team has a player that protects the rim capably, and in the case of Miami and Philadelphia (where that's debatable), they have elite wing defenders. The Knicks have neither. Even in Phoenix when D'Antoni had a defense ranked around 13th to 15th, he had Shawn Marion and Raja Bell that guarded multiple positions well. D'Antoni has never had a strong interior defender in this three years in New York -- Turiaf is the closest, but he showed all season (and in this series) that he can't stay healthy. And his best wing defenders got traded to Denver for you-know-who.
martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
I think Mike d'A is a cerebral coach. One who has made every coach in the NBA at least consider his principals. On offense, I don't think I've heard anyone in polite conversation extolling his defensive philosophy. He is fairly radical and perhaps arrogant to a fault. I'm sure in his mind he had a plan that was not executed against Boston.
The guys are all supporting each other and saying the right things. They have all the good excuses in the world. I just can't bring myself to say that this coach can get you a trophy. Games 1 and 2 these guys fought their hearts out and play great team defense. Except TD in game 2 as Rondo took his two step lead to deliver pin point passes and momentum for the drives. I've heard announcers all year discuss playing off Rondo as a viable option. Perhaps ...but not with what the Knicks had in an injured Stoudamire for help.
Without instruction AC comes in in Game 4 and pressures the ball. I could feel the run coming as TD pushed the ball the last couple minutes. Tight the last game and a half the Knicks were finally going hard to the basket to draw fouls knowing it was the only way to get back in down 20 something and playing loose. But was that it? When needed Boston tightened down at a crucial time as always. AC hit a couple big shots. Big heart. I could see him getting let go and finding a ring or two in Miami. Still it wasn't enough. I seem to recall AC coming in and pressuring Boston's guards and getting called for a foul and getting benched. I think he should have played about 20+ minutes a game with what he showed since the trade and Chauncey being out. And d'A should have told TD to try pressuring the ball since he obviously was instructed to play off or he'd have been benched for someone else Perhaps an occasional man/zone switch. Doesn't seem to me after giving up 20 assists you try to have him defend the same way next game. Or were his injuries that bad?
eViL wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
i'd say average D plus elite O equals championship caliber. but i'm just pulling that out of my ass. i'm sure there might be a way to back that up.
Define "elite" or post examples. The best is always Magic's Lakers, but IMO Magic is a top 3 player to ever play the game and he was paired with Kareem, who just might be another of the 3. That team was stocked top to bottom and hardly comparable to whatever brand of "elite" the Knicks might hope to achieve.
martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the extent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (even though he was also a premier scorer).
So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average; at his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness; he bristled at their interventions toward those ends and left because of it or was borderline fired; his teams seem to eschew heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.
No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?
BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the entent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (also a premier scorer).
So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average, in his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness, he bristled at their interventions toward those ends, his teams seem to eschew more heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.
No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?
MDA was not largely responsible for the roster. The stingy owner was; recall trading away Joe Johnson and many multiple draft picks because of need for cash. I think MDA was defacto GM for like a month and completely failed in his 1 maneuver by extending Banks.
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads? Or do we stick with just labeling it average career defensive accomplishments without actually looking at the actual roster and what was taking place? I mean really, if Pat Riley was coaching a starting lineup of 5 JJ's do we call him an inept offensive coach or do we look at the hands of worst player and call it a bad roster?
Yes TD had an awful series and I can't believe how bad he was, but as a coach you have a certain trust built up in players that you've had for a while. Some guys actually rose to the occasion like Jared, Walker and to a certain extent Shawne. The biggest issue is that we lost the most experienced floor leader we had. Billups wasn't even the perfect guy for the job, but he was important to the success of the team. Neither STAT nor Melo are players you expect to run a team like a PG. Lebron and Wade can do that kind of thing, but our top players are in need of a PG that can set them up to do what they do best.
Mike isn't perfect as no coach is, but we've yet to actually give him what he needs to succeed fully. #1 is a PG that has real PG vision, passing and ball handling skills to take advantage of the great scorers we have. A PG to spread the ball and hit guys in the right spots and break down defenses. The next part is to get a bigtime Rebounder/Defender in the middle. That's what we missed in this series that could easily have put us over the top. All of a sudden all those supposed coaching flaws aren't that big of a deal.
For example, look at Thibs. He doesn't really have to worry about coming up with some special play when he has Rose to create something out of nothing or Noah to shut down the paint and get key boards. It's all part of the deal to have the right players in place to make a coach look good. People complain that Mike didn't play AC even tho he actually did. So they say he didn't do it soon enough, but they forget that we've seen TD have stretches of bad play only to explode and get us back in games. It's all easy to armchair QB. Many felt JJ shouldn't play and he wound up being a key player that almost got us a win.
JrZyHuStLa wrote:loweyecue wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:loweyecue wrote:After Billups and STAT went down we didn't even have a snowball's chance in hell.After Billups and Stat went down, the execution was still inexcuseable, and they didn't play with the same intensity for games 3 and 4 like they did in games 1 and 2.
Its the responsibility of a head coach to instill hard nosed intensity throughout a playoff series, not just 2 games.
Show me the last time a head coach did his job then.
Doc Rivers.
People really don't remember the past. Doc almost got fired until he got real players.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sto...
People have such short memories.
martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the entent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (also a premier scorer).
So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average, in his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness, he bristled at their interventions toward those ends, his teams seem to eschew more heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.
No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?
MDA was not largely responsible for the roster. The stingy owner was; recall trading away Joe Johnson and many multiple draft picks because of need for cash. I think MDA was defacto GM for like a month and completely failed in his 1 maneuver by extending Banks.
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads? Or do we stick with just labeling it average career defensive accomplishments without actually looking at the actual roster and what was taking place? I mean really, if Pat Riley was coaching a starting lineup of 5 JJ's do we call him an inept offensive coach or do we look at the hands of worst player and call it a bad roster?
Since you wont answer the question I will. I have little confidence in his defensive acumen.
BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the entent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (also a premier scorer).
So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average, in his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness, he bristled at their interventions toward those ends, his teams seem to eschew more heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.
No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?
MDA was not largely responsible for the roster. The stingy owner was; recall trading away Joe Johnson and many multiple draft picks because of need for cash. I think MDA was defacto GM for like a month and completely failed in his 1 maneuver by extending Banks.
Care to put an assessment on the defensive capabilities of his squads? Or do we stick with just labeling it average career defensive accomplishments without actually looking at the actual roster and what was taking place? I mean really, if Pat Riley was coaching a starting lineup of 5 JJ's do we call him an inept offensive coach or do we look at the hands of worst player and call it a bad roster?
Since you wont answer the question I will. I have little confidence in his defensive acumen.
hey, you answer mine and I'll take a crack at you question.
we're gunning for Oden next spring, either we could be blatant about this quest, fire Doc and hire Joe the Alcoholic Counter Guy from the Charlestown Store 24 … or we could keep Doc and guarantee six more months of close losses, defensive breakdowns, stagnant offense, convoluted excuses and an NBA coach substituting players every 90 seconds like he's coaching a hockey team. Unfortunately for Oden lovers, Danny Ainge and the Boston owners believe their team still has a chance -- and they might be right, given the lack of talent in the East this season -- so Joe the Alcoholic Counter Guy is out. And so is Doc.
OR this observation of his coaching mistakes:
Following the game, Doc blamed Pierce for failing to box out on the missed free throw, which was interesting for two reasons. First, Pierce DID box out. I recorded the game on TiVo. The ball just bounced over his head. It happens. And second, instead of putting in two rebounders with Trevor Ariza at the line (a poor free throw shooter), Doc went in the other direction and yanked Kendrick Perkins (our tallest guy) for Ryan Gomes (who's 6-foot-7), leaving two small forwards on the low block to grab a potential Ariza miss with less than 90 seconds to play. I mentioned that he's a career 60 percent FT shooter, right? The important thing to remember is that the whole thing was Pierce's fault because he was too short to grab the rebound. Whatever. The players screwed up the "little things" down the stretch, as always. It's the hallmark of a poorly coached team, whether you're watching Doc and the Celtics, Terry Stotts and the Bucks or whomever else.
Now Doc is a genius and a winner and always makes the right move. You think it hasn't helped that he has WINNERS on his roster and guys that give 110% along with great talent? Better players always make a coach look smarter. All of these criticisms sound familiar cuz its the kind of stuff people bash Mike for. The reason is that when you don't have clear cut players that can get things done and you have to decide between role players that are pretty much all flawed and not that good. You can't make the right decision all the time. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!! That's why Pat Riley once coached a 15 win team in Miami and LB couldn't get anything out of the Knicks.
BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:nixluva wrote:I guarantee that MDA will be a lot better as soon as we make the needed improvements.Agreed. However, is there anything in his resume to suggest he'll ever coach an above average defensive team? And is average good enough?
Agreed. Is there anything to suggest he could not with defensive players?
How about this exercise. When in PHO, Mike's teams were either #1 or #2 in Offensive Efficiency each year, but their Def Eff was ranked #16, 17, 13, 16 over that same 4 year span.
Core players: Amare, Raja, Marion, Nash, Diaw, Barbosa.
Objectively, did his teams under perform defensively? They certainly, by all accounts and at best, were average. Raja is second team all-defense and Shawne Marion was first team in 2010, so he at least had the high capability. Nash is a below average defender and so is Amare. I am trying to figure out if there was even some semblance of a C for PHO over that 4 years: I see Kurt Thomas was there the year Amare goes down and was there another half season. Shaq was also half season in last year.
Can a team with no C's, Amare and Nash be a top 10 defensive team? What's their potential?
I would say that his teams under-performed defensively and slightly over-performed offensively.
Here for stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Martin, those 4 years of League Average defense where the pinnacle of his career. He was Da Man in Phoenix and presumably largely responsible for that roster you rightly slight. Still, he did not have the confidence of his GM and owner to the extent that many still don't believe he wanted Shaq (even though he was also a premier scorer).
So again, his career defensive accomplishments peaked at average; at his pinnacle management lost confidence in his defensive attentiveness; he bristled at their interventions toward those ends and left because of it or was borderline fired; his teams seem to eschew heavy footed centers in deference to guys with jumpers or bait-biting lips.
No one can disprove hope and hypotheticals, but seriously, what's your confidence level in him?
I remember watching a lot of Phoenix when MDA was there, and their defensive mentality was if they were beat by their man, to let them score instead of fouling them, and to instead inbound the ball and push it back at them. That was MDA's pace.
Now- you can't help but wonder if MDA preferred them to allow the opponent to score instead of fouling them, if that mentality creeped to the extent of - I'll play half hearted on defense, but that is o.k., because we're about pace and letting the opponent take quick shots.