Knicks · Knicks' or Cavs' situation? (page 1)

Although Carmelo and Amare are really good players, I think we are just too hamstrung in terms of all the picks we've given up and lack of cap flexibility to be able to advance this group beyond anything more than a first round, one and done franchise in the high 40 win total during the season.

"Situation" or "ownership"?

It was Dolan who pressed the panic button.

I miss Ernie Grnfeld

Meanwhile, back in OKC

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/as-nba-draft-approaches-washington-wizards-want-to-continue-following-oklahoma-city-thunder-model/2011/05/17/AFiew55G_story.html

"It’s actually just a common-sense, scouting-based approach that emphasizes long-term rewards instead of quick fixes for franchises starting over. Many basketball operations officials have drawn from the plan Presti developed shortly after he was hired to run the then-Seattle SuperSonics in 2007.

Presti traded high-priced veterans, stockpiling first-round draft picks and creating salary-cap flexibility. He convinced ownership to be patient while the team lost 121 games combined during the 2007-08 and 2008-09 seasons and completed the move from Seattle to Oklahoma City. And he jump-started the franchise’s revival by picking forward Kevin Durant second overall in the 2007 draft.

For all of the wise basketball and financial decisions Presti has made, he enjoyed much good fortune in getting the incredible Durant, who provided the foundation for the Thunder’s rapid ascent. In the history of the NBA, there are no other 6-foot-9 wing players who possess Durant’s shooting range and scoring ability, and there is no underestimating his impact in Presti’s success.

Luck is part of it, and Grunfeld had some when the Wizards won the 2010 draft lottery and wound up with Wall. Like Presti, Grunfeld jettisoned experienced players, made over the club’s roster and also freed up considerable cap space. But other general managers have gotten to this point as well."

- Jason Reid, Washington Post

Stat and Melo are bonafied elite players. Cap space and picks may turn out but often don't. I doubt we could hol donto either anyway. We'd just end up with a bunch of overpriced over the hill vets who DOlan saw on the highlight reel a few years ago.

Presti's ass was saved by getting Durant. if they don't have durant, that team isn't in the conf finals.

its all about luck -- if you get a superstar in the lotto, yea, its great.

i'd much rather have carmelo and stoudemire than kyrie irving and whoever they get at 4. its not even close.

I'm glad Cleveland had such a big night last night...hopefully it prevents the franchise from drifting off into oblivion. But in the mean time, the guys in Cleveland are hoping, down the road, that one of these picks might pan out into a star on Melo or STAT's level.

I'll gladly take our situation. I'm excited to see this team after a little tinkering and a full training camp together.

Curious to see what happens with Cleveland's capspace in the future though. Can't imagine any big names hopping on the plane to Ohio.

Ah, the age old question: "To starphuch or not to Starphuch........That is the question"?

One has to endure seasons of pain to get to the place where it pays off.

It seems our esteemed owner cannot tolerate this.

I would say even by the sample of fans posting here that its better to have "stars" then wait for it in the draft.

As long as we keep trading our picks away as we do there is no other way.

IM resigned to what we do and hope for the best.

I really enjoyed rooting for Amare and our yoots early this past season. With Melo, I was not for the price we had to pay but come playoff time im up and cheering the first two games. Im hopeless.

What I want and we'll get are two different things.

My Net connections run deep. I saw the last Pro Basketball champion crowed in NY back in 1976 when the Nets beat Larry Brown's nuggets in a stunning come from behind victory lead by the Great DR. J. That was also the last ABA game played.

The only logical reason I some how keep to the knicks has to be my childhood were I went to Knick games with my uncle from 1971-72-73. He died the Summer of 1973 at the age of 47. Same Ailment I got surgery on at age 48. Medical progress is great!

My point? Nets are gonna be Brooklyn (my hometown)and one more catastrophic run by the knicks with another failed starphuch I could be detached from them providing the Nets do make good. I would be joined by legions of pedestrian fans who will jump on that bandwagon.

I am rooting for the knicks and while "Stars" are good to have no doubt, they bring an expectation with it.

When you see a rebuild and watch the players develope there is a bond. I do that so Im good with a rebuild.

Maybe its not just "winning" but taking ownership of a team and not just rooting for the jersey but the players. Ewing was our superstar. Amare is great, but he is 28. Melo the same. Clyde grew from NY. Willis was THE CAPTAIN! If you think of Earl Monroe his greatest years was when he took the league by storm and tore it up in Baltimore. He came to NY and had to sacrifice some of his game and injury did slow him a bit. With Knicks "earl the pearl" was he, but in Baltimore he was "Black Jesus".

I voted for "1" for the above reasons. Don't mean I don't root for this team to succeed.

As for rooting for the Nets again? I dunno if I can, but the more I follow the Knicks the more it smells like a product push to me. Dolan sure gave up a lot for Melo. I liked the guys we gave up. Now Im worried about Melos's tits.

I really don't think the Knicks are in a great position. The Bulls have a team of emerging talent at nearly every position and cap room and the Heat will always be the better team.

The trade always will be the wrong decision. Dallas has one superstar and a bunch of very good talent around him. The play was to develop Moz, Gallo, AR and spend cap room on someon like Deandre Jordan who can defend the goal while the big guys develop there games.

I don't think of us vs the Cavs as a referendum on the Melo trade itself. I hated the trade as soon as it included Felton. But the Cavs have a long uncertain road ahead of them. Building through the draft can produce the best results but it probably won't. I think we are in a tough spot as well, having given away all out assets and would have been better off with Felton, Stat, Moz, Galo and will. But I would rather be us than the Cavs now.

MaTT4281 wrote:I'm glad Cleveland had such a big night last night...hopefully it prevents the franchise from drifting off into oblivion. But in the mean time, the guys in Cleveland are hoping, down the road, that one of these picks might pan out into a star on Melo or STAT's level.

I'll gladly take our situation. I'm excited to see this team after a little tinkering and a full training camp together.

Curious to see what happens with Cleveland's capspace in the future though. Can't imagine any big names hopping on the plane to Ohio.

I gotta agree. This might be the year where I traded the number one overall pick if I had it. The Cavs need a few more lucky breaks before I even consider wanting to switch places with them.

There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

Nalod wrote:
Ah, the age old question: "To starphuch or not to Starphuch........That is the question"?

One has to endure seasons of pain to get to the place where it pays off.

It seems our esteemed owner cannot tolerate this.

I would say even by the sample of fans posting here that its better to have "stars" then wait for it in the draft.

As long as we keep trading our picks away as we do there is no other way.

IM resigned to what we do and hope for the best.

I really enjoyed rooting for Amare and our yoots early this past season. With Melo, I was not for the price we had to pay but come playoff time im up and cheering the first two games. Im hopeless.

What I want and we'll get are two different things.

My Net connections run deep. I saw the last Pro Basketball champion crowed in NY back in 1976 when the Nets beat Larry Brown's nuggets in a stunning come from behind victory lead by the Great DR. J. That was also the last ABA game played.

The only logical reason I some how keep to the knicks has to be my childhood were I went to Knick games with my uncle from 1971-72-73. He died the Summer of 1973 at the age of 47. Same Ailment I got surgery on at age 48. Medical progress is great!

My point? Nets are gonna be Brooklyn (my hometown)and one more catastrophic run by the knicks with another failed starphuch I could be detached from them providing the Nets do make good. I would be joined by legions of pedestrian fans who will jump on that bandwagon.

I am rooting for the knicks and while "Stars" are good to have no doubt, they bring an expectation with it.

When you see a rebuild and watch the players develope there is a bond. I do that so Im good with a rebuild.

Maybe its not just "winning" but taking ownership of a team and not just rooting for the jersey but the players. Ewing was our superstar. Amare is great, but he is 28. Melo the same. Clyde grew from NY. Willis was THE CAPTAIN! If you think of Earl Monroe his greatest years was when he took the league by storm and tore it up in Baltimore. He came to NY and had to sacrifice some of his game and injury did slow him a bit. With Knicks "earl the pearl" was he, but in Baltimore he was "Black Jesus".

I voted for "1" for the above reasons. Don't mean I don't root for this team to succeed.

As for rooting for the Nets again? I dunno if I can, but the more I follow the Knicks the more it smells like a product push to me. Dolan sure gave up a lot for Melo. I liked the guys we gave up. Now Im worried about Melos's tits.

Papabear Says

Nalod you are almost my age. Stay healthy my friend.

MS wrote:I really don't think the Knicks are in a great position. The Bulls have a team of emerging talent at nearly every position and cap room and the Heat will always be the better team.

The trade always will be the wrong decision. Dallas has one superstar and a bunch of very good talent around him. The play was to develop Moz, Gallo, AR and spend cap room on someon like Deandre Jordan who can defend the goal while the big guys develop there games.

I think you are right. The Miami situation was pretty unique. The Knicks had a team, assets, picks and cap space. They gave up a lot. Melo is very good and could be great but the Knicks were headed in the right direction before the trade.

Knicks would just be kicking the can down the road again. Like Jerz said, there isn't a Melo or a Stat in this draft and we would still have to give FAs a better reason than two top picks in a weak draft to come and play here.

MaTT4281 wrote:I'm glad Cleveland had such a big night last night...hopefully it prevents the franchise from drifting off into oblivion. But in the mean time, the guys in Cleveland are hoping, down the road, that one of these picks might pan out into a star on Melo or STAT's level.

I'll gladly take our situation. I'm excited to see this team after a little tinkering and a full training camp together.

Curious to see what happens with Cleveland's capspace in the future though. Can't imagine any big names hopping on the plane to Ohio.

This. Some people just glaze over the "lottery" part of lottery picks. Tanking seasons or waiting to build through lottery is a loser approach. You take the best players you can get with what assets you have and build according to a plan. Building through the lottery means you have no plan. Failing to plan is the same as planning to fail.

loweyecue wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:I'm glad Cleveland had such a big night last night...hopefully it prevents the franchise from drifting off into oblivion. But in the mean time, the guys in Cleveland are hoping, down the road, that one of these picks might pan out into a star on Melo or STAT's level.

I'll gladly take our situation. I'm excited to see this team after a little tinkering and a full training camp together.

Curious to see what happens with Cleveland's capspace in the future though. Can't imagine any big names hopping on the plane to Ohio.

This. Some people just glaze over the "lottery" part of lottery picks. Tanking seasons or waiting to build through lottery is a loser approach. You take the best players you can get with what assets you have and build according to a plan. Building through the lottery means you have no plan. Failing to plan is the same as planning to fail.

I don't totally disagree with this but I think the approach is either trade young players or trade picks. The Knicks traded a ton of both.

I'll take the elite players over the picks, especially this year. Nobody knows how the draft picks will turn out. The Cavs wasted two lottery picks after they got LeBron James, the Pistons got Darko out of one of the best draft classes ever, and Minny had two of the top six picks and messed that up. I also don't think that there's been an elite player drafted between Kevin Durant and Blake Griffin, and I wouldn't even call Blake "elite" right now.

I don't know if the Carmelo trade will pan out or not, and I understand why some people aren't comfortable with it, but I think it's worth the risk. The reality of the NBA right now is that there's a group of elite players that are going to control the league for the next few years, you're Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Melo, KG, Duncan, and Rose, and a large portion of that group is on it's way down. Miami is a concern, but you can only build so far and the team with Melo is better than the team without him.

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:I'm glad Cleveland had such a big night last night...hopefully it prevents the franchise from drifting off into oblivion. But in the mean time, the guys in Cleveland are hoping, down the road, that one of these picks might pan out into a star on Melo or STAT's level.

I'll gladly take our situation. I'm excited to see this team after a little tinkering and a full training camp together.

Curious to see what happens with Cleveland's capspace in the future though. Can't imagine any big names hopping on the plane to Ohio.

This. Some people just glaze over the "lottery" part of lottery picks. Tanking seasons or waiting to build through lottery is a loser approach. You take the best players you can get with what assets you have and build according to a plan. Building through the lottery means you have no plan. Failing to plan is the same as planning to fail.

I don't totally disagree with this but I think the approach is either trade young players or trade picks. The Knicks traded a ton of both.

Either or may be the classic or the traditional approach, that doesn't mean anything different is automatically wrong. At least not in my book.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

At least three 2012 FAs are better than Amare and Carmelo. Unless you have a top 10 NBA player (and we don't), you're better off with an ordinary all-star or even borderline all-star on a rookie contract than what we have. We're an average team with below average opportunity for improvement.

Bonn1997 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

At least three 2012 FAs are better than Amare and Carmelo. Unless you have a top 10 NBA player (and we don't), you're better off with an ordinary all-star or even borderline all-star on a rookie contract than what we have. We're an average team with below average opportunity for improvement.

OK so what should we have done? Retained the players we had been right at around .500 with no hope of ever landing anyone in the top 10?

misterearl wrote:"Situation" or "ownership"?

It was Dolan who pressed the panic button.

I miss Ernie Grnfeld

Thats speculation.

anyway...I'll trade proven talent for "potential" any day.