Off Topic · Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date (page 4)

yellowboy90 wrote:

Markji wrote:

jusnice wrote:So much to think about...I am confused and have few answers. The Septa ain't a Septa, not sure who she is. The Blackfish will come back and play a role for sure. He's not dead. I originally thought that Cold Hands was Benjen, but now Mark is making me reconsider this given the age comment. I just don't understand what Cold Hands is and what his purpose is in helping Bran if he isn't Benjen. Why would he have let Samwell escape and why would he have some good in him when other brothers who have been turned do not??? Confused.

I am also very confused by what is happening to Bran. What is this underworld he is in and who is the tree man?

The only thing I firmly believe is that Arya will have a huge role in what comes next. I don't think she becomes an assasin or stays with the Faceless Men. It seems that she is learning something in each of her phases of life and that she will turn into this very well rounded, very dangerous woman. Part of me thinks she teams up with Dany since they seem to have strong moral values and aren't all about power and killing.

The Dany plot line is getting a bit old. Does anyone talk about how she must learn to control these dragons or they really aren't an asset to her at all?

Sorry to confuse you. There is a huge amount going on all at the same time and Geo Martin plays his cards close to his chest.

Coldhands- at first I also thought it was Benjen Stark. Maybe he is? or maybe that would be too obvious? My main thought against him being Benjen is why hasn't Bran recognized him as his uncle. They are traveling together for many, many weeks. Surely Bran should notice??? Coldhands is obviously dead and so must be like the other wights in that respect. But he serves the 3-Eyed Crow who is a great Greenseer who controls many things. i.e. the flock of 1001 crows/ravens, Coldhands, the great Elk, etc.

The 3-Eyed Crow is very ancient man/Greenseer whose body is being kept alive and nourished by somehow melding with the tree. It is very strange and I have not read about this concept before. He is the 3-Eyed Crow in Bran's dreams who keeps telling Bran he can fly by opening up his 3rd eye. He is teaching Bran the ways of a Greenseer and IMO, Bran seems to already have surpassed him. 3-Eyed Crow just watches thru the Weirwoods but can't interfere or make contact. Bran already can do that but in addition he spoke out to Theon in the Godswood in Winterfell and Theon heard Bran. Therefore, made contact and communicated.

I agree with you totally about Arya. I love her and she is one person you don't want to cross. Geo Martin did a great job with her chapters because we are seeing thru the eyes and feeling the emotions of a 9 year old girl going thru all of her many adventures.

And Dany - yeah, that sure seemed very stupid for her to chain up the dragons. I thought that was an incongruous twist to the plot. But now the dragons are lose and they will kick a$$. Qwentyn got toasted. I hope the same happens to the Yunkai.

The 3-Eyed Crow is BloodRaven a Half-Targ and former Hand(I believe) and former Lord Commander at the Wall. Also, I think he can interfere and obviously he can contact people through their dreams, i.e. Bran.

3-Eyed Crow just watches thru the Weirwoods but can't interfere or make contact. Bran already can do that but in addition he spoke out to Theon in the Godswood in Winterfell and Theon heard Bran. Therefore, made contact and communicated.

What I meant was that thru the weirwoods Bloodraven doesn't seem to be able to make contact or interfere. He obviously can interfere thru other means like thru dreams; sending Coldhands or the flock of Ravens, etc. The Weirwoods seem to be like a portal where the Greenseer can see the happenings of the surroundings. I don't recall other instances of communicating thru the Weirwoods, but maybe? When Bran did it, it seemed like a very big deal and advancement in his training. Were there other instances that you recall?

And I agree that the Greenseer/3 eyed crow appears to be Bloodraven who was both Hand of the king and later Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.From info when the Blackfire Rebellion was discussed in the book.

I've finished all 5 books and have read through the thread here. Just some random thoughts.

- Jon Snow's parents are definitely Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark IMO. He has to have some Stark bloodlines. They say he and Arya look alike. They always say Arya looks like Lyanna. So therefore Jon must look like Lyanna. Rhaegar stole away Lyanna, and Lyanna was apparently pregnant when she was dying. In addition, she was being protected by kingsguard, so she must have been pregnant with the heir to the throne. Finally she keeps telling Ned to "promise her" something, and throughout Ned's chapters, he struggles with the weight of some lie he's been leading for 14 years. Jon is 14 at the start of the book.

It is a song of Ice and Fire, and it appears Jon may well be the Ice part, while Dany may be the fire. The dragon supposedly has "3 heads" though- so it remains to be seen what part Aegon/Young Griff plays in this.

- Dany is "Azor Ahai" reborn, and Melisandre keeps interpreting her visions incorrectly. Dany awakes from the salt of her tears and the smoke of her pyre (like Azor Ahai is supposed to) and hatches dragons- and at about this time the red comet appears. The only thing this doesn't explain is that she's not weilding lightbringer, the sword. Still have to figure that part out.

- The 3 eyed crow is definitely Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven, the Targareyan bastard who was a sorcerer that later became one of the Lord Commander's of the nightwatch. I don't know what this means for Bran- but eventually he's obviously going to play some important role due to his greensight.

- I don't really buy the Bran eating Jojen theory. I don't think Jojen is dead yet. Also this is surprisingly and uncharacteristically morbid. Remember GRRM always describes teh weirwoods as bleeding, so this description just fits with the rest.

- I do think Bran speaks to Theon in the weirwood. I thought the most interesting part of Dance with Dragons were the Theon chapters. I do think there is a redemption somewhere ahead. BTW, do we think that Ramsay chopped off Theon's Manhood?

6) What role are the Lannister's playing in this? They are one of the key families in this series, and clearly they are important in some way to the fate of the realm. I never really thought of that Tyrion as a Targaeryan theory till I read this thread, but I suppose it could be true since Aegon apparently was fond of Lady Joanna. If its true, doesn't that make Tyrion the true heir? Is he the third head of the dragon?

7) What is going to come of Brienne, Jamie and Lady Stoneheart? Jamie, IMO, has also developed into one of the most interesting and complex characters. Before its over, it seems he will have some redemption or opportunity to prove his honor.

- It will be interesting to see what Littlefinger accomplishes with Sansa. What is his endgame? Is he just trying to find away to get the throne himself or is he working for some other motives or someone else?

- Varys' ability to change his appearance and time in Braavos suggest he might have been a faceless man. What about the other faceless men like Ja'quen Ha'gar- what is he doing in the Citadel, and what is Sam going to learn down there. And what role is Arya destined for by becoming a Faceless Man herself?

- Davos going to find Rickon on island full of cannibals in Skagos is one of the great cliffhangers as well.

- Victarion and his fleet are clearly Dany's most likely way to find her way back to Westeros (other than flying in on dragons). Ultimately all this focus on Greyjoy must mean something important.

-I don't think Loras Tyrell is dead or dying. I do think there might have been some sort of incestuous relationship between Margaery and Loras - there seems to be some parallel between those two and Jamie and Cersei.

-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

-Septa Lemore as Ashara Dayne is a great theory, which I didn't think of, Kudos to you guys.

Jeez there are a lot of loose ends still!

VDesai wrote:I've finished all 5 books and have read through the thread here. Just some random thoughts.

- Jon Snow's parents are definitely Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark IMO. He has to have some Stark bloodlines. They say he and Arya look alike. They always say Arya looks like Lyanna. So therefore Jon must look like Lyanna. Rhaegar stole away Lyanna, and Lyanna was apparently pregnant when she was dying. In addition, she was being protected by kingsguard, so she must have been pregnant with the heir to the throne. Finally she keeps telling Ned to "promise her" something, and throughout Ned's chapters, he struggles with the weight of some lie he's been leading for 14 years. Jon is 14 at the start of the book.

It is a song of Ice and Fire, and it appears Jon may well be the Ice part, while Dany may be the fire. The dragon supposedly has "3 heads" though- so it remains to be seen what part Aegon/Young Griff plays in this.

- Dany is "Azor Ahai" reborn, and Melisandre keeps interpreting her visions incorrectly. Dany awakes from the salt of her tears and the smoke of her pyre (like Azor Ahai is supposed to) and hatches dragons- and at about this time the red comet appears. The only thing this doesn't explain is that she's not weilding lightbringer, the sword. Still have to figure that part out.

- The 3 eyed crow is definitely Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven, the Targareyan bastard who was a sorcerer that later became one of the Lord Commander's of the nightwatch. I don't know what this means for Bran- but eventually he's obviously going to play some important role due to his greensight.

- I don't really buy the Bran eating Jojen theory. I don't think Jojen is dead yet. Also this is surprisingly and uncharacteristically morbid. Remember GRRM always describes teh weirwoods as bleeding, so this description just fits with the rest.

- I do think Bran speaks to Theon in the weirwood. I thought the most interesting part of Dance with Dragons were the Theon chapters. I do think there is a redemption somewhere ahead. BTW, do we think that Ramsay chopped off Theon's Manhood?

6) What role are the Lannister's playing in this? They are one of the key families in this series, and clearly they are important in some way to the fate of the realm. I never really thought of that Tyrion as a Targaeryan theory till I read this thread, but I suppose it could be true since Aegon apparently was fond of Lady Joanna. If its true, doesn't that make Tyrion the true heir? Is he the third head of the dragon?

7) What is going to come of Brienne, Jamie and Lady Stoneheart? Jamie, IMO, has also developed into one of the most interesting and complex characters. Before its over, it seems he will have some redemption or opportunity to prove his honor.

- It will be interesting to see what Littlefinger accomplishes with Sansa. What is his endgame? Is he just trying to find away to get the throne himself or is he working for some other motives or someone else?

- Varys' ability to change his appearance and time in Braavos suggest he might have been a faceless man. What about the other faceless men like Ja'quen Ha'gar- what is he doing in the Citadel, and what is Sam going to learn down there. And what role is Arya destined for by becoming a Faceless Man herself?

- Davos going to find Rickon on island full of cannibals in Skagos is one of the great cliffhangers as well.

- Victarion and his fleet are clearly Dany's most likely way to find her way back to Westeros (other than flying in on dragons). Ultimately all this focus on Greyjoy must mean something important.

-I don't think Loras Tyrell is dead or dying. I do think there might have been some sort of incestuous relationship between Margaery and Loras - there seems to be some parallel between those two and Jamie and Cersei.

-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

-Septa Lemore as Ashara Dayne is a great theory, which I didn't think of, Kudos to you guys.

Jeez there are a lot of loose ends still!

Great post and summary of so many plotlines/characters/futrue events.

Just a quick reply - I have to get going.

I used to think that Tyrion would be the 3rd head of the Dragon, but now I think Jeremy Lin is the 3rd head. Why not. He's done everything else. Lincredible!

I agree that Theon is interesting and up for redemption. One unanswered question - who was the man that Theon bumped into when he went out for a walk?
And yes - Theon was castrated. Uh-h!

Even if Tyrion is the son of Aerys and Joanna, he would not be the heir to the Targ throne if indeed Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The line goes through the eldest son (Rhaegar) to Jon, Rhaegar's son. That would make Tyrion, Jon's uncle.

Also, while you said Jon would be Ice (a Stark for sure) and Dany would be Fire, a Targ for sure, if Jon is the son of Rhaegar (Targ) and Lyanna (Stark) that makes Jon both Ice and Fire together in one person. "His Song is the Song of Ice and Fire." That's a quote about the baby boy in the scene with Rhaegar when Dany went through the House of the Undying. Lot's of unanswered, interesting questions that will give the next book a great plot twist, IMO.

Yup, and then there's also the distinct possibility that Jon is also dead...but I doubt that fully is the case.
We do know that he is a warg/skinchanger and that was a big theme of A Dance with Dragons (starting with the prologue and Varamyr Sixskins). More than likely he has morphed into Ghost, but its unclear how that will affect the story. I wonder if he will remain a POV character. Jon not being around to protect the Wall will probably force the Kingdoms hand with regard to the Wights/Others and at some point in the near future things will come to a head.

On the subject of skin changers, The Old Bear's raven has some sort of human element to him it seems. Maybe its the 3 eyed crow keeping an eye on the wall?

I thought Tyrion was gonna play a part in teaching Dany about dragons, but now that he's with the sellswords it remains to be seen in which direction he'll be going off into. You are right he would be an uncle not an heir-- unless of course Jon is actually dead and Rhaegar has no living heirs.

VDesai wrote:Yup, and then there's also the distinct possibility that Jon is also dead...but I doubt that fully is the case.
We do know that he is a warg/skinchanger and that was a big theme of A Dance with Dragons (starting with the prologue and Varamyr Sixskins). More than likely he has morphed into Ghost, but its unclear how that will affect the story. I wonder if he will remain a POV character. Jon not being around to protect the Wall will probably force the Kingdoms hand with regard to the Wights/Others and at some point in the near future things will come to a head.

My feeling is that Jon isn't dead as it wasn't written that he was dead. Just that the last knife thrust was the last thing Jon remembered. I think he will be healed, maybe by Mellissandre, and leave/escape from the wall. Probably with Gren and Pyp.

On the subject of skin changers, The Old Bear's raven has some sort of human element to him it seems. Maybe its the 3 eyed crow keeping an eye on the wall?
Yes, agree - probably warged by the 3-eyed crow. That crow is too smart to be just a crow.

I thought Tyrion was gonna play a part in teaching Dany about dragons, but now that he's with the sellswords it remains to be seen in which direction he'll be going off into.
Tyrion still may teach Dany about dragons. That section was left unfinished.

You are right he would be an uncle not an heir-- unless of course Jon is actually dead and Rhaegar has no living heirs.

What do we think is the deal with Aegon/Young Griff? I've read a few theories on the internet where it seems people think he might be a Blackfyre instead of a true Taergaryan and that Varys/Illyrio have been Blackfyre loyalists. Makes some sense to me and would explain the resemblence to the Taergaryans, but how were they totally able to convince Connington of this and how coincidental that he would be the same age as baby Aegon. I don't know if i buy it...

I don't think young Griff is Aegon. Too obvious. Not enough intrigue. He seems to perfect. Young Griff and Connington believe he is Aegon but I think it is a plot conceived by Varys and Illyrio. My first thought is that Young Griff is Illyrio's son by his second wife who was from Lys. The Lysene were descended from ancient Valyria and therefore had the same features as the Targaryens - light silver hair, purple eyes. And Illyrio was a great stud of a soldier when he was young so young Griff could have inherited his soldier qualities from Illyrio.

Baby Aegon was probably snuck out of Kings Landing before it was sacked. All these babies seem to survive and characters aren't who they appear to be. My best and maybe wild guess is that baby Aegon was brought out by the 3 Kings Guard Ned fought at the Tower of Joy. And he grew up to be Darkstar-Ser Gerold Dayne. He's a bit crazy (Targ quality) and he has mostly silver hair (Targ) with a black streak down the middle (possibly from Elia Martell- mother of Aegon). But really not enough info to pin down who Aegon really is. I hope all of this comes out in Book 6 so we can enjoy the final battles in Book 7.

VDesai wrote:
It is a song of Ice and Fire, and it appears Jon may well be the Ice part, while Dany may be the fire. The dragon supposedly has "3 heads" though- so it remains to be seen what part Aegon/Young Griff plays in this.

I thought that too. Then I though the title may have just been a reference to John being a Stark and Targ. Now I'm thinking it might be Bran and Dany. If Bran is as powerful a Warg as we're being led to believe, it's possible he can take over a dragon.

VDesai wrote:- I do think Bran speaks to Theon in the weirwood. I thought the most interesting part of Dance with Dragons were the Theon chapters. I do think there is a redemption somewhere ahead. BTW, do we think that Ramsay chopped off Theon's Manhood?

I hope not. I have more sympathy with Theon after the last book. But if i had to guess, I'd say 'yeah, Theon is half the man he used to be and possible one third the man his sister of Asha is.' Asha has really impressed me of late.

VDesai wrote:- Varys' ability to change his appearance and time in Braavos suggest he might have been a faceless man. What about the other faceless men like Ja'quen Ha'gar- what is he doing in the Citadel, and what is Sam going to learn down there. And what role is Arya destined for by becoming a Faceless Man herself?

I attribute that to Varys being a skilled mummer. The Faceless Men have not shown any political interest in the dealings of Westeros. They simply carry out assassination and get paid. Plus, Varys dislikes magic and I think there have been a few hints dropped that the faceless men rely on magic. I am curious about what the Faceless Men are doing in the Citadel.

VDesai wrote:-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

The samples chapters that have been released for Winds shed more light on the Tyrells and their motivations.

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

The samples chapters that have been released for Winds shed more light on the Tyrells and their motivations.

The only sample chapter that I have seen is the one on Theon. Do you have any links to the other sample chapters?

Markji wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

The samples chapters that have been released for Winds shed more light on the Tyrells and their motivations.

The only sample chapter that I have seen is the one on Theon. Do you have any links to the other sample chapters?

Here's a thread on the Arianne II sample Chapter http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/top...

I thought GRRM read Arianne I, nut I just realized that I was thinking Area Hotah's Chapter in DWD.

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:- I do think Bran speaks to Theon in the weirwood. I thought the most interesting part of Dance with Dragons were the Theon chapters. I do think there is a redemption somewhere ahead. BTW, do we think that Ramsay chopped off Theon's Manhood?

I hope not. I have more sympathy with Theon after the last book. But if i had to guess, I'd say 'yeah, Theon is half the man he used to be and possible one third the man his sister of Asha is.' Asha has really impressed me of late.

Both Theon and Jaime, IMO, are moving towards redemption. It's interesting to watch the changes in their thinking and personalities as the series progresses. GRRM has stated that he doesn't view people as "good" vs "evil", but they are mixtures. He remarks on this again in a recent interview from Canada which I will post on the HBO thread. Very interesting and revealing on what goes thru GRRM's mind.

Yes, agree. Asha is a force to be reckoned with.

VDesai wrote:- Varys' ability to change his appearance and time in Braavos suggest he might have been a faceless man. What about the other faceless men like Ja'quen Ha'gar- what is he doing in the Citadel, and what is Sam going to learn down there. And what role is Arya destined for by becoming a Faceless Man herself?

I attribute that to Varys being a skilled mummer. The Faceless Men have not shown any political interest in the dealings of Westeros. They simply carry out assassination and get paid. Plus, Varys dislikes magic and I think there have been a few hints dropped that the faceless men rely on magic. I am curious about what the Faceless Men are doing in the Citadel.

Agree about Varys being a skilled mummer.
Re: Arya - I just don't think she will become a faceless man. I think she will almost complete the training, but then leave to go to Westeros, perhaps with Dany; or to meet up with Jon (assuming Jon is still alive). Arya is the "She - Wolf" and she can never give that up. Arya gives away all of her possessions but she always keeps needle, her fondest symbol/memory of being a Stark. She can't let that go.

VDesai wrote:-The Quentyn storyline was inexplicable to some degree. Obviously there is more of a role for Dorne to play and I'm guessing they will join up with Connington soon.

Quentyn's death makes Ariane even more important as the future leader of Dorne. And that may be soon as her father's health is very fragile and her uncle, the Red Viper, was killed.

SPOILERS

One theme I see running thru the series is the killing/dying off of the older generation of the leaders of houses and institutions and the rise of the younger generations. It is really their story and their world to change....and create a new world.

Out of the 7 great houses, 5 have lost their #1 person and some have lost #2, #3 etc. GRRM loves killing off main characters. Really makes the stories interesting.

Starks- Ned; Rob; Catelyn;
Baratheons - Robert; Renly;
Lannisters - Joffrey; Tywin; Kevan
The Eire -Jon Arryn; Lysa
Tully's-Hoster Tully;
Martells - Oberyn; Quentyn; Doran - maybe soon
Iron Men - Balon Greyjoy
The Wall - The Old Bear; Maester Aemon
Targaryens - Vicerys; (before the story - Rhaegar, Elia and their children, and the mad king Aerys and his wife).
Khalesaar - Khal Drogo;

The Religion of the 7 - Grand Septan;
Maesters - Maester Aemon; Maester Pycelle, and also the old head Maesters at a few other houses - Maester Luwin (Stark); Maester Cressen - Stannis's;
the Wildlings- perhaps Mance?; Rattleshirt
Craster

Markji wrote:SPOILERS

One theme I see running thru the series is the killing/dying off of the older generation of the leaders of houses and institutions and the rise of the younger generations. It is really their story and their world to change....and create a new world.

Out of the 7 great houses, 5 have lost their #1 person and some have lost #2, #3 etc. GRRM loves killing off main characters. Really makes the stories interesting.

Starks- Ned; Rob; Catelyn;
Baratheons - Robert; Renly;
Lannisters - Joffrey; Tywin; Kevan
The Eire -Jon Arryn; Lysa
Tully's-Hoster Tully;
Martells - Oberyn; Quentyn; Doran - maybe soon
Iron Men - Balon Greyjoy
The Wall - The Old Bear; Maester Aemon
Targaryens - Vicerys; (before the story - Rhaegar, Elia and their children, and the mad king Aerys and his wife).
Khalesaar - Khal Drogo;

The Religion of the 7 - Grand Septan;
Maesters - Maester Aemon; Maester Pycelle, and also the old head Maesters at a few other houses - Maester Luwin (Stark); Maester Cressen - Stannis's;
the Wildlings- perhaps Mance?; Rattleshirt
Craster

WHy no Jon included with the wall?

yellowboy90 wrote:

Markji wrote:SPOILERS

One theme I see running thru the series is the killing/dying off of the older generation of the leaders of houses and institutions and the rise of the younger generations. It is really their story and their world to change....and create a new world.

Out of the 7 great houses, 5 have lost their #1 person and some have lost #2, #3 etc. GRRM loves killing off main characters. Really makes the stories interesting.

Starks- Ned; Rob; Catelyn;
Baratheons - Robert; Renly;
Lannisters - Joffrey; Tywin; Kevan
The Eire -Jon Arryn; Lysa
Tully's-Hoster Tully;
Martells - Oberyn; Quentyn; Doran - maybe soon
Iron Men - Balon Greyjoy
The Wall - The Old Bear; Maester Aemon
Targaryens - Vicerys; (before the story - Rhaegar, Elia and their children, and the mad king Aerys and his wife).
Khalesaar - Khal Drogo;

The Religion of the 7 - Grand Septan;
Maesters - Maester Aemon; Maester Pycelle, and also the old head Maesters at a few other houses - Maester Luwin (Stark); Maester Cressen - Stannis's;
the Wildlings- perhaps Mance?; Rattleshirt
Craster

WHy no Jon included with the wall?

Because I don't think Jon is dead.
But you could be right in that I do think that Jon will leave the wall. So that is another change in leadership.

This Sunday starts Season 2 of the HBO series - Game of Thrones. Should be fun. Lot's of interesting stuff and good action.

I can't wait for season 2.

BTW, has anyone here read the "Dunk and Egg" books?

VDesai wrote:I can't wait for season 2.

BTW, has anyone here read the "Dunk and Egg" books?

I read the first 2 about 6 years ago. They were good short stories. They also give you greater perspective of the Targaryen line of Kings. The stories take place about 90 years before the time of A Game of Thrones. Since you've read all of the books, then these are worthwhile.

Markji wrote:SPOILERS

One theme I see running thru the series is the killing/dying off of the older generation of the leaders of houses and institutions and the rise of the younger generations. It is really their story and their world to change....and create a new world.

Out of the 7 great houses, 5 have lost their #1 person and some have lost #2, #3 etc. GRRM loves killing off main characters. Really makes the stories interesting.

Starks- Ned; Rob; Catelyn;
Baratheons - Robert; Renly;
Lannisters - Joffrey; Tywin; Kevan
The Eire -Jon Arryn; Lysa
Tully's-Hoster Tully;
Martells - Oberyn; Quentyn; Doran - maybe soon
Iron Men - Balon Greyjoy
The Wall - The Old Bear; Maester Aemon
Targaryens - Vicerys; (before the story - Rhaegar, Elia and their children, and the mad king Aerys and his wife).
Khalesaar - Khal Drogo;

The Religion of the 7 - Grand Septan;
Maesters - Maester Aemon; Maester Pycelle, and also the old head Maesters at a few other houses - Maester Luwin (Stark); Maester Cressen - Stannis's;
the Wildlings- perhaps Mance?; Rattleshirt
Craster

Yeah, but I don't think it's a matter of just individuals getting killed off. Entires Institutions are getting torched. When was the last time a Stark was leading the north. It looks the Lannisters and Tullys will be wiped out as well. Things aren't looking too good for the Baratheons either. Unfortunately, the Freys will always survive in one form or another because there are just so many of them, but the political landscape is becoming more chaotic.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Markji wrote:SPOILERS

One theme I see running thru the series is the killing/dying off of the older generation of the leaders of houses and institutions and the rise of the younger generations. It is really their story and their world to change....and create a new world.

Out of the 7 great houses, 5 have lost their #1 person and some have lost #2, #3 etc. GRRM loves killing off main characters. Really makes the stories interesting.

Starks- Ned; Rob; Catelyn;
Baratheons - Robert; Renly;
Lannisters - Joffrey; Tywin; Kevan
The Eire -Jon Arryn; Lysa
Tully's-Hoster Tully;
Martells - Oberyn; Quentyn; Doran - maybe soon
Iron Men - Balon Greyjoy
The Wall - The Old Bear; Maester Aemon
Targaryens - Vicerys; (before the story - Rhaegar, Elia and their children, and the mad king Aerys and his wife).
Khalesaar - Khal Drogo;

The Religion of the 7 - Grand Septan;
Maesters - Maester Aemon; Maester Pycelle, and also the old head Maesters at a few other houses - Maester Luwin (Stark); Maester Cressen - Stannis's;
the Wildlings- perhaps Mance?; Rattleshirt
Craster

Yeah, but I don't think it's a matter of just individuals getting killed off. Entires Institutions are getting torched. When was the last time a Stark was leading the north. It looks the Lannisters and Tullys will be wiped out as well. Things aren't looking too good for the Baratheons either. Unfortunately, the Freys will always survive in one form or another because there are just so many of them, but the political landscape is becoming more chaotic.

That is the direction it all is heading. Chaos in the 7 Kingdoms while the evil forces beyond the wall are rising up and none of the Kings are giving it any attention except Stannis a little bit. When Robb was bringing his army south, Osha (wildling woman) said "They are going the wrong way".

It appears that Dany will come with her dragons and be the savior of the 7 Kingdoms, but that is too clear-cut and clean. Too obvious. GRRM will probably throw in a bunch a major wrinkles to that storyline.

from HBO series thread

VDesai wrote:Really interesting episode tonight.

Several divergences between the book and the show on this episode- perhaps we should discuss on the other thread to avoid spoilers?

Interesting how they killed off Rakarro in the HBO series which wasn't in the book. Rakarro was the bloodrider of Danny's who wielded the arakh. I think the scene of the returning empty horse with carrying Rakarro's head does make it more dramatic and adds to the HBO series, so I am OK with it.

And for the producers of the show, that is one less salary to continue to pay.

I wonder how GRRM feels with this? He's probably thinking, why didn't I think of this when writing the book. That would have been another character that I could have killed off. Ha!

Markji wrote:from HBO series thread

VDesai wrote:Really interesting episode tonight.

Several divergences between the book and the show on this episode- perhaps we should discuss on the other thread to avoid spoilers?

Interesting how they killed off Rakarro in the HBO series which wasn't in the book. Rakarro was the bloodrider of Danny's who wielded the arakh. I think the scene of the returning empty horse with carrying Rakarro's head does make it more dramatic and adds to the HBO series, so I am OK with it.

And for the producers of the show, that is one less salary to continue to pay.

I wonder how GRRM feels with this? He's probably thinking, why didn't I think of this when writing the book. That would have been another character that I could have killed off. Ha!

There were 3-4 things I noticed which diverged.

1) Rakharo- I agree with you on this- more dramatic on TV, and while Rakharo does several things to move the plot forward in the book in the grand scheme his character doesn't change the course of the novel in any way thus far (any more so than the other 2 blood riders). They had to kill him off because he was the only blood rider who's face/appearance appeared a lot in season 1, so that's the only way you'd get any affect.

2) Bronn is the new head of the city watch. Instead of having 2-3 characters it was probably easier to conflate Bronn's character with Sir Jacelyn Bywater. Less confusing for the audience, and gives the actor who plays Bronn more to do (which is good because the guy who plays Bronn does a good job). Besides, Jacelyn Bywater dies anyway, and his replacement, Ser Addam Marbrand, gets replaced by one of the Kettleblacks later as well.

3) Devan Seaworth, Davos' sun, plays a much more prominent and different role. He's following Davos around a lot (he's actually Stannis' squire, so that's weird) and he's more obnoxiously into the Lord of the Light than it was is implied by the novel. That makes sense, because one of the big things is how Davos stays independent from that influence.

4) Melisandre and Stannis get it on! And Melisandre promises Stannis a son! This was a huge change. While its subtly implied later that those two are closer than Stannis and his wife, this kind of outward situation is very different from the book. And the fact that it happened so early on also I think kind of changes the perception of Stannis' character for the TV audience vs. the way he is depcited for readers. In the book- Stannis is a very hard, difficult to change dude. Here Stannis is easily seduced. Note sure I like the precedent this sets.

However, I'll give Markji some credit - this Melisandre is hot after all! That was a wild scene and an interesting twist for the show.

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:from HBO series thread

VDesai wrote:Really interesting episode tonight.

Several divergences between the book and the show on this episode- perhaps we should discuss on the other thread to avoid spoilers?

Interesting how they killed off Rakarro in the HBO series which wasn't in the book. Rakarro was the bloodrider of Danny's who wielded the arakh. I think the scene of the returning empty horse with carrying Rakarro's head does make it more dramatic and adds to the HBO series, so I am OK with it.

And for the producers of the show, that is one less salary to continue to pay.

I wonder how GRRM feels with this? He's probably thinking, why didn't I think of this when writing the book. That would have been another character that I could have killed off. Ha!

There were 3-4 things I noticed which diverged.

1) Rakharo- I agree with you on this- more dramatic on TV, and while Rakharo does several things to move the plot forward in the book in the grand scheme his character doesn't change the course of the novel in any way thus far (any more so than the other 2 blood riders). They had to kill him off because he was the only blood rider who's face/appearance appeared a lot in season 1, so that's the only way you'd get any affect.

2) Bronn is the new head of the city watch. Instead of having 2-3 characters it was probably easier to conflate Bronn's character with Sir Jacelyn Bywater. Less confusing for the audience, and gives the actor who plays Bronn more to do (which is good because the guy who plays Bronn does a good job). Besides, Jacelyn Bywater dies anyway, and his replacement, Ser Addam Marbrand, gets replaced by one of the Kettleblacks later as well.

3) Devan Seaworth, Davos' sun, plays a much more prominent and different role. He's following Davos around a lot (he's actually Stannis' squire, so that's weird) and he's more obnoxiously into the Lord of the Light than it was is implied by the novel. That makes sense, because one of the big things is how Davos stays independent from that influence.

4) Melisandre and Stannis get it on! And Melisandre promises Stannis a son! This was a huge change. While its subtly implied later that those two are closer than Stannis and his wife, this kind of outward situation is very different from the book. And the fact that it happened so early on also I think kind of changes the perception of Stannis' character for the TV audience vs. the way he is depcited for readers. In the book- Stannis is a very hard, difficult to change dude. Here Stannis is easily seduced. Note sure I like the precedent this sets.

However, I'll give Markji some credit - this Melisandre is hot after all! That was a wild scene and an interesting twist for the show.

I agree with you about Bronn. The actor is doing a great job - he's perfect for the role. Giving him a little extra scene is fine.
Thanks for the compliment on Melisandre. I think the shadow "son" will be born from this relationship with Stannis, and "he" will take out Renley. They are moving the events along more quickly than the book.

One other change - "Asha" Greyjoy's name was changed to Yara. Not a big deal.