Off Topic · Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date (page 5)

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:from HBO series thread

VDesai wrote:Really interesting episode tonight.

Several divergences between the book and the show on this episode- perhaps we should discuss on the other thread to avoid spoilers?

Interesting how they killed off Rakarro in the HBO series which wasn't in the book. Rakarro was the bloodrider of Danny's who wielded the arakh. I think the scene of the returning empty horse with carrying Rakarro's head does make it more dramatic and adds to the HBO series, so I am OK with it.

And for the producers of the show, that is one less salary to continue to pay.

I wonder how GRRM feels with this? He's probably thinking, why didn't I think of this when writing the book. That would have been another character that I could have killed off. Ha!

There were 3-4 things I noticed which diverged.

1) Rakharo- I agree with you on this- more dramatic on TV, and while Rakharo does several things to move the plot forward in the book in the grand scheme his character doesn't change the course of the novel in any way thus far (any more so than the other 2 blood riders). They had to kill him off because he was the only blood rider who's face/appearance appeared a lot in season 1, so that's the only way you'd get any affect.

2) Bronn is the new head of the city watch. Instead of having 2-3 characters it was probably easier to conflate Bronn's character with Sir Jacelyn Bywater. Less confusing for the audience, and gives the actor who plays Bronn more to do (which is good because the guy who plays Bronn does a good job). Besides, Jacelyn Bywater dies anyway, and his replacement, Ser Addam Marbrand, gets replaced by one of the Kettleblacks later as well.

3) Devan Seaworth, Davos' sun, plays a much more prominent and different role. He's following Davos around a lot (he's actually Stannis' squire, so that's weird) and he's more obnoxiously into the Lord of the Light than it was is implied by the novel. That makes sense, because one of the big things is how Davos stays independent from that influence.

4) Melisandre and Stannis get it on! And Melisandre promises Stannis a son! This was a huge change. While its subtly implied later that those two are closer than Stannis and his wife, this kind of outward situation is very different from the book. And the fact that it happened so early on also I think kind of changes the perception of Stannis' character for the TV audience vs. the way he is depcited for readers. In the book- Stannis is a very hard, difficult to change dude. Here Stannis is easily seduced. Note sure I like the precedent this sets.

However, I'll give Markji some credit - this Melisandre is hot after all! That was a wild scene and an interesting twist for the show.

I agree with you about Bronn. The actor is doing a great job - he's perfect for the role. Giving him a little extra scene is fine.
Thanks for the compliment on Melisandre. I think the shadow "son" will be born from this relationship with Stannis, and "he" will take out Renley. They are moving the events along more quickly than the book.

One other change - "Asha" Greyjoy's name was changed to Yara. Not a big deal.

What do you think about the characterization of Stannis? I get a much different impression of him from the show than I do from the book.

VDesai wrote:What do you think about the characterization of Stannis? I get a much different impression of him from the show than I do from the book.

Yes, he is weaker in the HBO series where he seems to let fate overtake him. In the books he was hard and challenged everything and everyone.

What's up fellas. I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed in the series so far this year. I understand that they have to introduce a whole new slew of characters and plot lines, but it has been slow and lacking the action that we'd grown accustomed to. I think someone said that they are splitting season two into 2 different parts, which would explain the slow, plodding pace. I just hope that it picks up soon.

I think Melisandre is cast pretty well...I thoroughly enjoyed seeing her without her robe on!!! Curious to know if/when they introduce the Reeds...

Any update on the release of book 6?

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Markji wrote:from HBO series thread

VDesai wrote:Really interesting episode tonight.

Several divergences between the book and the show on this episode- perhaps we should discuss on the other thread to avoid spoilers?

Interesting how they killed off Rakarro in the HBO series which wasn't in the book. Rakarro was the bloodrider of Danny's who wielded the arakh. I think the scene of the returning empty horse with carrying Rakarro's head does make it more dramatic and adds to the HBO series, so I am OK with it.

And for the producers of the show, that is one less salary to continue to pay.

I wonder how GRRM feels with this? He's probably thinking, why didn't I think of this when writing the book. That would have been another character that I could have killed off. Ha!

There were 3-4 things I noticed which diverged.

1) Rakharo- I agree with you on this- more dramatic on TV, and while Rakharo does several things to move the plot forward in the book in the grand scheme his character doesn't change the course of the novel in any way thus far (any more so than the other 2 blood riders). They had to kill him off because he was the only blood rider who's face/appearance appeared a lot in season 1, so that's the only way you'd get any affect.

2) Bronn is the new head of the city watch. Instead of having 2-3 characters it was probably easier to conflate Bronn's character with Sir Jacelyn Bywater. Less confusing for the audience, and gives the actor who plays Bronn more to do (which is good because the guy who plays Bronn does a good job). Besides, Jacelyn Bywater dies anyway, and his replacement, Ser Addam Marbrand, gets replaced by one of the Kettleblacks later as well.

3) Devan Seaworth, Davos' sun, plays a much more prominent and different role. He's following Davos around a lot (he's actually Stannis' squire, so that's weird) and he's more obnoxiously into the Lord of the Light than it was is implied by the novel. That makes sense, because one of the big things is how Davos stays independent from that influence.

4) Melisandre and Stannis get it on! And Melisandre promises Stannis a son! This was a huge change. While its subtly implied later that those two are closer than Stannis and his wife, this kind of outward situation is very different from the book. And the fact that it happened so early on also I think kind of changes the perception of Stannis' character for the TV audience vs. the way he is depcited for readers. In the book- Stannis is a very hard, difficult to change dude. Here Stannis is easily seduced. Note sure I like the precedent this sets.

However, I'll give Markji some credit - this Melisandre is hot after all! That was a wild scene and an interesting twist for the show.

I agree with you about Bronn. The actor is doing a great job - he's perfect for the role. Giving him a little extra scene is fine.
Thanks for the compliment on Melisandre. I think the shadow "son" will be born from this relationship with Stannis, and "he" will take out Renley. They are moving the events along more quickly than the book.

One other change - "Asha" Greyjoy's name was changed to Yara. Not a big deal.

I though it was known to the readers that Mel and Stannis were getting it on and Stannis expresses his reluctance at having to do it. That's how those shadow monsters were made. The line about the son was interesting. By son, did she mean shadow monster?

NOTE: I just saw your post on the shadow monster. Yeah, I was thinking along those same lines.

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:What do you think about the characterization of Stannis? I get a much different impression of him from the show than I do from the book.

Yes, he is weaker in the HBO series where he seems to let fate overtake him. In the books he was hard and challenged everything and everyone.

Yeah, Stannis doesn't seem like the "iron" forged character that Donal Noye depicts him as being. Then again, Renly doesn't come across as being nearly as charismatic as the books depict him as being.

Tommy Carceti is doing an excellent job as Littlefinger though. I loved the scene with Roz where he had to lay down the pimp hand.

I always thought that other people implied or made rumor of Stannis/Melisandre getting it on in the book, but there was never any direct reference or implication to it. And Stannis' characterization makes it seem like sex is beneath him, or not something he has any interest in. Maybe I read it wrong- but I found the interpretation of the show to be a lot different than what I thought in my head.

With this in mind, has Melisandre been trying to seduce Jon Snow? Has she turned her attention away from Stannis?

Also, I think GRRM consults on the show- so I guess the implication is correct (as was the case with the Loras/Renly relationship)

VDesai wrote:I always thought that other people implied or made rumor of Stannis/Melisandre getting it on in the book, but there was never any direct reference or implication to it. And Stannis' characterization makes it seem like sex is beneath him, or not something he has any interest in. Maybe I read it wrong- but I found the interpretation of the show to be a lot different than what I thought in my head.

With this in mind, has Melisandre been trying to seduce Jon Snow? Has she turned her attention away from Stannis?

Mel has definitely been chatty around Jon. What is Jon now, 17-18. She might intimidate him. She would intimidate the hell out of me. As for Stannis, GRRM does imply that he views sex as more of a chore. That could be because his wife isn't that attractive.

BigDaddyG wrote:

VDesai wrote:I always thought that other people implied or made rumor of Stannis/Melisandre getting it on in the book, but there was never any direct reference or implication to it. And Stannis' characterization makes it seem like sex is beneath him, or not something he has any interest in. Maybe I read it wrong- but I found the interpretation of the show to be a lot different than what I thought in my head.

With this in mind, has Melisandre been trying to seduce Jon Snow? Has she turned her attention away from Stannis?

Mel has definitely been chatty around Jon. What is Jon now, 17-18. She might intimidate him. She would intimidate the hell out of me. As for Stannis, GRRM does imply that he views sex as more of a chore. That could be because his wife isn't that attractive.

I think Mel is playing up to Jon because she is realizing that Stannis might not be Azor Ahai and that Jon may indeed be the one.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Markji wrote:They also changed and cut the House of the Undying intricacies. The visions and prophesies from the book weren't there. Instead, we see Dany first in the Iron Throne hall in King's Landing with snow falling everywhere. Looks like Winter has come. Next she is at the Wall and passing thru the gate. Lastly she is with Kal Drogo and her son. I am guessing that these are the prophesies Dany will encounter later in the series. Do you think people picked up on this? or maybe I'm wrong?

Isn't there a Ice Dragon Prophecy or something like that in the books?

Yes. Good thought Yellowboy90. I did a search and found 3 references of Ice Dragons in A Dance with Dragons:

1. "They rode the winch lift back to the ground. The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy."

2. "The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent." (When Jon Snow was leading Val thru the wall to have her find Tormund.

3. "The snowfall was light today, a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air, but the wind was blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to tell. Even Melisandre’s fire was shivering; the flames huddled down in the ditch, crackling softly as the red priestess sang. Only Ghost seemed not to feel the chill."
(This quote is the same as quote #1 above. GRRM has plagiarized himself.

4th reference - George RR Martin wrote a children's book entitled "The Ice Dragon", published in 2007.
Quote from "The Ice Dragon";
"The ice dragon was a creature of legend and fear, for no man had ever tamed one. When it flew overhead, it left in its wake desolate cold and frozen land. But Adara was not afraid. For Adara was a winter child, born during the worst freeze that anyone, even the Old Ones, could remember.

Since GRRM mentions Ice Dragon at least 3 times in ADWD, and he loves to foreshadow events, perhaps there will emerge a real "Ice Dragon" to battle Dany's dragons. Pure speculation but it would be very interesting.

Oh crap that's an awesome find guys...the Ice Dragons are probably what's lying deep behind the wall. I can definitely see a clash of the dragons as the climax of the series.

God, I'm jonesing for the next book. Can't find anything to read right now that even keeps my interest. This is a very interesting perspective. Martin hasn't really evovlved the dragons as characthers or protagonists and I wonder if he will further develop them or keep them somewhat high level...

I doubt we get the next book for another 2-3 years at least. I think I am going to start reading the Dunk and Egg books.

Another point from Markji:

Episode 10 - One thing possibly cleared up from discussions on the books. Many people feel that Syrio could have actually been a faceless man and he became Jaquen Hagar. In episode 10 when Arya tells Jacquen that her dancing master was also from Bravos, Jacquen replies that "to be a dancing master is a special thing. But to be a faceless man is something else entirely." So this seems to indicate that they are 2 different people. But maybe Jaquen is purposely misleading her??

The one thing about GRRM is if you don't read a scene where someone gets killed, you can be pretty sure he's not dead. So I don't think Syrio is dead. He might well have escaped, hid in the cells and changed his identity to Ja'quen- that certainly seems possible. However, we later meet "The Alchemist" who is described as having the same features that Ja'quen changed to before he left Arya. "The Alchemist" then changes into Pate, an apprentice at the citadel. So there is precedent for Ja'qen to be assuming other people's identities.

What's interesting is why the faceless men have an extreme interest in Arya, and what are the faceless men doing at the citadel.

VDesai wrote:Oh crap that's an awesome find guys...the Ice Dragons are probably what's lying deep behind the wall. I can definitely see a clash of the dragons as the climax of the series.

I never gave "ice dragons" any thought before YellowBoy brought it up. Previously, it seemed so simple - once Dany's dragons were big enough and tamed, the 3 heads/riders of the dragon would fly in and torch the Others; end winter; and take the throne. The Ice Dragons make it very interesting if they indeed exist.

And Melisandre, as the priestess of fire, may have a bigger role to play to combat all of the forces of winter??

VDesai wrote:Another point from Markji:

Episode 10 - One thing possibly cleared up from discussions on the books. Many people feel that Syrio could have actually been a faceless man and he became Jaquen Hagar. In episode 10 when Arya tells Jacquen that her dancing master was also from Bravos, Jacquen replies that "to be a dancing master is a special thing. But to be a faceless man is something else entirely." So this seems to indicate that they are 2 different people. But maybe Jaquen is purposely misleading her??

The one thing about GRRM is if you don't read a scene where someone gets killed, you can be pretty sure he's not dead. So I don't think Syrio is dead. He might well have escaped, hid in the cells and changed his identity to Ja'quen- that certainly seems possible. However, we later meet "The Alchemist" who is described as having the same features that Ja'quen changed to before he left Arya. "The Alchemist" then changes into Pate, an apprentice at the citadel. So there is precedent for Ja'qen to be assuming other people's identities.

What's interesting is why the faceless men have an extreme interest in Arya, and what are the faceless men doing at the citadel.

I agree with your statement on people being dead or not. Even when they seem to be killed, they really aren't (Catelyn becomes Lady Stoneheart; Ser Beric Dondarrion; The Mountain becomes Ser Robert; the Hound; and I'll add Ashara Dayne, and Ser Loras are still alive, IMO.

Re: Arya
Braavos seems to have an interest in the Starks. First Syrio comes to teach Arya swords and he was the first sword of Braavos - that's a high position to then go to a less civilized land to teach a 10 yr old girl how to use a sword. Then Ja'quen (who may be Syrio- I think so); and then the Braavosi Banker Tycho - who travels to the wall and makes a pact/loan with Jon Snow. My guess is that they see the dangers in Winter arising and are helping Westeros to overcome it. If Westeros falls, then probably they are next.

The Starks are the descendents of the First Men, and wardens/Kings of the North for thousands of years. I think it was the Starks who defeated the atrocities of winter the last time. The name of their castle is "Winterfell"; i.e.; that is where Winter fell/was defeated the last time. Just conjecture but it may be true. No hints yet in the books.

GRRM drops some gems at Q&A in Spain: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entr...

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:Oh crap that's an awesome find guys...the Ice Dragons are probably what's lying deep behind the wall. I can definitely see a clash of the dragons as the climax of the series.

I never gave "ice dragons" any thought before YellowBoy brought it up. Previously, it seemed so simple - once Dany's dragons were big enough and tamed, the 3 heads/riders of the dragon would fly in and torch the Others; end winter; and take the throne. The Ice Dragons make it very interesting if they indeed exist.

And Melisandre, as the priestess of fire, may have a bigger role to play to combat all of the forces of winter??

Maybe the horn, can't remember the name, that is supposed to bring down the wall, actually wakes the dragon??

jusnice wrote:

Markji wrote:

VDesai wrote:Oh crap that's an awesome find guys...the Ice Dragons are probably what's lying deep behind the wall. I can definitely see a clash of the dragons as the climax of the series.

I never gave "ice dragons" any thought before YellowBoy brought it up. Previously, it seemed so simple - once Dany's dragons were big enough and tamed, the 3 heads/riders of the dragon would fly in and torch the Others; end winter; and take the throne. The Ice Dragons make it very interesting if they indeed exist.

And Melisandre, as the priestess of fire, may have a bigger role to play to combat all of the forces of winter??

Maybe the horn, can't remember the name, that is supposed to bring down the wall, actually wakes the dragon??

Brilliant! As Viserys kept using that term "wake the dragon" when talking to Daenerys.
I think the horn could do both - bring down the wall and awaken the ice dragon.
Book 6 - "Can't wait".

I always assumed that ice dragon referred to Jon Stark, who is possibly half Stark and half Targ. His awakening may come after the events in Dance.