Knicks · We don't need CP3, we need Iman (page 1)
We need permiter defense & rebounding.
Who else will we have or hope to have that has the physical tools to guard D. Wade and Derrick Rose or any of the other quick guards who've lit us up (Brandon Jennings, anyone)?
No one. Not Chris Paul, Not Deron Williams, Not anybody on our radar. No one.
We need to develop Iman because he can have a serious impact on the defensive end. I don't expect him to lock those guys up, just to give them a hard time, make them earn their points, force some tough shots, make them work, frustrate them from time to time.
We need to cherish what we have and develop it. We have a really good core, we have scorers, and with Iman we have some perimeter defense and we'll see what he can do on the offensive side.
What we don't have is a real big that rebounds. We'll have to see what Jerome Jordan looks like. We'll have to see what Jorts can contribute. But as this roster is presently contructed, CP3 is not our greatest need. Regardless of how Iman plays out, we know he has the physical tools to defend and that he likes to defend and did it at high level in college.
That alone means CP3 is not our priority. He is a luxury and his knees are a gamble.
Moonangie wrote:While I agree with your point on principle, I don't think it counts how our team is currently constructed. MDA's system is based on scoring and depends heavily on a playmaking PG (e.g., Nash) who can also score. Iman is unproven as PG.
You are assuming MDA will be here. Build a team for Championship not the current coach. Phil Jackson is looming.
I am inclined to agree with Killa. I would rather keep Fields, TD, Iman - especially with the assumption that those guys are cheap, young and can play defense. After that go to market with $10-13M of cap space and fill it with big men who can guard the rim and a player off the bench who is lockdown like Tayshaun.
I think the Knicks brass realizes that they can't strip the team so drastically and then completely restock the roster enough to contend. They have to keep Iman at the very least. I did a trade on tradechecker and this is what worked. CP3 for CB, TD, Fields, Jordan, 2017 pick and $3 mil cash. It's certainly not a great package from the Hornets point of view, but its better than nothing. Perhaps the Knicks could throw in a 2nd rd pick in addition. Thing is the Knicks don't have to give them everything they want. The Hornets aren't in a position of strength. The Knicks can say forget it and still have a winning team.
DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me Paul
It doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-chris-p...
(watch the furious work out Glen Davis is having in the background for the duration of the interview). I really like his attitude and his work ethic, I hope he has a great first season.
nixluva wrote:DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me PaulIt doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
None of whom were point guards, arguable the most important position in the game. You don't give the reigns to a rook unless he's top flight which, we don't know. The guy has looked good in the vid's I've seen but, those weren't nba quality games either.
If I'm the coach I don't even consider it at this point. Let Imam grow into what he can be without putting undue pressure on the kid.
nixluva wrote:DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me PaulIt doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
Through six years, you have a player who's tracking comparable or better to the names on the list below. I absolutely love Shump, (and I loved Moz, too) but please...potential versus this?
Thru 6 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6
Chris Paul 18.3 17.8 13.9 10.4 8.8 7.3
Jerry West 91.9 17.1 16.7 14.0 12.9 8.1 6.6
Walt Frazier 79.2 15.6 15.0 14.5 13.0 12.7 3.5
Magic Johnson 79.0 12.9 12.7 12.5 10.5 10.2 6.4
Sidney Moncrief 78.4 13.4 13.2 12.7 11.2 9.9 4.9
Jimmy Jones 76.9 16.1 10.5 10.3 9.3 9.3 8.3
John Stockton 76.5 15.6 14.4 14.1 6.7 5.9 3.1
Oscar Robertson 73.1 20.6 17.0 16.9 16.8 15.6 13.2
Dwyane Wade 71.6 14.7 14.4 11.0 8.8 4.6 3.3
Reggie Miller 69.9 12.5 12.1 11.3 11.0 6.5 4.2
Michael Jordan 69.4 21.2 19.8 19.0 16.9 14.0 1.5
jrodmc wrote:nixluva wrote:DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me PaulIt doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
Through six years, you have a player who's tracking comparable or better to the names on the list below. I absolutely love Shump, (and I loved Moz, too) but please...potential versus this?
Thru 6 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6
Chris Paul 18.3 17.8 13.9 10.4 8.8 7.3
Jerry West 91.9 17.1 16.7 14.0 12.9 8.1 6.6
Walt Frazier 79.2 15.6 15.0 14.5 13.0 12.7 3.5
Magic Johnson 79.0 12.9 12.7 12.5 10.5 10.2 6.4
Sidney Moncrief 78.4 13.4 13.2 12.7 11.2 9.9 4.9
Jimmy Jones 76.9 16.1 10.5 10.3 9.3 9.3 8.3
John Stockton 76.5 15.6 14.4 14.1 6.7 5.9 3.1
Oscar Robertson 73.1 20.6 17.0 16.9 16.8 15.6 13.2
Dwyane Wade 71.6 14.7 14.4 11.0 8.8 4.6 3.3
Reggie Miller 69.9 12.5 12.1 11.3 11.0 6.5 4.2
Michael Jordan 69.4 21.2 19.8 19.0 16.9 14.0 1.5
I think everyone realizes just how great CP3 is and no one is even thinking that Iman is that kind of player. I think that it's still too early to write him off as some have done. Iman has considerable talent and it's yet to be seen just what he can do on this level. I don't believe that anything will happen with Cp3 before the season, so we'll get to see what Iman can do. IMO we don't have to send away Iman in order to do a deal with NO. We can simply wait and take our chances with signing CP3 as a FA. Once the season gets underway that will be the only real option left.
Chances are this team will be winning games and not in a desperate situation. If it's my team I want to retain as much talent as I can, since there won't be any cap space to add talent after a trade for CP3. It's suicide to send every last bit of talent you have with no way to restock the team after the deal. You have to at least keep one of your prospects. If not then I don't do the deal. NO can take it or leave it. Knicks are in a position to play hardball.
jrodmc wrote:nixluva wrote:DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me PaulIt doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
Through six years, you have a player who's tracking comparable or better to the names on the list below. I absolutely love Shump, (and I loved Moz, too) but please...potential versus this?
Thru 6 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6
Chris Paul 18.3 17.8 13.9 10.4 8.8 7.3
Jerry West 91.9 17.1 16.7 14.0 12.9 8.1 6.6
Walt Frazier 79.2 15.6 15.0 14.5 13.0 12.7 3.5
Magic Johnson 79.0 12.9 12.7 12.5 10.5 10.2 6.4
Sidney Moncrief 78.4 13.4 13.2 12.7 11.2 9.9 4.9
Jimmy Jones 76.9 16.1 10.5 10.3 9.3 9.3 8.3
John Stockton 76.5 15.6 14.4 14.1 6.7 5.9 3.1
Oscar Robertson 73.1 20.6 17.0 16.9 16.8 15.6 13.2
Dwyane Wade 71.6 14.7 14.4 11.0 8.8 4.6 3.3
Reggie Miller 69.9 12.5 12.1 11.3 11.0 6.5 4.2
Michael Jordan 69.4 21.2 19.8 19.0 16.9 14.0 1.5
Can you explain what all those numbers mean? CP3 looks much lower than the others, but what do the numbers represent?
many writers didn't think we had enough assets to get Melo either!
They were wrong!
Why?
Knicks did the unthinkable. Most think the team cares about winning. Knicks just care about the gate.
Melo gets you the gate.
CP3 would be a nice piece for the show.
"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends..............."
Nalod wrote:I don't know how you get a trade thru.many writers didn't think we had enough assets to get Melo either!
They were wrong!
Why?
Knicks did the unthinkable. Most think the team cares about winning. Knicks just care about the gate.
Melo gets you the gate.
CP3 would be a nice piece for the show.
"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends..............."
I was going to make the same point. Denver and the media kept saying we had no assets to get Melo then wamm, all of a sudden they have interest in our guys. It's all crap and spin to sell papers. I'm not even sure I believe the report of him or his agent asking out. Not like we haven't read out right lies before.
Moonangie wrote:jrodmc wrote:nixluva wrote:DurzoBlint wrote:a rook that wasn't even projected as a first round pick! Sorry but, give me PaulIt doesn't matter if he was projected as a 1st rd pick or not. Fields and Lee were thought of very highely and neither was Chandler. It's clear now that analysts were wrong about those guys and it's looking like the same is true of Iman. How many real 2 way 6-5 PG/SG's come out every year? This is not to say that you don't do a CP3 trade, but why do we have to give up every player we have in the trade? We did that already and it wasn't really necessary last time and even less so this time. If CP3 will leave as a FA then New Orleans has no options.
Through six years, you have a player who's tracking comparable or better to the names on the list below. I absolutely love Shump, (and I loved Moz, too) but please...potential versus this?
Thru 6 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
Player Sim 1 2 3 4 5 6
Chris Paul 18.3 17.8 13.9 10.4 8.8 7.3
Jerry West 91.9 17.1 16.7 14.0 12.9 8.1 6.6
Walt Frazier 79.2 15.6 15.0 14.5 13.0 12.7 3.5
Magic Johnson 79.0 12.9 12.7 12.5 10.5 10.2 6.4
Sidney Moncrief 78.4 13.4 13.2 12.7 11.2 9.9 4.9
Jimmy Jones 76.9 16.1 10.5 10.3 9.3 9.3 8.3
John Stockton 76.5 15.6 14.4 14.1 6.7 5.9 3.1
Oscar Robertson 73.1 20.6 17.0 16.9 16.8 15.6 13.2
Dwyane Wade 71.6 14.7 14.4 11.0 8.8 4.6 3.3
Reggie Miller 69.9 12.5 12.1 11.3 11.0 6.5 4.2
Michael Jordan 69.4 21.2 19.8 19.0 16.9 14.0 1.5Can you explain what all those numbers mean? CP3 looks much lower than the others, but what do the numbers represent?
From Basketball-Reference.com; figured if I was going to respond to the resident UK statistician/financial-wizard/physicist nixluva, I better bring some numbers...
Similarity Scores:It is important to note that this method does not attempt to find players who were similar in style of play. Rather, it attempts to find players whose careers were similar in terms of quality and shape. By shape, I mean things like: How many years did he play? How good were his best years compared to his worst years? Did he have a few great years and then several mediocre years, or did he have many good-but-not-great years?
the first number is the percentage that the players are similiar in career terms, with 100 being a perfect match. It weights best to worst years on a sliding scale. 1.0, .95, etc... go to the site...i've read the explanation four times and I still don't understand it... but then, I always flunked statistics whenever i took it...
And you'll notice Paul's numbers are higher than Magics...
I really believe we struck gold, he could be the exact player we need. It all depends if he can play the PG efficiently. We need to change the style of play, SSL just doesn't work with Melo, Billups, unless Shumpert plays the point. Billup's cannot create of his feet anymore. Regardless, many of us don't believe this is a winning system anyway.
Our need's is a center and even a backup center/pf.
Like seriously, if our rebounding and defense is really weak, it will be even weaker if Cp3 is added to our core. Our cap would be full on all 3 of these players. Teams can score on us very easily and even grab that offense rebound again and again. This is exactly what's been happening to us the past 10 years. If we want a PG that would make us efficient, target Nash at way lower price tag in the summer. He can be used as tempo changing PG. Again, look at what Miami's trio is, The Bulls, and Thunder's core and their cap room next summer.
They are all already high powered offenses with good defense already, and will only get better with their cap room. We have to create a roster that would make them work for their points. If we believe we have 2 top 15 offensive players already, why do we have to spend the rest of our cap to improve our offense? We can all agree Amare and Melo are both under average defenders. Our goal should be filling in two way players and top defenders to go with what we have. We need to improve our roster and make it 8-10 deep, not 3 deep.
Only player I would go all in for is Dwight Howard because he will is a top defender and can dunk over anyone. He is the only player in the center position that is durable due to his body build. If we can get him, our goal should be to get a balanced roster.
TD can be a very valuable player, I have no given up on him at all. I don't think he is a natural PG and he probably wont be. But he could play a valuable 6th man role. His biggest weakness is that he isn't a good decision make. His 2 greatest strengths is his ability to hit 3's and apply pressure on defense. Iman can totally change his game, if he can play the PG. They would both improve help each other out defensively but much greater if they have a top tier center that is a shot blocker and defender.
I am not exactly saying target these players, I am saying their style of play
Shumpert
Ariza
Melo
Amare
Deandre Jordan/ Chandler/ McGee/ Hibbert/ Gasol/ Duncan I think any of these centers are the types we need.
Bench
Battier/ Tony Allen/ Prince/ Wilson Chandler/ Dunleavey
TD
Nash
Grant Hill/Anthony Paker/ Shannon Brown
Shawne Williams
Delfino/ Kapono/ Peja
Sean Williams/Odom
Greg Foster
Aaron Gray
Jorts/Jerome Jordan
again, I am giving examples of the styles of players I would target.
If we are going to keep Melo and Amare, we should find players that compliment their skills, strengths, and weaknesses.
I want to assemble a team in which players know their roles, players that will play as a team.
Above on the list, a player/ another player, i am giving examples of players that we should target and it means one of the list.
So for example at the starting center
Deandre Jordan/ Tyson Chandler/ McGee/ Hibbert/ Duncan, one of these players.
I do realize this is the hardest position to get quality from too.
Chris Kaman, Spencer Hawes, are the type of centers that might only be available. But I am saying we should target them before going for Cp3 or any PG.
Bynum might even be available, with a team option.
If we can't get a quality center, I would rather spread the rest of the cap up and look to sign players to good contracts rather than overpaying for anyone.
There are plenty of capable PGs and I don't know if Dantoni lasts. We need to build a good, deep team. We're primed for that. And we'll compete this year if we can just add a true C.
Unless Okafor comes with CP3 I wouldn't deplete us any more.
gunsnewing wrote:One thing if I was new Orleans is trade Chris Paul to the Knicks now to tank the season and solidify high draft pick. Because unlike Denver Chris Paul is their whole team
ahh! Kendall Marshall is having a great year so far.
ATrain wrote:gunsnewing wrote:One thing if I was new Orleans is trade Chris Paul to the Knicks now to tank the season and solidify high draft pick. Because unlike Denver Chris Paul is their whole teamahh! Kendall Marshall is having a great year so far.
Marshall reminds me of Pepe Sanchez, Temple's former point guard. I'm not sure he'll be more than backup in the League unless he gets a J. There are a some solid PGs in this years draft. I really like Malik Wayns from Villanova and Marquis Teague from Kentucky. But this looks like a so-so year for point guards, which is a good thing since we may not have a pick this year.