Knicks · Did Racism Keep Jeremy Lin Down? (page 2)

misterearl wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Agreed. Race played a part in this but I think it's only part of the issue. I htink it's more about perception than racism. As Earl said, an Asian guy from Harvard did not fit the profile so people assumed it would not work. Many jumped to a conclusion without analyzing. If Lin does well, the next Asian guy from Harvard will have an easier road.

bippity - think of it this way. Assuming Jeremy Lin would not work is not far off from saying Lin and Carmelo cannot work. There is no precedent for an Asian guy from Harvard teaming up with a Syracuse Orangeman from West Baltimore.

Experts don't know jack about the future.

I'm trying to agree more but it is impossible

Guys it's called stereotyping. This is less about race and more about a stereotype of what a good popularly endorsed deep rooted belief system thinks what a promising young basketball player should look like. Jeremy Lin didn't match any part of that profile. This is the same concept where people keep repeating only defense oriented teams/coaches can win championships. They haven't seen anything else so by extension it does not exist and is not possible.

Game Time

Bippity10 wrote:I'm trying to agree more but it is impossible

bipp - the objective is not to agree. The objective is to think different.

Beat Toronto.

loweyecue wrote:Guys it's called stereotyping. This is less about race and more about a stereotype of what a good popularly endorsed deep rooted belief system thinks what a promising young basketball player should look like. Jeremy Lin didn't match any part of that profile. This is the same concept where people keep repeating only defense oriented teams/coaches can win championships. They haven't seen anything else so by extension it does not exist and is not possible.

yeah I made this exact point a few days ago

the player comparison bit that earl made is spot on. laels is a shortcut that most human minds utilize. there was no "Harvard NBA player" label, not was there an "Asian-American NBA player" label. forget about the "Asian-American Harvard NBA player" label

As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

scoshin wrote:As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

excellent post

I enjoyed Rick Reilly's [url="http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7574087/overlooking-jeremy-lin"]Lin article[/url]. A point made in there that it takes a while to appreciate Lin's game. Part of the reason he is good is because he consistently makes the right decision. That takes multiple viewinigs to evaluate. The the big college programs rely on rating services. Even though the Stanford coaching staff could've walked to see Lin play, that's not how it typically works. Definitely embarrasing for those schools and recruiters though

scoshin wrote:As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

I think one of the better posts on this topic.

And what I read about his time at Harvard, he was still 'weak' his first year or two there - I believe in terms of shooting percentages.

"Palo Alto and Long Beach together now you know you in trouble..."

Set the wayback machine for June 23, 2010

"Stanford standout Landry Fields probably will not get selected in Thursday’s NBA Draft, and the reasons remain a mystery to us.

... NBADraft.net and DraftExpress.com – and neither expects Fields to get drafted. NBADraft.net rates Fields as the No. 93 prospect in the draft, and DraftExpress.com has him only slightly higher at No. 81, behind such budding stars as Kevin Palmer of Texas A&M-Corpus Christi and Tyren Johnson of Louisiana-Lafayette.

Skepticism of the pros’ judgment seeps in when two reputable sources have contradictory assessments. Yahoo.com calls Field “athletic and strong,” and NBADraft.net says a lack of athleticism and footspeed are Fields’ biggest drawbacks. They usually get that information from NBA folks, so you wonder if scouts are looking at the same guy.

And here are the reasons he probably won’t get drafted:

- Lack of team success – The Cardinal was a mediocre team, and NBA guys figure pro-level players can elevate their team.

- Physical limitations – Fields is fluid and a pretty good jumper, but you would not consider him an outstanding athlete. And though he is a lot stronger than he was just a year or two ago, he is still thin and could get pushed around in the pros. (Of course, that did not prevent the NBA from taking Josh Childress with the sixth overall pick.) Fields could be a defensive liability in one-on-one situations.

- Suspect shot – Fields was a decent outside shooter, hitting 33.7 percent of his three-pointers, but he probably has not convinced NBA scouts he has the range needed to play the wing spot in the pros. He was mediocre at the foul line (69.6 percent), and the flat trajectory and severe backspin on his shot are not particularly attractive to scouts either.

- Only one standout season -- During Fields' first three college seasons, nobody thought he was pro material, and a single standout year may not be enough to convince NBA officials he can do it on a regular basis.

- Weird size -- At 6-7, Fields has to be a small forward or shooting guard in the pros, and much of his success in college came in the paint. Scouts don't expect him to do much damage inside in the NBA, despite his repertoire of half hooks and turnaround jumpers.

Bottom line: Fields will not get drafted, but he will make an NBA roster, if not this coming season, then the next season."

- Jake Curtis

misterearl wrote:Bottom line: Fields will not get drafted, but he will make an NBA roster, if not this coming season, then the next season."

if a player is projected to make an NBA roster, shouldn't he get drafted?

SupremeCommander wrote:

scoshin wrote:As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

excellent post

I enjoyed Rick Reilly's [url="http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7574087/overlooking-jeremy-lin"]Lin article[/url]. A point made in there that it takes a while to appreciate Lin's game. Part of the reason he is good is because he consistently makes the right decision. That takes multiple viewinigs to evaluate. The the big college programs rely on rating services. Even though the Stanford coaching staff could've walked to see Lin play, that's not how it typically works. Definitely embarrasing for those schools and recruiters though

Yeah I read that. It's not like Lin was putting up monster numbers in high school or college. he had solid D-League stats last year, but it wasn't like he was killing it. I think being Asian helped a little because it helped draw a little more attention to his game. You have to give Lin the credit for taking advantage of the opportunity. I'm hopeful that he can keep it up.

if there's any way to come out guns blazing it's like this. his story is incredible.

was there racism on the fact that he was overlooked? possibly. i don't think anyone should deny that. but the stars couldn't have aligned more perfectly for this kid and knick fans have fallen in love with NY basketball again. and that's what makes this script so amazing. Hopefully his success will continue and be an inspiration to ballers of all races.

misterearl wrote:Game Time

Bippity10 wrote:I'm trying to agree more but it is impossible

bipp - the objective is not to agree. The objective is to think different.

Beat Toronto.

Once again I'm definitely going to have to agree with you

Lin had some excellent assets like quickness, court vision, and intelligence. But he also had several compelling weaknesses for an NBA prospect. He has short arms, a narrow frame, plus he was a combo guard in college, who played mainly shooting guard, and simply is not big or strong enough to play shooting guard. Another big fear was that the numbers he posted in college were suspect, because he played in a relatively weak basketball conference. Scouts have learned to be much less optimistic about players who haven't proved themselves against top basketball teams. Also he also had an unorthodox shooting style.

If Asian players have shorter arms, and a narrower frame, does that make this prejudice? Nonsense. Scouts study the wingspan, height and vertical jump of players, and also try and determine if they can put on additional weight. Also they generally want point guards with a great deal of experience at the point, which Jeremy didn't have. If a point guard is on the smaller side, they also want to make sure he can shoot consistently from the outside. Jeremy didn't have great shooting fundamentals from the outside. If he scores a lot driving to the basket, they want to be sure that he is an efficient finisher with both hands. Lin wasn't particularly good finishing with his left hand in college.

The biggest problem was that most of what made Jeremy's great was between his ears, and they just couldn't quantify his brain in some way and compare it to other brains. Jeremy's problem was that the statistics he posted were suspect because of the quality of competition he played against. Plus his physical characteristics were not that attractive. Particularly as a combo guard, Jeremy was a long shot. It didn't help things that apparently his scoring average during his time with Golden's State was 31% from what I've read.

Scouts get paid to find winning basketball players so I don't think prejudice has anything to do with it. What saved Jeremy is that he showed enough so that he managed to last long enough with NBA organizations, that he was able to fix enough of his weaknesses and gradually build his confidence until he was finally ready to break out with the Knicks.

Racial prejudice and stereotyping, sure. But not bigotry. They just couldn't see the forest through the trees.

And thanks the sla they didn't, since now he's OURS!!!

scoshin wrote:As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

Very nicely written, agree completely.

loweyecue wrote:

scoshin wrote:As an Asian-American myself, I think his race definitely played a part in why he was denied any scholarships or not given any offers to a PAC-10 college, despite being California player of the year and winning the state championship. He was the best player on the best team, in one of the largest states of the nation. Let's be real. If he were black or white, he would've had to fend off suitors. And yet he only received guarantees from Harvard and Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think his race played as much a part of him being overlooked by NBA scouts. People point to the fact that he was undrafted, but it's tough for scouts to really evaluate prospects when they're not routinely going up against equal competition. I think coming out of Harvard hurt his draft chances more than him being Asian. It also took only one summer league game against John Wall for Lin to get a 2-year rookie contract from Golden State, and reportedly the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks were interested in him at the time as well. I mean, there are some 2nd round picks who don't get a contract by the team that drafted them.

As to why he never got playtime once he made it to the NBA? I'd say that was just a matter of poor circumstances, playing behind established starters in Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis, and clearly having the jitters every time he stepped on the court for GS. What we have now is a more cool and composed Jeremy Lin, who's not daunted by the spotlight, and one who also realized that after being waived twice, this was his LAST chance to mark his name upon the NBA. And he seized the opportunity.

Very nicely written, agree completely.

Yes what really strikes me is that NOTHING seems to have broken his spirit. Some guys might have pouted when sent to the D League. When the Knicks sent him, he wasn't happy, but he totally put his heart into the stint and I think that really impressed the Knicks. Look at how Darko reacted to only being taken out of the rotation and he pouted. That says a lot about a player in the eyes of MDA. MDA is clearly a guy that wants players to fight for their spot. We've seen him do this over and over to players and the ones that fight become his favorites. It's Lin's determination and heart that people are responding to. His race only makes it a bit more of a great story and he's an inspiration to those underdogs in society.

Another explanation is that Lin is an extremely unlikely outlier, the likes of which has never been seen before. (He should be featured in a new chapter by Malcolm Gladwell for the next edition of his book!)

Sites like draftexpress and nbadraft.net assess players as objectively as possible. They identified shooting as a hole in his game (most of his scoring does come near the basket), and his quickness/athleticism/wingspan are less than ideal. Plus he played in a less-than ideal program, facing lower end competition.

Pro sports scouts tend to favor players (regardless of sport) that exhibit the right physical traits. If a player looks the part, it sometimes outweighs the mental component. It's tough to measure sports IQ, particularly in team sports.

In 5 games, Lin has exceeded all expectations... he's better than he ever has been at any level. It's not something that could have been easily predicted.

White guys get compared to Bird, Black guys get compared to other black guys etc etc.

I have seen it done innocently over and over again by writers and fans alike.

Lin avged 15 and 7 in highschool and I think was 6-1 and like many his age im gonna guess pretty slender.

Its obvious in hindsight he was over looked and perhaps he had no "Peer" to be compared too.

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

Nalod wrote:White guys get compared to Bird, Black guys get compared to other black guys etc etc.

I have seen it done innocently over and over again by writers and fans alike.

Lin avged 15 and 7 in highschool and I think was 6-1 and like many his age im gonna guess pretty slender.

Its obvious in hindsight he was over looked and perhaps he had no "Peer" to be compared too.

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

Steve Nash was drafted 15th in the draft after Kobe Bryant and Peja Stojakovic.

Steve Nash had already put up solid stats in the NBA. His assist stats jumped when he went to Phoenix. PG's have more control over the game in D'Antoni's offense. Let's not pretend like Steve Nash was some scrub when he came to Phoenix.

To be fair... Nash was just a GOOD, not great starting PG.

Moving from Dallas to Phoenix, he went from being a borderline top 15 PG to #1PG/2-time MVP when he joined forces with D'Antoni. His jump into HOF-greatness could not be predicted.

AnubisADL wrote:

Nalod wrote:White guys get compared to Bird, Black guys get compared to other black guys etc etc.

I have seen it done innocently over and over again by writers and fans alike.

Lin avged 15 and 7 in highschool and I think was 6-1 and like many his age im gonna guess pretty slender.

Its obvious in hindsight he was over looked and perhaps he had no "Peer" to be compared too.

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

Steve Nash was drafted 15th in the draft after Kobe Bryant and Peja Stojakovic.

Steve Nash had already put up solid stats in the NBA. His assist stats jumped when he went to Phoenix. PG's have more control over the game in D'Antoni's offense. Let's not pretend like Steve Nash was some scrub when he came to Phoenix.

Nope.

But a future two time MVP and Hall of famers don't come out of Santa Clara at the 15th pick.

Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 PHI Allen Iverson Georgetown
2 TOR Marcus Camby Massachusetts
3 VAN Shareef AbdurRahim California
4 MIL Stephon Marbury Georgia Tech
5 MIN Ray Allen Connecticut
6 BOS Antoine Walker Kentucky
7 LAC Lorenzen Wright Memphis (TN)
8 NJN Kerry Kittles Villanova
9 DAL Samaki Walker Louisville
10 IND Erick Dampier Mississippi State
11 GSW Todd Fuller North Carolina State
12 CLE Vitaly Potapenko Wright State
13 CHA Kobe Bryant Lower Merion (PA) HS
14 SAC Predrag Stojakovic PAOK Greece
15 PHO Steve Nash Santa Clara
16 CHA Tony Delk Kentucky
17 POR Jermaine ONeal Eau Claire (SC) HS
18 NYK John Wallace Syracuse
19 NYK Walter McCarty Kentucky
20 CLE Zydrunas Ilgauskas Lithuania
21 NYK Dontae' Jones Mississippi State
22 VAN Roy Rogers Alabama
23 DEN Efthimis Rentzias PAOK Greece
24 LAL Derek Fisher Arkansas-Little Rock
25 UTA Martin Muursepp Kalev Tallin (Estonia)
26 DET Jerome Williams Georgetown
27 ORL Brian Evans Indiana
28 ATL Priest Lauderdale Central St/Greece
29 CHI Travis Knight Connecticut

How many HOF's go at no. 15? How many HOF's are in that class?
Lets not pretend your abrasive nature goes unoticed.