Knicks · Did Racism Keep Jeremy Lin Down? (page 3)

AnubisADL wrote:

Nalod wrote:White guys get compared to Bird, Black guys get compared to other black guys etc etc.

I have seen it done innocently over and over again by writers and fans alike.

Lin avged 15 and 7 in highschool and I think was 6-1 and like many his age im gonna guess pretty slender.

Its obvious in hindsight he was over looked and perhaps he had no "Peer" to be compared too.

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

Steve Nash was drafted 15th in the draft after Kobe Bryant and Peja Stojakovic.

Steve Nash had already put up solid stats in the NBA. His assist stats jumped when he went to Phoenix. PG's have more control over the game in D'Antoni's offense. Let's not pretend like Steve Nash was some scrub when he came to Phoenix.

Nope.

But a future two time MVP and Hall of famers don't come out of Santa Clara at the 15th pick.

Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 PHI Allen Iverson Georgetown
2 TOR Marcus Camby Massachusetts
3 VAN Shareef AbdurRahim California
4 MIL Stephon Marbury Georgia Tech
5 MIN Ray Allen Connecticut
6 BOS Antoine Walker Kentucky
7 LAC Lorenzen Wright Memphis (TN)
8 NJN Kerry Kittles Villanova
9 DAL Samaki Walker Louisville
10 IND Erick Dampier Mississippi State
11 GSW Todd Fuller North Carolina State
12 CLE Vitaly Potapenko Wright State
13 CHA Kobe Bryant Lower Merion (PA) HS
14 SAC Predrag Stojakovic PAOK Greece
15 PHO Steve Nash Santa Clara
16 CHA Tony Delk Kentucky
17 POR Jermaine ONeal Eau Claire (SC) HS
18 NYK John Wallace Syracuse
19 NYK Walter McCarty Kentucky
20 CLE Zydrunas Ilgauskas Lithuania
21 NYK Dontae' Jones Mississippi State
22 VAN Roy Rogers Alabama
23 DEN Efthimis Rentzias PAOK Greece
24 LAL Derek Fisher Arkansas-Little Rock
25 UTA Martin Muursepp Kalev Tallin (Estonia)
26 DET Jerome Williams Georgetown
27 ORL Brian Evans Indiana
28 ATL Priest Lauderdale Central St/Greece
29 CHI Travis Knight Connecticut

How many HOF's go at no. 15? How many HOF's are in that class?
Lets not pretend your abrasive nature goes unoticed.

If we rate player success based on MVPs, Nash must then be better than Kobe. :)

What an impressive draft - perhaps one of the best in history with 3 different MVPs, a whole host of all-stars, NBA starters, and role players. Very few complete busts.

Kobe
Iverson
Nash
Allen

Peja
Camby
SAR
Marbury
Antoine Walker
Dampier
Ilgauskas
Jermaine O'Neal

Quite a few others had solid impact
L Wright
Kerry Kittles
Delk
Fisher
Jerome Williams
Travis Knight
Fuller

Sure race could have played a role but on the face of it, Lin doesn't have a crazy handle nor does he have a nice stroke or a pretty shooting form...The guy just balls...His skills are more suited for game play and not warm up or practice...I could see why he might have been overlooked outside of a game situation...MDA did say he missed lots of shot in practice so they didn't see this coming...

If Nash went to some other team other than the Suns there's a chance he never becomes the legend he is now. Latent abilities get wasted all the time. There's a degree of luck involved in every success story. Imagine that The Blazers took Michale Jordan instead of the Bulls. Who knows how that might have effected MJ's career. That certainly effected the career of Phil Jackson. He may never have gone on to become the coach he is today. Lin seems to be one of those strange twist of fate guys that fell into the right set of circumstances.

Guys, let Lin develop...he is already the anointed one...Essentially he is still a rookie and will make lots of mistakes....Please stop the MJ and Nash talk when it comes to this guy...

Nalod wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

Nalod wrote:White guys get compared to Bird, Black guys get compared to other black guys etc etc.

I have seen it done innocently over and over again by writers and fans alike.

Lin avged 15 and 7 in highschool and I think was 6-1 and like many his age im gonna guess pretty slender.

Its obvious in hindsight he was over looked and perhaps he had no "Peer" to be compared too.

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

Steve Nash was drafted 15th in the draft after Kobe Bryant and Peja Stojakovic.

Steve Nash had already put up solid stats in the NBA. His assist stats jumped when he went to Phoenix. PG's have more control over the game in D'Antoni's offense. Let's not pretend like Steve Nash was some scrub when he came to Phoenix.

Nope.

But a future two time MVP and Hall of famers don't come out of Santa Clara at the 15th pick.

Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 PHI Allen Iverson Georgetown
2 TOR Marcus Camby Massachusetts
3 VAN Shareef AbdurRahim California
4 MIL Stephon Marbury Georgia Tech
5 MIN Ray Allen Connecticut
6 BOS Antoine Walker Kentucky
7 LAC Lorenzen Wright Memphis (TN)
8 NJN Kerry Kittles Villanova
9 DAL Samaki Walker Louisville
10 IND Erick Dampier Mississippi State
11 GSW Todd Fuller North Carolina State
12 CLE Vitaly Potapenko Wright State
13 CHA Kobe Bryant Lower Merion (PA) HS
14 SAC Predrag Stojakovic PAOK Greece
15 PHO Steve Nash Santa Clara
16 CHA Tony Delk Kentucky
17 POR Jermaine ONeal Eau Claire (SC) HS
18 NYK John Wallace Syracuse
19 NYK Walter McCarty Kentucky
20 CLE Zydrunas Ilgauskas Lithuania
21 NYK Dontae' Jones Mississippi State
22 VAN Roy Rogers Alabama
23 DEN Efthimis Rentzias PAOK Greece
24 LAL Derek Fisher Arkansas-Little Rock
25 UTA Martin Muursepp Kalev Tallin (Estonia)
26 DET Jerome Williams Georgetown
27 ORL Brian Evans Indiana
28 ATL Priest Lauderdale Central St/Greece
29 CHI Travis Knight Connecticut

How many HOF's go at no. 15? How many HOF's are in that class?
Lets not pretend your abrasive nature goes unoticed.

Going to a small school may cause you slide some but that doesnt mean you wont be drafted. Steve Nash WAS drafted and always had talent.

MVP talent can come from anywhere man. Jeremy Lin wasnt drafted because he didnt stand out from the other guards in the draft. First round means guaranteed contract.

Yi got drafted 6th. Yao Ming #1 The NBA doesnt care if you are Iranian. If you have athleticism or some skill that makes you stand out amongst the competition you will get drafted.

I was listening to WFAN this morning and there was a coach on air that had Lin in Dallas during summer league when he lit up John Wall. Long story short, the dude said that Lin is a completely different player today. Said something to the effect that he didn't have the size or composure.

Give the kid credit, he worked his ass off and ran with the ball when he got his opporunity. No way race played into Lin not getting run.

jrodmc wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:The Knicks picked him up after the Boston game, I believe. He wasn't able to even get on the practice court, according to MDA, because he was focused on getting Bibby, Shump and Douglas going. Even MDA admitted he was ignorant in this situation. Whether it's true or not, I have no clue.

MDA has been quoted as saying that Lin "came out of nowhere."

So we have someone in Lin who:
Has his coach humbled and at the same time happy that people are seeing his O-system for what it is.
A player who's handling the hype like a normal human being, for once, who's not flouting his instant fame, but who continues to talk about the game, his teammates and his coach [thankfully, he's got no reason to talk about Dolan or IT]
Superstar teammates who are publicly laying aside huge portions of ego and are acknowledging this players talent and impact.

This could be the one magical year where:
The Giants win the Superbowl [check]
The Knicks win the Finals
The Yankees win the Series [pencil check]

I love life. Really.

Not sure about Knicks but Rangers have a real shot on Stanley Cup.

the guys on PTI had a good point tonite.

Lin might have faced racial bias but he is being compensated for it with extreme media attention.

The very Asian thing that kept him down is actually propelling him to stardom.

Nalod wrote:the guys on PTI had a good point tonite.

Lin might have faced racial bias but he is being compensated for it with extreme media attention.

The very Asian thing that kept him down is actually propelling him to stardom.

LIKE EMINEM

rvwink wrote:Lin had some excellent assets like quickness, court vision, and intelligence. But he also had several compelling weaknesses for an NBA prospect. He has short arms, a narrow frame, plus he was a combo guard in college, who played mainly shooting guard, and simply is not big or strong enough to play shooting guard. Another big fear was that the numbers he posted in college were suspect, because he played in a relatively weak basketball conference. Scouts have learned to be much less optimistic about players who haven't proved themselves against top basketball teams. Also he also had an unorthodox shooting style.

If Asian players have shorter arms, and a narrower frame, does that make this prejudice?

He has a 6-5 wing span at 6 foot 3. Not exactly extremely long but not short either. (He's no Kevin Willis with T Rex arms).
Not sure where you got this idea that he has short arms.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jeremy-Lin-5802/stats/

Nalod wrote:

Nash went to Santa Clara and not exactly a powerhouse school. He was canadian. It took hima few years to get established and even overlooked for contract extension by Cuban at age 29 due to potential back problems. I'd say Nash was over looked.

Im sure Race had some part in his not being offered a scholarship but not being drafted. He has not shown to be exceptional.

But he is now.

Race is all around us. We talk about it too!

The Canadian, Nash got a scholarship from Santa Clara. (which is ironically in the bay area where Lin is from) Lin got zero scholarship offers from colleges.

technomaster wrote:Another explanation is that Lin is an extremely unlikely outlier, the likes of which has never been seen before. (He should be featured in a new chapter by Malcolm Gladwell for the next edition of his book!)

Sites like draftexpress and nbadraft.net assess players as objectively as possible. They identified shooting as a hole in his game (most of his scoring does come near the basket), and his quickness/athleticism/wingspan are less than ideal. Plus he played in a less-than ideal program, facing lower end competition.

Pro sports scouts tend to favor players (regardless of sport) that exhibit the right physical traits. If a player looks the part, it sometimes outweighs the mental component. It's tough to measure sports IQ, particularly in team sports.

In 5 games, Lin has exceeded all expectations... he's better than he ever has been at any level. It's not something that could have been easily predicted.

Hoops expert, Ed Weiland had Jeremy Lin as the #2 point guard in the draft behind John Wall. Weiland measured Lin objectively as possible and Lin's RSB40 and 2pt FG% numbers were off the charts which is the best indicator of NBA athleticism and success for an NBA guard. And again his wingspan is about average for an NBA point guard not sure where this myth that it's below average comes from.

Ed Weiland:
"The RSB40 is combined rebounds, steals and blocks per 40 minutes and is a number I use to assign athleticism to a guard. The steals are the only stat in that number that is typically associated with guards. The reason I add in rebounds and blocks is it separates the guys who really dominate from those who are just ball hawks. Historically a high RSB40 has been a very good thing, while a low number has been a red flag for guards who still meet the necessary scoring, passing and efficiency criteria for prospects."

"Jeremy Lin, G Harvard
by Ed Weiland

Any team looking to find a starting PG in the 2010 NBA draft had best win the lottery and get the top pick. A year after the legendary PG draft of 2009, the pickings for playmakers are going to be thin. That doesn’t mean there won’t be a player or two who surprise the experts though.

The best candidate to pull off such a surprise might be Harvard’s Jeremy Lin. The reason is two numbers Lin posted, 2-point FG pct and RSB40. Lin was at .598 and 9.7. This is impressive on both counts. These numbers show NBA athleticism better than any other, because a high score in both shows dominance at the college level on both ends of the court. Here is a list of recent college PGs who topped .540 and 9.0:"

...
"But Lin put up his numbers in the Ivy League, while most of the players on the list played in major conferences. This is a big deal. For players from a small conference the jump to the NBA is a lot tougher. They don’t get the exposure, unless their team makes the tournament. They need to be that much better statistically to stand out. Lin made his mark in the preseason when he averaged 23.3 PPG while shooting 63% in a 3-game stretch against UConn, BC and Georgetown. Typically players from small colleges see their numbers dip, sometimes drastically, when stepping up in competition. That Lin was able to not only be competitive, but excel in these situations is impressive. What I like to do with small college players is compare their numbers to those of successful small college players from the past. Here’s a list of college PGs who have successfully made the jump from small conferences to the NBA and their senior year stats:"

...
"I like Jeremy Lin as a PG prospect, but he isn’t without flaws and concerns. He isn’t a great passer yet and he didn’t score as frequently as a prospect from a small college should. Both numbers are in the grey area though. They’re lower than I’d like them to be, but not low enough that I’d say Jeremy Lin was doomed as a prospect. That being noted, he does bring that combination of a high 2-point pct. and RSB40, which has been a very, very good thing for aspiring NBA PGs to have on their college report card in past years. This is a weak year for both PGs and combo guards. After John Wall there are no sure things. Jeremy Lin might be the #2 PG available in this draft. He looks to me like a sleeper in the mold of George Hill. He appears to have the skills to become at least a usable combo guard. If he can get the passing thing down and handle the point, Jeremy Lin is a good enough player to start in the NBA and possibly star."

http://hoopsanalyst.com/blog/?p=487

Not sure about racism. Tough to really comment. However, I would caution confusing racism with bias. Racism implies intent (I verified this with multiple online dictionaries before posting.) I'm sure there's bias along the lines of what was said earlier. If Lin is blazing a trail, I definitely applaud him for that. He's a hell of a player and really an inspiration for what hard work gets you.

Solace wrote:Not sure about racism. Tough to really comment. However, I would caution confusing racism with bias. Racism implies intent (I verified this with multiple online dictionaries before posting.) I'm sure there's bias along the lines of what was said earlier. If Lin is blazing a trail, I definitely applaud him for that. He's a hell of a player and really an inspiration for what hard work gets you.

Alot of racism is based on ignorance (based on the status quo) though not intent. Look at segregation, or the second class status of Indians in South Africa and India (which Ghandi combated). I'd say most of the people of that era didn't intend to be racist. They were just ignorant of the status quo and beliefs because of society's stereotypes or institutions. Once Ghandi and MLK showed them that it was wrong most people changed their beliefs.

At one time Amos and Andy was considered funny but now it's considered racist. The people who made those characters intended to be funny not racist, just like the hecklers who say Won Ton Soup, Open Your Eyes, etc to Jeremy Lin or Jason Whitlock/Fuzzy Zoeller were trying to be funny and probably didn't have the intention of being racist. It was more ignorance.

Of course there are people who genuinely do have the intention of being racist or having hatred. Hate groups, etc. Those people cannot be helped. But the majority of racism is based on ignorance.

Nothin' But A Brain Thing

Hippo wrote:A lot of racism is based on ignorance (based on the status quo) though not intent.

Racism, by definition, is the enforcement of superiority of one race OVER another, supported by any tactics available. The intent of racism is to preserve privilege. Ignorance only supplies the fuel.

Jeremy Lin was victimized by three preferences for the familiar. Harvard? Asian American? "Freakish" athleticism?

"Palo Alto and Long Beach together now you know you in trouble..." just didn't sound right.

Guys, Lin is not a victim. The statistical model used to evaluate players for NBA readiness is what it is for a reason. No model is perfect and Lin is a perfect outlier. The traditional model cannot accommodate intelligence as a skill or a factor when evaluating prospects, but by and large the model gets it right and that's why we have it in place.

Jeremy Lin is a once in a lifetime type black swan. You cannot predict this no matter how good a model you build. That doesn't mean you should stop trying to build and use models for evaluation.

What amazes me is that in many people's mind the model and it's predictability has become religion and they are still trying to fit Lin into this belief system and coming up short. Just because something works 98% of the time doesn't make it an absolute truth. These measurements and models are supposed to be "guides" in making the decision not the the " last word" in the evaluation.

You can't fit a black swan into a statistical model, they are anomalies. This one happens to be in our favor can we please just enjoy it while it lasts?

Big difference between Racism and Stereotyping. Lin was a victim of Stereotyping, not racism.

stereotype

A stereotype is a popular belief about specific types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions. Another name for stereotyping is bias. A bias is a tendency, most of these are good like knowing to eat food instead of paper clips, but sometimes stereotyping can turn into discrimination if we misinterpret a bias and act upon it in a negative manner.

ChuckBuck wrote:Big difference between Racism and Stereotyping. Lin was a victim of Stereotyping, not racism.

Muchas Gracias for helping to define terms.

Are Rubio, Gasol and Jose Calderon racist or merely ignorant?

Jeremy Lin 3 - Spain 0
http://bayarea.sbnation.com/2012/2/15/2799435/jeremy-lin-spain-basketball-pau-gasol-ricky-rubio-jose-calderon

Hippo wrote:Are Rubio, Gasol and Jose Calderon racist or merely ignorant?

Ask youself whether Calderon, Rubio or Gasol support the enforcement of superiority of one race OVER another.

Or are they simply jealous?