Knicks · Simple Fix (start Shump) (page 3)

gunsnewing wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Shump looks better because he is now playing with Lin & Davis not TD & Walker. Seriously the times both Lin & Shump have been in the backcourt together since Linsanity started has been awesome to watch. Ask Crzymdups

Shump has looked good coming off the bench all year. also, I don't see the point in screwin around with the rotation right now. things are going well and everyone seems to understand their role. why risk fuckin around with other players' confidence, especially when we're talking about elevating a rookie. you want to put a rookie in a position to succeed and he's succeeding with important rotation minutes. this is good for short and, more importantly, long term

Last year Fields was a 2nd rounder thrusted into the starting lineup and handled it well. And he is doesn't have half the confidence Shump has. IMO it is the inevitable whether its this year or next. Shump is the starting SG. Fields goes to the bench until we can no longer afford to keep him. Then he is expendable with Novak and maybe even JR filling more pressing needs

Fields was also not a SG. I think we can all agree that was a result of necessity, and that we were all shocked (and happy) that it worked. That is the exception, not the rule

gunsnewing wrote:enough with the trades. Last thing we need to do is bring in another player and try to get the team accustomed to playing with him and vice versa

agreed there

+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

SlimChin wrote:+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

he also needs the ball to be effective. Fields plays off the ball with Lin better than anyone else on the Knicks, including Chandler. I know Lin can ball, but the offense still has not figured out how to fully integrate Melo and Amar'e and Shump will not help there. I don't see what some of you see and would welcome an explantation for how the pieces fit

Anji wrote:I was wrong about JR smith, but I would rather Shump start over Landry.

I also think that stat and Landry should be moved for the last peice this team needs, mainly power forward that could put up 15and10 every night with a little D.

so 15 games is enough to figure what the last piece is? Lets dump a 7 time all star because he's clearly shot after 30 subcareer games? Do you divorce your wife after your first fight?

Man... let Amare work it out. Wow what short memories.

SupremeCommander wrote:

SlimChin wrote:+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

he also needs the ball to be effective. Fields plays off the ball with Lin better than anyone else on the Knicks, including Chandler. I know Lin can ball, but the offense still has not figured out how to fully integrate Melo and Amar'e and Shump will not help there. I don't see what some of you see and would welcome an explantation for how the pieces fit

hmmm that is interesting and the only reason to leave Shump in with the second unit. Although Lin can push the ball, the starting 5 runs more of a half court offense which would take away some of Shump's effectiveness. With that said its still worth starting him for his defense because you can't go down 17pts to Miami & Chicago and expect to come back and win.

gunsnewing wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

SlimChin wrote:+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

he also needs the ball to be effective. Fields plays off the ball with Lin better than anyone else on the Knicks, including Chandler. I know Lin can ball, but the offense still has not figured out how to fully integrate Melo and Amar'e and Shump will not help there. I don't see what some of you see and would welcome an explantation for how the pieces fit

hmmm that is interesting and the only reason to leave Shump in with the second unit. Although Lin can push the ball, the starting 5 runs more of a half court offense which would take away some of Shump's effectiveness. With that said its still worth starting him for his defense because you can't go down 17pts to Miami & Chicago and expect to come back and win.

it reminds me of the 99 Knicks that way. Starting linup was BIG. Then the 2nd unit was fast and had game changing athleticism. Remember the Knicks started LJ/Kurt then Camby/Spree/Childs came off the bench.

Last night Cle (decent team and getting better) had zero answer for our 2nd unit. Baron/Shump/JR/Novak/JJ is really nice group and mix of defense, sick hops and shooting with an all star crafty floor general looking more to set up than take a tone of shots.

gunsnewing wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

SlimChin wrote:+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

he also needs the ball to be effective. Fields plays off the ball with Lin better than anyone else on the Knicks, including Chandler. I know Lin can ball, but the offense still has not figured out how to fully integrate Melo and Amar'e and Shump will not help there. I don't see what some of you see and would welcome an explantation for how the pieces fit

hmmm that is interesting and the only reason to leave Shump in with the second unit. Although Lin can push the ball, the starting 5 runs more of a half court offense which would take away some of Shump's effectiveness. With that said its still worth starting him for his defense because you can't go down 17pts to Miami & Chicago and expect to come back and win.

honestly, I think it has more to do with the team--specificaly Amar'e and Melo--coming out flat than Fields. I like that you're thinking about simple ways to fix this, but I think it could cause more harm than good. Melo and Amar'e need to come out ready to go.

SupremeCommander wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

SlimChin wrote:+1. Shump can create for himself if he has to and he's a better ball handler than Fields. I get nervous when Fields starts dribbling. Fields also gets burned a lot by quick shooting guards.

gunsnewing wrote:We've seen this starting unit play together long enough and come out flat every game. Maybe a small change up like starting Shump to team up with Tyson for defense makes all the difference. Without doing something drastic like benching $100m Amare for $200,000 Jorts. Also Shump will help Lin bring the ball up when he is pressured like in the Heat game and he shoots 86% from the line as opposed to Fields 60%

he also needs the ball to be effective. Fields plays off the ball with Lin better than anyone else on the Knicks, including Chandler. I know Lin can ball, but the offense still has not figured out how to fully integrate Melo and Amar'e and Shump will not help there. I don't see what some of you see and would welcome an explantation for how the pieces fit

hmmm that is interesting and the only reason to leave Shump in with the second unit. Although Lin can push the ball, the starting 5 runs more of a half court offense which would take away some of Shump's effectiveness. With that said its still worth starting him for his defense because you can't go down 17pts to Miami & Chicago and expect to come back and win.

honestly, I think it has more to do with the team--specificaly Amar'e and Melo--coming out flat than Fields. I like that you're thinking about simple ways to fix this, but I think it could cause more harm than good. Melo and Amar'e need to come out ready to go.

i agree our two stars have to come out much more energetic and efficent. I mean they now have a pg that will make life easy for the so all they have to do is score

Allstar or not, looking at the team and where the team can take the next step Amare never was a player to play defense or rebound at a high level.

His game basically overlaps both Melo and TC, that will never change. He need to be in the PnR or he needs to in that mid range near the block. The team would be better with a guy like Ersan Ilyasova or Ryan Anderson.

fishmike wrote:

Anji wrote:I was wrong about JR smith, but I would rather Shump start over Landry.

I also think that stat and Landry should be moved for the last peice this team needs, mainly power forward that could put up 15and10 every night with a little D.

so 15 games is enough to figure what the last piece is? Lets dump a 7 time all star because he's clearly shot after 30 subcareer games? Do you divorce your wife after your first fight?

Man... let Amare work it out. Wow what short memories.

Shumps defense is why he should start, he is at the lease as active without the ball as Landry and defensively when he gets his hands on balls he has the ability to get alot of his offense that way.

Ball handing, Defense, energy and effort are the things that Shump brings and those are things the starting unit could really use.

I have to agree 100%. This team needs Shump to start. No question. That is a big ingredient in becoming a much better team. It is such a different team when he is in there. He is still a rookie and will be inconsistent at times but once he improves his outside shot he is going to be a STAR. Maybe a superstar?? As long as his knee is healthy he should start. His outside shot right now is equal to Fields yet he brings so much more to the team. Him and Lin will penetrate at will. Shump attacking the basket is SICK. We also could use his defense with the starters.

I like Fields but as long as his shot is suspect he really is limited when hes not hitting his shot. Looking at the future I rather keep JR than Fields. Jr is such a great athlete and so talented. We need to keep him! He is still very young. He reminds me of Spree.

I like the 1st unit: Lin, Shump, Melo, Amare, Chandler
the 2nd unit: Davis, JR, and a combo of Novak,Jeffries, Fields, and Jorts (Depending on matchups, who is playing well that night,etc)

I agree that Shump needs to start at the 2. Fields would make that #2 unit complete (at small forward)

1st team

Pg: Lin (playmaker)
Sg: Shump (defender & hustle player)
Sf: Melo (primary scorer)
Pf: Amare (primary scorer)
C: Chandler (defender & hustle player)

2nd team

Pg: B.Davis (playmaker)
Sg: Jr Smith (primary scorer)
Sf: Fields (hustle player & 3rd scoring option)
Pf: Novak (primary scorer)
C: Jefferies (hustle player & defender)

TLover wrote:I agree that Shump needs to start at the 2. Fields would make that #2 unit complete (at small forward)

1st team

Pg: Lin (playmaker)
Sg: Shump (defender & hustle player)
Sf: Melo (primary scorer)
Pf: Amare (primary scorer)
C: Chandler (defender & hustle player)

2nd team

Pg: B.Davis (playmaker)
Sg: Jr Smith (primary scorer)
Sf: Fields (hustle player & 3rd scoring option)
Pf: Novak (primary scorer)
C: Jefferies (hustle player & defender)

Agreed. It just makes sense. And I do not think it is such a huge deal that it will disrupt chemistry.

The bottom line to me is, Fields is not a shooting guard. We needed him to play shooting guard because we had no other real choice. But now he is our 5th-best guard, and 3rd-best shooting guard. So there is no reason at all to start him anymore, or to even play him at guard. Let him go where he belongs -- as a backup small forward.

With Smith and Shumpert in the fold now, there's no reason both should be coming off the bench, and Fields starting. It makes no sense at all. Smith and Shumpert are shooting guards, and pretty good ones. Pick one to start and the other to come off the bench.

Since the starting unit needs defense more than offense, you start Shumpert, and let Smith come off the bench.

And it gets Fields to his natural position.

Pretty simple and logical.

"If you wanna crown Shumpert then crown Novak's ass, too" - Dennis Green

The Discount Novacheck Shiftline

Two Yoots
G: Lin (thank for for the double double)
G: Iman (the orange kicks make his defensive backpedal look that much sweeter)

F: Melo 6'9 (posting and toasting, playing better defense than is recognized or acknowledged)
F: Novak 6'10 ("yo, you better put someone out there... no, WAY out there")
C: Chandler 7' (The Captain, enough said)

Grandmaster Crash and The Furious Five

Two Vets
G: The Baron of Facial Hair (that 85 STILL looks wack, this ain't football)
G: JR Smith (a nightmare matchup at 6'6)

F: Fields (6'7, develops as a rebounding specialist)
F: Jeffries (Grandmaster Crash is leading the league in charges absorbed, a 6'11 perimeter defender is an anomaly, but kinda cool)
C: Stoudemire (his fragile knees are grateful for the reduced minutes, can cameo at center even though he ain't a center)

well, guns, I'm still a Fields fan but I now favor droping Fields from the starting lineup. I am not as sour on Fields as some, but the perimeter defense was a huge problem the past few games.

I probably would promote JR Smith though, because I like the chess-like aspect of putting Shump on the other team's best perimeter weapon and then making the other coach figure out a way to get him looks in the middle of the game.

Plus, the Knicks need someone to hit that corner three, and I have just as much faith in Shump hitting it as I do Fields at this point

At least defensively, Shumpert and TC could get the first units energy up. Bad enough we only have Tyson covering up for the other 4 defensively challenged starters.

You start Shump, he cramps up or gets hurt after a few games and Fields is back in the starting line up anyway.
Move on.

Figure out how to get Jorts into the lineup so we're not watching uncontested layups at key points in the game.

I like shumps energy at the games end. I don't know if you give him big minutes he can sustain and finish as well.

Few players can go that hard the whole game.

Erniecat wrote:

TLover wrote:I agree that Shump needs to start at the 2. Fields would make that #2 unit complete (at small forward)

1st team

Pg: Lin (playmaker)
Sg: Shump (defender & hustle player)
Sf: Melo (primary scorer)
Pf: Amare (primary scorer)
C: Chandler (defender & hustle player)

2nd team

Pg: B.Davis (playmaker)
Sg: Jr Smith (primary scorer)
Sf: Fields (hustle player & 3rd scoring option)
Pf: Novak (primary scorer)
C: Jefferies (hustle player & defender)

Agreed. It just makes sense. And I do not think it is such a huge deal that it will disrupt chemistry.

The bottom line to me is, Fields is not a shooting guard. We needed him to play shooting guard because we had no other real choice. But now he is our 5th-best guard, and 3rd-best shooting guard. So there is no reason at all to start him anymore, or to even play him at guard. Let him go where he belongs -- as a backup small forward.

With Smith and Shumpert in the fold now, there's no reason both should be coming off the bench, and Fields starting. It makes no sense at all. Smith and Shumpert are shooting guards, and pretty good ones. Pick one to start and the other to come off the bench.

Since the starting unit needs defense more than offense, you start Shumpert, and let Smith come off the bench.

And it gets Fields to his natural position.

Pretty simple and logical.

I agree too. I think another aspect no has mentioned yet is the help w/ rebounding Fields brings with Novak playing the 4 in the 2nd unit. On offense it opens the lane more for Fields to do back cuts and go after second chance points whiling playing his natural 3 position.

jrodmc wrote:You start Shump, he cramps up or gets hurt after a few games and Fields is back in the starting line up anyway.
Move on.

Figure out how to get Jorts into the lineup so we're not watching uncontested layups at key points in the game.

I agree about getting Jorts in there. And its simple give him Fields 10-15 bench minutes