Knicks · With Chandler, Melo, and Stat probably only having 3 solid yrs left. I can see Knicks brass giving Nash the MLE. (page 3)
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
That and a quarter will get him a gum ball. Lin is not a veteran who's earned tens of millions already. No way he will or should take a gigantic pay cut.It might get him a gumball but it can also increase his effectiveness as a PG and long term increase his value. Lin is going to get his share of endorsements, worldwide, lets not act like his paycheck will be the only money he will be taking in. Lin will have much more exposure in NY even coming off the bench for a couple of years than he would possibly playing for a small market team.
The difference between the MLE and LLE is too huge though. No way he takes a 2 year, $5 mil offer (LLE) over a 5 year, $30 mil offer just to learn from the a great PG or just to some day increase his value. That's $25 mil in guaranteed money in a professional where you can have a career ending injury at any moment.
You could be right. That is a great deal of money. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't believe Lin will be ready for a few years to go up against the better PGs in the league. There are very few veteran PGs I'd be willing to let Lin walk for. Nash is definitely one of them. I would rather this squad made a real run at the title sooner rather than later.
GustavBahler wrote:RoyBatty wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
What if we can't make it work numbers-wise? That's the question right. We hope for a sunny day where both Lin and Nash can be accommodated financially, but assuming them as maximizing economic actors, we have to assume it might not be possible .Who do we choose?
I understand its a possibility that Lin could walk. My problem is that some posters (not necessarily you) are treating Lin like he is the second coming of Rondo based on Linsanity. Lin still has to develop.What we need right now is a PG who can put Melo, Stat and everyone else, on the same page. If one of the greatest PGs ever is available for very little, and still playing at a high level, I think you have to go for it. I don't want to kick the can down the road any longer. To me penciling Lin is as the starter when his skills as PG aren't there yet is doing just that.
Most young players need to develop. Wben was the last time we developed one Patrick Ewing 30years ago? Whats wrong with letting a 23yr old develop? Nash didnt develop until he hit 30. Lin is ahead of the game.
gunsnewing wrote:GustavBahler wrote:RoyBatty wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
What if we can't make it work numbers-wise? That's the question right. We hope for a sunny day where both Lin and Nash can be accommodated financially, but assuming them as maximizing economic actors, we have to assume it might not be possible .Who do we choose?
I understand its a possibility that Lin could walk. My problem is that some posters (not necessarily you) are treating Lin like he is the second coming of Rondo based on Linsanity. Lin still has to develop.What we need right now is a PG who can put Melo, Stat and everyone else, on the same page. If one of the greatest PGs ever is available for very little, and still playing at a high level, I think you have to go for it. I don't want to kick the can down the road any longer. To me penciling Lin is as the starter when his skills as PG aren't there yet is doing just that.
Most young players need to develop. Wben was the last time we developed one Patrick Ewing 30years ago? Whats wrong with letting a 23yr old develop? Nash didnt develop until he hit 30. Lin is ahead of the game.
Its about this roster. On a team with younger players who aren't in a win now mode, sure. This team was constructed to win now, not wait for a starting PG to develop. Thats why all the cap space was cleared out and those big contracts were signed.
Its a guess how healthy the big three can stay and for how long. I don't see them being a force after a couple of seasons. Too much competition out there. As for Nash, he was one of the best PGs in the league before he joined the Suns. He became arguably the best for a few years after that.
GustavBahler wrote:gunsnewing wrote:GustavBahler wrote:RoyBatty wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
What if we can't make it work numbers-wise? That's the question right. We hope for a sunny day where both Lin and Nash can be accommodated financially, but assuming them as maximizing economic actors, we have to assume it might not be possible .Who do we choose?
I understand its a possibility that Lin could walk. My problem is that some posters (not necessarily you) are treating Lin like he is the second coming of Rondo based on Linsanity. Lin still has to develop.What we need right now is a PG who can put Melo, Stat and everyone else, on the same page. If one of the greatest PGs ever is available for very little, and still playing at a high level, I think you have to go for it. I don't want to kick the can down the road any longer. To me penciling Lin is as the starter when his skills as PG aren't there yet is doing just that.
Most young players need to develop. Wben was the last time we developed one Patrick Ewing 30years ago? Whats wrong with letting a 23yr old develop? Nash didnt develop until he hit 30. Lin is ahead of the game.
Its about this roster. On a team with younger players who aren't in a win now mode, sure. This team was constructed to win now, not wait for a starting PG to develop. Thats why all the cap space was cleared out and those big contracts were signed.
Its a guess how healthy the big three can stay and for how long. I don't see them being a force after a couple of seasons. Too much competition out there. As for Nash, he was one of the best PGs in the league before he joined the Suns. He became arguably the best for a few years after that.
I'd rather do a genuine rebuild but I definitely don't want the team to be stuck somewhere in between rebuilding and winning now. If we're going to try to win now, as might as well get the players who will maximize our production at each position over the next 1 to 2 seasons.
I think this is a fair assessment:
Nash: played like a all-star to superstar last year. His game will likely deteriorate a little each year but is unlikely to fall down rapidly.
Lin: played well for a small sample of games; is currently recovering from a substantial knee injury and surgery.
No one has a crystal ball but I think we're more likely to maximize our PG production over the next 1 to 2 seasons by going with Nash.
gunsnewing wrote:Celtics were in win now mode when they added KG & Allen to Pierce and won a title with a rookie pg who was far from ready for the rigors of being an nba pg physically. Lin will bd in his 3rd year and more physically ready
They were in a position where they could afford to build both for the present and future. If they'd given up every asset and future first round picks for KG or Ray Allen, they would not have had that luxury. Nevertheless, based on reports, they looked to trade Rondo many times but never got what they were looking for.
gunsnewing wrote:Why because Lin had a minicus tear? There is a 40-60% tyson chandler and melo have season ending injuries. And 85% for Amare. I rather deal with a Lin injury because he will come back from it then a Nash career ending injury and then still play him and hav it count against the cap for 5yrs
So when calculating who is the better gamble, you would give zero weight to Lin's injury? I know people despise the concept of sample size here but you're giving way too much weight to the sample of about one-third of one season that we have from Lin. People are making statistically naive mistakes because they are attached to Lin.
Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Why because Lin had a minicus tear? There is a 40-60% tyson chandler and melo have season ending injuries. And 85% for Amare. I rather deal with a Lin injury because he will come back from it then a Nash career ending injury and then still play him and hav it count against the cap for 5yrs
So when calculating who is the better gamble, you would give zero weight to Lin's injury? I know people despise the concept of sample size here but you're giving way too much weight to the sample of about one-third of one season that we have from Lin. People are making statistically naive mistakes because they are attached to Lin.
Im not sure but when you figure out the exact scientific calculation of the percentage of chance of which one goes down let me know. All I can do is guess right now. My money is on 40yr old nash who is do for an acl tear or forced to retire with a bad back
gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Why because Lin had a minicus tear? There is a 40-60% tyson chandler and melo have season ending injuries. And 85% for Amare. I rather deal with a Lin injury because he will come back from it then a Nash career ending injury and then still play him and hav it count against the cap for 5yrs
So when calculating who is the better gamble, you would give zero weight to Lin's injury? I know people despise the concept of sample size here but you're giving way too much weight to the sample of about one-third of one season that we have from Lin. People are making statistically naive mistakes because they are attached to Lin.
Im not sure but when you figure out the exact scientific calculation of the percentage of chance of which one goes down let me know. All I can do is guess right now. My money is on 40yr old nash who is do for an acl tear or forced to retire with a bad back
Healthy 39 year old or young player coming off significant knee injury? Odds are a little higher that the healthy 39 year old gets injured but the difference is not huge enough to compensate for the fact that Nash is still playing like a hall-of-famer and we don't even have enough data to really judge Lin by.
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:gunsnewing wrote:GustavBahler wrote:RoyBatty wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
What if we can't make it work numbers-wise? That's the question right. We hope for a sunny day where both Lin and Nash can be accommodated financially, but assuming them as maximizing economic actors, we have to assume it might not be possible .Who do we choose?
I understand its a possibility that Lin could walk. My problem is that some posters (not necessarily you) are treating Lin like he is the second coming of Rondo based on Linsanity. Lin still has to develop.What we need right now is a PG who can put Melo, Stat and everyone else, on the same page. If one of the greatest PGs ever is available for very little, and still playing at a high level, I think you have to go for it. I don't want to kick the can down the road any longer. To me penciling Lin is as the starter when his skills as PG aren't there yet is doing just that.
Most young players need to develop. Wben was the last time we developed one Patrick Ewing 30years ago? Whats wrong with letting a 23yr old develop? Nash didnt develop until he hit 30. Lin is ahead of the game.
Its about this roster. On a team with younger players who aren't in a win now mode, sure. This team was constructed to win now, not wait for a starting PG to develop. Thats why all the cap space was cleared out and those big contracts were signed.
Its a guess how healthy the big three can stay and for how long. I don't see them being a force after a couple of seasons. Too much competition out there. As for Nash, he was one of the best PGs in the league before he joined the Suns. He became arguably the best for a few years after that.
I'd rather do a genuine rebuild but I definitely don't want the team to be stuck somewhere in between rebuilding and winning now. If we're going to try to win now, as might as well get the players who will maximize our production at each position over the next 1 to 2 seasons.I think this is a fair assessment:
Nash: played like a all-star to superstar last year. His game will likely deteriorate a little each year but is unlikely to fall down rapidly.
Lin: played well for a small sample of games; is currently recovering from a substantial knee injury and surgery.No one has a crystal ball but I think we're more likely to maximize our PG production over the next 1 to 2 seasons by going with Nash.
Well put. I don't see us getting closer to beating the Bulls or the Heat after a couple of seasons for a variety or reasons. Like I said, very few veteran players I would consider giving Lin up for. Its just that the jump in production and leadership Nash would bring to the Knicks would be too much to pass up IMO.
GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:gunsnewing wrote:GustavBahler wrote:RoyBatty wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You guys are really fixated on Nash's age. Its not like we're talking about Nash being a long term solution. Saying that he's old over and over again won't change the fact that he is still one of the best PG's in the league, old or not.the fixation is Nash vs Lin becaue you dont get both. So your picking 39yo over a 22 yo. Bad callPossibly giving the MLE to a guy still averaging almost 11 assists per game is not starphuching. Only Rondo has more assists and it takes him 5 more minutes per game to do it. Steve Francis was a starphuch, Nash isn't. He is still one of the best floor generals in the league.
Starphuch should apply to players who are getting paid more than they're worth, based on past success, to fill the seats, but I'll leave that up to Nalod.
Nash is a bargain if he were to accept the MLE. Probably won't but you never know.
You offer Nash the MLE and offer to sign Lin for less. Lin has a chance to learn from one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game and if he learns enough he takes over for Nash eventually. I don't consider it a given that he is the future and right now in the present Nash is a much better PG for the roster we have.
What if we can't make it work numbers-wise? That's the question right. We hope for a sunny day where both Lin and Nash can be accommodated financially, but assuming them as maximizing economic actors, we have to assume it might not be possible .Who do we choose?
I understand its a possibility that Lin could walk. My problem is that some posters (not necessarily you) are treating Lin like he is the second coming of Rondo based on Linsanity. Lin still has to develop.What we need right now is a PG who can put Melo, Stat and everyone else, on the same page. If one of the greatest PGs ever is available for very little, and still playing at a high level, I think you have to go for it. I don't want to kick the can down the road any longer. To me penciling Lin is as the starter when his skills as PG aren't there yet is doing just that.
Most young players need to develop. Wben was the last time we developed one Patrick Ewing 30years ago? Whats wrong with letting a 23yr old develop? Nash didnt develop until he hit 30. Lin is ahead of the game.
Its about this roster. On a team with younger players who aren't in a win now mode, sure. This team was constructed to win now, not wait for a starting PG to develop. Thats why all the cap space was cleared out and those big contracts were signed.
Its a guess how healthy the big three can stay and for how long. I don't see them being a force after a couple of seasons. Too much competition out there. As for Nash, he was one of the best PGs in the league before he joined the Suns. He became arguably the best for a few years after that.
I'd rather do a genuine rebuild but I definitely don't want the team to be stuck somewhere in between rebuilding and winning now. If we're going to try to win now, as might as well get the players who will maximize our production at each position over the next 1 to 2 seasons.I think this is a fair assessment:
Nash: played like a all-star to superstar last year. His game will likely deteriorate a little each year but is unlikely to fall down rapidly.
Lin: played well for a small sample of games; is currently recovering from a substantial knee injury and surgery.No one has a crystal ball but I think we're more likely to maximize our PG production over the next 1 to 2 seasons by going with Nash.
Well put. I don't see us getting closer to beating the Bulls or the Heat after a couple of seasons for a variety or reasons. Like I said, very few veteran players I would consider giving Lin up for. Its just that the jump in production and leadership Nash would bring to the Knicks would be too much to pass up IMO.
I'd put it this way: we're so far from the elite teams now that we'd need to go for a home run if we want to contend next year. What are the odds that we get hall-of-fame like PG productivity from Lin next year? Probably less than 1%. From Nash? Maybe 30%.
yellowboy90 wrote:I think people are overreacting to one game(Lin Vs Heat) and the coaches lack of adjustments during that game. A young player getting nervous it happens. You never know what next year will bring. If the front office is smart they can get good players to surround Lin, Shumpert, Melo, STAt, Chandler, and etc. I guess the key is Smart.
And from all the reports Lin was already playing on damaged secretariat knees at that point in the season
yellowboy90 wrote:I think people are overreacting to one game(Lin Vs Heat) and the coaches lack of adjustments during that game. A young player getting nervous it happens. You never know what next year will bring. If the front office is smart they can get good players to surround Lin, Shumpert, Melo, STAt, Chandler, and etc. I guess the key is Smart.Very good point. Lin had one bad game this season and it was against the heat. Lin was probably exhausted since he was playing 40 minutes per night for a few weeks and he had no backup og really at that time.
IrishKnickFan wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:I think people are overreacting to one game(Lin Vs Heat) and the coaches lack of adjustments during that game. A young player getting nervous it happens. You never know what next year will bring. If the front office is smart they can get good players to surround Lin, Shumpert, Melo, STAt, Chandler, and etc. I guess the key is Smart.Very good point. Lin had one bad game this season and it was against the heat. Lin was probably exhausted since he was playing 40 minutes per night for a few weeks and he had no backup og really at that time.
Exhaustion was not the issue. He could not handle the trap and MDA did not help him sticking the THE SYSTEM
yellowboy90 wrote:I think people are overreacting to one game(Lin Vs Heat) and the coaches lack of adjustments during that game. A young player getting nervous it happens. You never know what next year will bring. If the front office is smart they can get good players to surround Lin, Shumpert, Melo, STAt, Chandler, and etc. I guess the key is Smart.
I don't understand it either. Lin outplayed Kobe once but I don't believe that is proof that Lin is better than Kobe. One bad game Lin had with Miami doesn't really tell me a lot. Yes, Miami is very good but remember, even the Lakers and Mavericks are very good teams also. Not to mention that every player will have bad games. Lebron and Jordan, no matter how good they are had some bad games.