Knicks · Just a Thought...Is Harrellson the ideal PF of the Future? (page 1)

He's a stretch-4 and defends and rebounds well. His lack of athletism is his major weakness, but he's a late bloomer and definitely has the tools to be a real solid role player. I see him developing similar to Lee, where he's a late pick that adds something new to his game every year. He doesn't have Lee's physical abilities, and will never be a 20-10 player, but is tougher on defense and well ahead of him in the shooting department. He could eventually become a 40% 3-point shooter and average 10-12 points and 8-10 rebs per game. Meanwhile, if Shumpert can eventually develop into an Andre Igoudala-type, we could have a great, balanced lineup with Chandler, Jorts, Melo, Shump, and Lin. I see plenty of size, scoring, defense, and overall balance. Key would be having someone in the lineup that can really stretch the offense, and Jorts is the hope for that at the PF position. It's rare to have a player who has the combination of shooting and size to mix it up, and he has that.

i don't think he is a power forward, he is slow feet, bad athleticism, and doesn't have the ability to defend majority of power forwards in the league.
Can he be one in the future? I don't know, with his worth ethic, its possible.

But it is also possible for TD, JR Smith, and Iman Shumpert to be PG's and good facilitators one day too.
Chances are however, unlikely.

Just because Jort's can hit a 3point shot, make him a stretch 4, he is in the mold of a poor man's younger Mehmet Okur in Detroit.
While he was teamed up with Rasheed Wallace, that had length, range, post moves, good defense, and good shot blocking to compliment each other as well.
They also had the right players to run that system, with Ben Wallace, Prince, RIP, and Billups that complimented each other and spreaded out the floor.

I would like to retain Jorts but he has the climb the ladder, one step at time.
He is closer to a 3rd string center right now than a 2nd, without the ability to block shots, and be a good help defender.
He is very strong, has developed some post moves, and has good man to man defense.
I do not think he compliments Tyson Chandler at PF and works better with Amare on the offensive end.
But they are both horrible together defensively, as Jorts would spread the court offensively, but cannot look to help Amare as a weak link, or any other player.
Until he can improve his game, which I think he is capable of, he is a closer to a 3rd string center to the 2nd center, unless we have a player like KG to cover for Jorts.

It depends on the teams players, the coaching philosophy, our match ups and our lineups to actually determine.
We are looking to acquire a few other pieces, so depending on the acquisitions, things can change with his abilities to acquire more skills and change his body.
He went from being 300+ pounds and unable to run up the court, back n forth consistently, to being a terrific athlete given his circumstances to become a NBA PRO.

Just think about him defending some players like, they will eat him up, and will require help way too often.

Blake Griffen
Lebron James at PF, which they do at times....
Bass
KG
Dirk
Durant
Ibaka
Ryan Anderson
Aldridge
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan
Boris Diaw
Bosh
Kevin Love
Mahimi
Brandon Wright
Gooden
Ilyasova
David Lee
Nene
Faried

players he might have a better time defender, given his strength, but will probably have to give them the shot.
Boozer
David West
Ok4
Zbo

I see him defending players like backup Centers better that are 2nd/3rd string and certain starting centers much better

Kendrick Perkins
Omar Osik
Greg Stimensa
Big Baby
Jefferson
Hiddayhi

majority of the PF's would eat him up, or at least have the shot or penetration over him if he tried to defend their shot, given his lack of foot speed.
And when he stands at the 3point line, even if his man defended him, he currently doesn't even have the ability to blow pass him, and take it to the lane, consistently.
I hope this is something he can work on, many people here mislead him to be a stretch 4, because we want him to be one, without thinking he has the ability to defend the position.

Ideal backup pf/c yes

Like some centers like

Noah
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
KG

players that have good length, and athleticism, that can cover for him, with some offensive game with all around skills, would suit Jorts at PF,

but

I just don't think it would work with Tyson Chandler.

He is definitely a poor man's David Lee but I think what he did in Kentucky is a good sign about his work ethic and potential.

ATrain wrote:He is definitely a poor man's David Lee but I think what he did in Kentucky is a good sign about his work ethic and potential.

they both have great work ethic, but their games are totally different.
David Lee came in the league as a hustle/energy player and rebounder with timing, and leaping ability.

He is ambidextrous, with some post up game, and can penetrate.
He developed his handle, passing skills, shot, and ability to finish well over time.
Dantoni, playing him as a Point/Forward Point/Center, really helped developed Lee's game and skills.

Can we trade Amare for David Lee my favorite Knick during the Dismal Years

I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

Agree. His post D is solid, he is not allergic to blocking shots, he has active hands on d - will sometimes just take the ball away down low. On offemse he is, by a wide margin, our 2nd best post player(Melo is #1), and he could get better. The fact that he has a very nice touch is gravy. He is the definition of our ideal PF.

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

he was 300pds, just 3 years ago, have you actually watched his footwork and lack of speed?
his body build and frame has trimmed down a lot already but it is amazing that he is playing on a pro level.
Do you notice how hard he runs back on defense on a fast break, just to keep up on defense, so his man doesn't beat him.
But his first step or lack of quickness is evident when you watch him play, on offense and on defense.

He is big boy, strong, and doesn't get moved easily, but simply put, he isn't very mobile.
don't look at the stats he produced and suggest he can play PF because of it.

Can he work out more, do some more foot work drills, coordination, work on speed/quickness, YES, but if he loses some of the weight, sure.
Kevin Love came in training camp this year, totally different, with a different body structure, and improved his mobility.
But Kevin Love showed much more versatility and skills Jorts did during his couple of years here.
He should probably get in touch with Love and ask for some advice, what drills and routines he did.

After Jorts break out game on the Kings, I wondered the same thing, I knew Amare's game just didn't fit well with Tyson and Melo.
He has added some post up moves to his arsenal very late to the year but his mobility was just not there.

Jorts does have a pretty good power jump, he is just not very light on his feet.
I hope we can retain him but not sure if he wants to be a PF vs a Center.
Centers generally get paid better in the league, he just has to develop more game.
He has a great feel for the game and good instincts.
If you didn't see what I am talking about when you actually watched him play, you didn't pay attention to him or you just fail to see he isn't a PF, at least not yet.

But it just isn't fair to ask if he could be a PF of our future, when he isn't even one yet.
So its a jump before you can crawl...

ramtour420 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

Agree. His post D is solid, he is not allergic to blocking shots, he has active hands on d - will sometimes just take the ball away down low. On offemse he is, by a wide margin, our 2nd best post player(Melo is #1), and he could get better. The fact that he has a very nice touch is gravy. He is the definition of our ideal PF.

just cause you are 280, 6'9-10, have a nice shot, make you a stretch 4.
Best example I can give you, Gallo's first years here, when he has good court vision, can shoot, has heart, tries to play defense, has good size, etc etc,

make him a guard, or a big SG. He has no chance playing SG, or defending 90% of them in the league on a nightly basis.

RonRon wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

he was 300pds, just 3 years ago, have you actually watched his footwork and lack of speed?
his body build and frame has trimmed down a lot already but it is amazing that he is playing on a pro level.
Do you notice how hard he runs back on defense on a fast break, just to keep up on defense, so his man doesn't beat him.
But his first step or lack of quickness is evident when you watch him play, on offense and on defense.

He is big boy, strong, and doesn't get moved easily, but simply put, he isn't very mobile.
don't look at the stats he produced and suggest he can play PF because of it.

Can he work out more, do some more foot work drills, coordination, work on speed/quickness, YES, but if he loses some of the weight, sure.
Kevin Love came in training camp this year, totally different, with a different body structure, and improved his mobility.
But Kevin Love showed much more versatility and skills Jorts did during his couple of years here.
He should probably get in touch with Love and ask for some advice, what drills and routines he did.

After Jorts break out game on the Kings, I wondered the same thing, I knew Amare's game just didn't fit well with Tyson and Melo.
He has added some post up moves to his arsenal very late to the year but his mobility was just not there.

Jorts does have a pretty good power jump, he is just not very light on his feet.
I hope we can retain him but not sure if he wants to be a PF vs a Center.
Centers generally get paid better in the league, he just has to develop more game.
He has a great feel for the game and good instincts.
If you didn't see what I am talking about when you actually watched him play, you didn't pay attention to him or you just fail to see he isn't a PF, at least not yet.

But it just isn't fair to ask if he could be a PF of our future, when he isn't even one yet.
So its a jump before you can crawl...

Oakley was not light on his feet either. Good point about Kevin Love tho

ramtour420 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

Agree. His post D is solid, he is not allergic to blocking shots, he has active hands on d - will sometimes just take the ball away down low. On offemse he is, by a wide margin, our 2nd best post player(Melo is #1), and he could get better. The fact that he has a very nice touch is gravy. He is the definition of our ideal PF.

I think his defense was very good this year. I don't buy him being too slow of foot. And the Kevin Love comparison made below is spot on. Clearly he is not to be compared as an overall players, but how he has improved his conditioning and the style in which he plays. Look at this efficiencies from his rookie year in comparison to David Lee's. They were very similar. He has the tools to be a very good role player in the fashion of a rugged, stretch-4 in the starting lineup.

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

YES! I was telling mad people about his defensive positioning. He follows his man and the ball (as preached by Walt) and always seems to get involved in the play. He has instincts for rebounding and plays the pick and roll very well. Overall I think he would be great second string. Let him get his confidence up and give him the minutes. And I do think Chandler and Jorts compliment each other well. I would like to see more sets with those 2 involved.

Most important aspect of his game that make him useful: His touch around the basket on the offensive end. He hits hook shots that Chandler and STAT can only dream about. If he could only get the uff off his feet more and not got swatted by guys with long frames it would be even more of an asset.

Good thread.

If Jorts gets rid of the tire around his waist, improves his conditioning and stamina, retains his defensive instincts and improves some more, gain some consistency on offense, sure he "can" be the ideal PF of the Future. As of right now this moment, he is pencilled in as the ideal backup PF of the Future.

ChuckBuck wrote:If Jorts gets rid of the tire around his waist, improves his conditioning and stamina, retains his defensive instincts and improves some more, gain some consistency on offense, sure he "can" be the ideal PF of the Future. As of right now this moment, he is pencilled in as the ideal backup PF of the Future.

+1

JohnStarksFan wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I think you guys are under selling his movement skills on D. Some players just know how to play and I think he is one of them. In an ideal world he would be quicker but Amar'e is quick and is terrible on D. What Joey's needs to do is come back 20-25 lbs lighter and improve his shot.

YES! I was telling mad people about his defensive positioning. He follows his man and the ball (as preached by Walt) and always seems to get involved in the play. He has instincts for rebounding and plays the pick and roll very well. Overall I think he would be great second string. Let him get his confidence up and give him the minutes. And I do think Chandler and Jorts compliment each other well. I would like to see more sets with those 2 involved.

Most important aspect of his game that make him useful: His touch around the basket on the offensive end. He hits hook shots that Chandler and STAT can only dream about. If he could only get the uff off his feet more and not got swatted by guys with long frames it would be even more of an asset.

Good thread.

If he was an inch or two taller, 250lbs instead of 280, long arms, springs in his feet...dam that would be the ideal PF! Shiet, I'm talking about Blake Griffin.

HE does not need to become a love or Anderson type. He just needs to hit the open 15-18 footer and the occasional three. I will wait until next year though and see if he commits to being more fit. That will say a lot.

this is similar to how many of people here said, "FIELDS AS OUR STARTING SG FOR OUR FUTURE"

I instantly replied back he isn't even a SG, cannot defend many SGs, can't hit shots, doesn't have guard skills, lacks speed/quickness on both ends, and he doesn't do anything well
as a guard but REBOUND.

now, a year later, how many people agree with me now, and how many thought he Fields was our SG of Future at the time....

My point is simple, JORTS IS NOT A PF YET, how can he be our starting PF of the future?
He doesn't have the ability to start at PF, he might be able to play certain matchups against the 2nd or 3rd sring, while matching up with the center positions much better.
Of course this could change and he could lose some pounds, gain some speed/quickness, better foot work, and add to his game in the summer.
I don't think Jorts can have sprint faster than Camby at his age right now, down the court, and Camby plays center...

yellowboy90 wrote:HE does not need to become a love or Anderson type. He just needs to hit the open 15-18 footer and the occasional three. I will wait until next year though and see if he commits to being more fit. That will say a lot.

just because he can shoot doesn't make him a PF. He has much more work to do than just that....
I would love to keep him, it might be possible, heck, I hope he is doing Kevin Love's diet and work out as we speak so he can play more PF/C.