Knicks · Was the Linsanity run REAL? (page 2)

Mray20 @ 6/5/2012 7:17 PM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
Mray20 wrote:Lin will be a good solid role player not a star, Dantoni's system inflates point guard production, Lin is not Steve Nash people need to relax, he has no left hand a very suspect jump shot , not a good 3 point shooter ,no defense and is a turnover machine because once he picks up the ball he doesn't make good passes especially when it happens in the paint. Dantoni let him do whatever he wanted to do which is why he put up some nice numbers but there is a reason he got cut 3 times people. I like him I want him on this team but I want him to play more under control and be a facilitator not have him drive out of control into the lane and turn the ball over and over and fall to the floor as he was doing especially when defenses figured him out.
I think you are being a little hard on teh guy. Nobody is saying he is steve nash buts its obvious the kid can really play. People talk about the turnovers way too much. Sure he has to limit turnovers but he was starting to improve on that as the season progressed. Also his defense improved a lot as the season progressed. Lin needs to keep improving but i have liked his talent ever since i saw him in the summer league 2010. Lin is not suppose to be our main start tahts melo's job and hopefully melo finally comes through next season

Maybe I am being a little too hard on him but I just want him to be a good point guard and run the offense not try to do too much, it seemed at times he was forcing the issue , this is Melo's team and if everyone is healthy,Lin plays his role they can be a legit contender.

IrishKnickFan @ 6/5/2012 7:20 PM
Mray20 wrote:
IrishKnickFan wrote:
Mray20 wrote:Lin will be a good solid role player not a star, Dantoni's system inflates point guard production, Lin is not Steve Nash people need to relax, he has no left hand a very suspect jump shot , not a good 3 point shooter ,no defense and is a turnover machine because once he picks up the ball he doesn't make good passes especially when it happens in the paint. Dantoni let him do whatever he wanted to do which is why he put up some nice numbers but there is a reason he got cut 3 times people. I like him I want him on this team but I want him to play more under control and be a facilitator not have him drive out of control into the lane and turn the ball over and over and fall to the floor as he was doing especially when defenses figured him out.
I think you are being a little hard on teh guy. Nobody is saying he is steve nash buts its obvious the kid can really play. People talk about the turnovers way too much. Sure he has to limit turnovers but he was starting to improve on that as the season progressed. Also his defense improved a lot as the season progressed. Lin needs to keep improving but i have liked his talent ever since i saw him in the summer league 2010. Lin is not suppose to be our main start tahts melo's job and hopefully melo finally comes through next season

Maybe I am being a little too hard on him but I just want him to be a good point guard and run the offense not try to do too much, it seemed at times he was forcing the issue , this is Melo's team and if everyone is healthy,Lin plays his role they can be a legit contender.

i dont think he does too much he i think he is a smart point gurad. His only issues was that he was basically a rookie and his health but i thought it was a great strat to his career
callmened @ 6/5/2012 7:43 PM
would you resign Lin for >$5 million? thats the big question. it doesnt seem like we;ll win the Birds Rights Case; so we wont have a lot of money to spare. Hes asking for the $5 mill mid level price...is he worth it? after 25 games?
Anji @ 6/5/2012 7:49 PM
callmened wrote:would you resign Lin for >$5 million? thats the big question. it doesnt seem like we;ll win the Birds Rights Case; so we wont have a lot of money to spare. Hes asking for the $5 mill mid level price...is he worth it? after 25 games?

I don't think you should be paying full price for 24 year old, third year "rookies"..........might be me though.
IrishKnickFan @ 6/5/2012 8:02 PM
The problem is that if you let lin walk and nash signs somewheere else you are screwed just liek we were before linsanity happened
CrushAlot @ 6/5/2012 8:58 PM
IrishKnickFan wrote:The problem is that if you let lin walk and nash signs somewheere else you are screwed just liek we were before linsanity happened
I think if Nash takes a contract similar to what the Knicks would be able to offer him, he goes someplace where he believes he will win a championship in the next two years. I think he would have better options than the Knicks.
IrishKnickFan @ 6/5/2012 9:04 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
IrishKnickFan wrote:The problem is that if you let lin walk and nash signs somewheere else you are screwed just liek we were before linsanity happened
I think if Nash takes a contract similar to what the Knicks would be able to offer him, he goes someplace where he believes he will win a championship in the next two years. I think he would have better options than the Knicks.
Thats whta i think too so lin coming back is the next best option. He is already familiar with this team and i feel he will continue to get better. I mean we have all that money tied up in 3 guys and we have 1 playoff win so its tough to find much options
Mray20 @ 6/5/2012 9:13 PM
Dolan loves to overpay and especially since he probably sees dollar signs in Linsanity , my fear is this turns into yet another bad contract if he doesn't pan out, 25 games or so is not a big enough sample for a multi year contract at 5 mil plus a year
IrishKnickFan @ 6/5/2012 9:17 PM
Mray20 wrote:Dolan loves to overpay and especially since he probably sees dollar signs in Linsanity , my fear is this turns into yet another bad contract if he doesn't pan out, 25 games or so is not a big enough sample for a multi year contract at 5 mil plus a year
i mean right now wer are suffering with amare's and melo's contract so we dont have much flexibility anyway. I mean lin pretty much saved our season. It sucks that he got hurt but unless we could get nash which we wont he is probably the best option at pg
GodSaveTheKnicks @ 6/5/2012 9:53 PM
No. It was all just a dream.
ramtour420 @ 6/6/2012 1:52 AM
It was real and it was FABULOUS !!
CoolColJ @ 6/6/2012 1:53 AM
I'll leave this here
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...

Jeremy Lin Is No Fluke
By NATE SILVER

Even an average N.B.A. player can have a great game. Within the past two seasons, players including Jordan Crawford, Hedo Turkoglu and Goran Dragic have recorded a triple-double. The Milwaukee Bucks’ Brandon Jennings scored 55 points in a game in 2009, nearly quadrupling the 15 points per game he scored on average that season.

But what about four great games in a row — especially when they coincide with your first three N.B.A. starts?

The New York Knicks’ Jeremy Lin has scored at least 23 points in each of his last four games, including 38 on Friday night against the Lakers. He has also recorded at least seven assists in each game, and he has been efficient, shooting at least 53 percent from the field each time.

Just how common is something like this? I searched basketball-reference.com for other streaks that were in the same general ballpark: players who scored at least 20 points, had at least six assists and shot 50 percent over a period of four consecutive N.B.A. regular season games.

Since the 1985-86 season, 41 players have had such a streak in addition to Lin.

It is an extremely impressive list. All but seven of the players made at least one All-Star appearance in their careers, with about two-thirds of them selected to the All-Star team multiple times. The list includes nine Hall of Famers — and a number of other players who are sure to make it once they retire. The players on the list account for 17 of the last 28 M.V.P. awards.

see article for chart...

The first tier consists of 11 players that I call “All-Time Greats.” These are players who were either among the 50 Greatest Players in N.B.A. History, when the league announced that list in 1996, or who have won an M.V.P. award since then. It contains pretty much who you’d think — Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. It also includes Steve Nash, a player to whom some are comparing Lin.

The next tier consists of four “Franchise Players.” This includes players like Gary Payton, the former Seattle Supersonics point guard, who fall just short of immortality (or are too young to have achieved it yet), but who were probably good enough to lead a team to a championship.

In the third tier are the “All-Stars” — players who made the All-Star team about half the time during the peak of their careers, and who could win a championship if paired with a player of similar aptitude and a strong supporting cast. Two of these players, Chris Mullin and Joe Dumars, made the Hall of Fame, but most, like former Phoenix Suns point guard Kevin Johnson, fell just short of it.

Next up is the “Above Average” group — guys who had good overall careers and who might have made an All-Star team in their best season or two. Mark Jackson, the former Knicks point guard, is typical of this group.

Only 9 of the 41 players fall below this tier. Six of them, like the former Knick Steve Francis, fall into a group of average players.

Just three of them, meanwhile — Pooh Richardson, Jay Humphries and Lionel Simmons — were mediocre N.B.A. players even at their peak.

In other words, while it is possible that Lin will turn out to be the next Pooh Richardson, the odds are in favor of a more impressive outcome.

Basketball is much less luck-driven than a sport like baseball, especially for a point guard, who handles so many of the team’s possessions. A league-average point guard might be able to muster one streak like Lin’s over the course of his career. But it is more the hallmark of a player with at least borderline All-Star talent, if not more than that.

There are, however, two other factors pertinent to Jeremy Lin, one of which speaks favorably for him and the other less so.

The unfavorable factor is that absolutely nobody saw this coming. Lin was cut during the pre-season by the Golden State Warriors, and then again by the Houston Rockets, one of the more statistically savvy teams in the league. Lin had been undrafted out of college — that college was Harvard, by the way, where Lin had a G.P.A. of 3.1 and majored in economics.

While it must be acknowledged that talent evaluation is an imperfect science in sports — and that there may be some bias against an Asian-American from Harvard who does not fit the mold of a typical N.B.A. point guard — that is nevertheless a reason to expect some reversion to the mean. That doesn’t mean Lin is going to be the next Lionel Simmons, but it would weigh against a prediction that he will turn into a superstar.

On the other hand, these past four games aren’t just any four, picked out at random from a long career. They represent the first four times that Lin had ever played more than 24 minutes in an N.B.A. game and his first three career starts. In fact, the 89 points Lin scored in his first three starts is the most by an N.B.A. player since the league merged with the A.B.A. in 1976.

And Lin has scored his points in impressive fashion, slashing and driving to the basket and creating easy shots for himself. Were he just a streak shooter who had knocked down a bunch of 3-pointers, perhaps there would be more reason to be skeptical.

Lin has also received the endorsement of one of the players on the All-Time Greats list, Magic Johnson, who compared him to two of the others, John Stockton and Steve Nash, on ESPN’s telecast last night.

So perhaps the list of 41 players above is a roughly appropriate guide to Lin’s possible futures. That would imply that there was about a one-in-four chance that Lin really was going to be a superstar, and about a one-in-four chance that he was an average (or worse) player on an incredible hot streak. That would leave a 50 percent chance that he was somewhere in the middle — a clearly above-average player who would make several All-Star teams in his career.

It’s also worth watching to see whether Lin can extend the streak tonight against Minnesota. Only 17 of the 41 players had streaks that lasted for longer than four games, with many of the more marginal players dropping off the list.

And only five players had such a streak that lasted for six games or longer. Four of them are Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas and Dwyane Wade. The other was less illustrious: Lafayette “Fat” Lever.

Papabear @ 6/6/2012 2:01 AM
Papabear Says

I think that good defenders will tear him up and force trun overs.

ramtour420 @ 6/6/2012 2:07 AM
CoolColJ wrote:I'll leave this here
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...

Jeremy Lin Is No Fluke
By NATE SILVER

Even an average N.B.A. player can have a great game. Within the past two seasons, players including Jordan Crawford, Hedo Turkoglu and Goran Dragic have recorded a triple-double. The Milwaukee Bucks’ Brandon Jennings scored 55 points in a game in 2009, nearly quadrupling the 15 points per game he scored on average that season.

But what about four great games in a row — especially when they coincide with your first three N.B.A. starts?

The New York Knicks’ Jeremy Lin has scored at least 23 points in each of his last four games, including 38 on Friday night against the Lakers. He has also recorded at least seven assists in each game, and he has been efficient, shooting at least 53 percent from the field each time.

Just how common is something like this? I searched basketball-reference.com for other streaks that were in the same general ballpark: players who scored at least 20 points, had at least six assists and shot 50 percent over a period of four consecutive N.B.A. regular season games.

Since the 1985-86 season, 41 players have had such a streak in addition to Lin.

It is an extremely impressive list. All but seven of the players made at least one All-Star appearance in their careers, with about two-thirds of them selected to the All-Star team multiple times. The list includes nine Hall of Famers — and a number of other players who are sure to make it once they retire. The players on the list account for 17 of the last 28 M.V.P. awards.

see article for chart...

The first tier consists of 11 players that I call “All-Time Greats.” These are players who were either among the 50 Greatest Players in N.B.A. History, when the league announced that list in 1996, or who have won an M.V.P. award since then. It contains pretty much who you’d think — Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. It also includes Steve Nash, a player to whom some are comparing Lin.

The next tier consists of four “Franchise Players.” This includes players like Gary Payton, the former Seattle Supersonics point guard, who fall just short of immortality (or are too young to have achieved it yet), but who were probably good enough to lead a team to a championship.

In the third tier are the “All-Stars” — players who made the All-Star team about half the time during the peak of their careers, and who could win a championship if paired with a player of similar aptitude and a strong supporting cast. Two of these players, Chris Mullin and Joe Dumars, made the Hall of Fame, but most, like former Phoenix Suns point guard Kevin Johnson, fell just short of it.

Next up is the “Above Average” group — guys who had good overall careers and who might have made an All-Star team in their best season or two. Mark Jackson, the former Knicks point guard, is typical of this group.

Only 9 of the 41 players fall below this tier. Six of them, like the former Knick Steve Francis, fall into a group of average players.

Just three of them, meanwhile — Pooh Richardson, Jay Humphries and Lionel Simmons — were mediocre N.B.A. players even at their peak.

In other words, while it is possible that Lin will turn out to be the next Pooh Richardson, the odds are in favor of a more impressive outcome.

Basketball is much less luck-driven than a sport like baseball, especially for a point guard, who handles so many of the team’s possessions. A league-average point guard might be able to muster one streak like Lin’s over the course of his career. But it is more the hallmark of a player with at least borderline All-Star talent, if not more than that.

There are, however, two other factors pertinent to Jeremy Lin, one of which speaks favorably for him and the other less so.

The unfavorable factor is that absolutely nobody saw this coming. Lin was cut during the pre-season by the Golden State Warriors, and then again by the Houston Rockets, one of the more statistically savvy teams in the league. Lin had been undrafted out of college — that college was Harvard, by the way, where Lin had a G.P.A. of 3.1 and majored in economics.

While it must be acknowledged that talent evaluation is an imperfect science in sports — and that there may be some bias against an Asian-American from Harvard who does not fit the mold of a typical N.B.A. point guard — that is nevertheless a reason to expect some reversion to the mean. That doesn’t mean Lin is going to be the next Lionel Simmons, but it would weigh against a prediction that he will turn into a superstar.

On the other hand, these past four games aren’t just any four, picked out at random from a long career. They represent the first four times that Lin had ever played more than 24 minutes in an N.B.A. game and his first three career starts. In fact, the 89 points Lin scored in his first three starts is the most by an N.B.A. player since the league merged with the A.B.A. in 1976.

And Lin has scored his points in impressive fashion, slashing and driving to the basket and creating easy shots for himself. Were he just a streak shootersee who had knocked down a bunch of 3-pointers, perhaps there would be more reason to be skeptical.

Lin has also received the endorsement of one of the players on the All-Time Greats list, Magic Johnson, who compared him to two of the others, John Stockton and Steve Nash, on ESPN’s telecast last night.

So perhaps the list of 41 players above is a roughly appropriate guide to Lin’s possible futures. That would imply that there was about a one-in-four chance that Lin really was going to be a superstar, and about a one-in-four chance that he was an average (or worse) player on an incredible hot streak. That would leave a 50 percent chance that he was somewhere in the middle — a clearly above-average player who would make several All-Star teams in his career.

It’s also worth watching to see whether Lin can extend the streak tonight against Minnesota. Only 17 of the 41 players had streaks that lasted for longer than four games, with many of the more marginal players dropping off the list.

And only five players had such a streak that lasted for six games or longer. Four of them are Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas and Dwyane Wade. The other was less illustrious: Lafayette “Fat” Lever.

Wtf, Lin's GPA was only 3.1 ? How disappointing

loweyecue @ 6/6/2012 6:21 AM
Perspective helps - 3.1 GPA in Harvard should be worn like a badge of honor. It's better than 4.0 from about 70% of other colleges.

I always find it amusing people dismiss Lin as a 9 game fluke then proceed to establishe Woody as a possible HOF coach based on 18-6 :)

Whatever Lin's potential, I think it will not be maximized under Woody who doesn't really employ any offensive system. This will be compounded by the media and extremely overrated NY fans who will turn on him when he has a bad patch. I think he will get marginalized into a bench player under Woody. Under a different coach he may have blossomed.

CrushAlot @ 6/6/2012 7:00 AM
loweyecue wrote:Perspective helps - 3.1 GPA in Harvard should be worn like a badge of honor. It's better than 4.0 from about 70% of other colleges.

I always find it amusing people dismiss Lin as a 9 game fluke then proceed to establishe Woody as a possible HOF coach based on 18-6 :)

Whatever Lin's potential, I think it will not be maximized under Woody who doesn't really employ any offensive system. This will be compounded by the media and extremely overrated NY fans who will turn on him when he has a bad patch. I think he will get marginalized into a bench player under Woody. Under a different coach he may have blossomed.

I think Woodson and Lin were in similar situations this past season. The Knicks desperately needed a point guard to run their offense and when Lin finally got his chance it was amazing. I think it was a similar situation with the coaching position. The Knicks needed a new voice and apparently more of an authoritarian approach from that spot. Woodson stepped in and had a ton of success. Strike shortened seasons are weird but I think both guys were in the right place at the right time and got their chance.
Nalod @ 6/6/2012 7:04 AM
We saw in 25 games was serious potential.

If he never gets better is a 14 and 7 pg starter worth 5mil in the NBA?

His predraft raw athletic stats were impressive. Freaking linsanity showed the kid has the stones to play in the clutch, can play in the heat of NYC and has a winning ability.

I can't imagine why anyone thinks the kid is not worth 5mm?

39 year old free agents are just not a good idea for 10mm a year.

If lin had no holes in his game he'd be worth 15mm a year as a free agent.

Imagine the kind of work he could put in knowing he does not have to make the team?

SlimChin @ 6/6/2012 9:32 AM
Mray20 wrote:
IrishKnickFan wrote:
Mray20 wrote:Lin will be a good solid role player not a star, Dantoni's system inflates point guard production, Lin is not Steve Nash people need to relax, he has no left hand a very suspect jump shot , not a good 3 point shooter ,no defense and is a turnover machine because once he picks up the ball he doesn't make good passes especially when it happens in the paint. Dantoni let him do whatever he wanted to do which is why he put up some nice numbers but there is a reason he got cut 3 times people. I like him I want him on this team but I want him to play more under control and be a facilitator not have him drive out of control into the lane and turn the ball over and over and fall to the floor as he was doing especially when defenses figured him out.
I think you are being a little hard on teh guy. Nobody is saying he is steve nash buts its obvious the kid can really play. People talk about the turnovers way too much. Sure he has to limit turnovers but he was starting to improve on that as the season progressed. Also his defense improved a lot as the season progressed. Lin needs to keep improving but i have liked his talent ever since i saw him in the summer league 2010. Lin is not suppose to be our main start tahts melo's job and hopefully melo finally comes through next season

Maybe I am being a little too hard on him but I just want him to be a good point guard and run the offense not try to do too much, it seemed at times he was forcing the issue , this is Melo's team and if everyone is healthy,Lin plays his role they can be a legit contender.

Yeah this is Melo's team but he has to change his game to take his team deeper than the 1st rd of the playoffs. Melo-iso-ball doesn't take you very far.

I don't think anyone can know how good of a PG Lin will be—he's only played what 23 games so far? I will say he has A LOT of upside though.

ramtour420 @ 6/6/2012 11:53 AM
loweyecue wrote:Perspective helps - 3.1 GPA in Harvard should be worn like a badge of honor. It's better than 4.0 from about 70% of other colleges.

I always find it amusing people dismiss Lin as a 9 game fluke then proceed to establishe Woody as a possible HOF coach based on 18-6 :)

Whatever Lin's potential, I think it will not be maximized under Woody who doesn't really employ any offensive system. This will be compounded by the media and extremely overrated NY fans who will turn on him when he has a bad patch. I think he will get marginalized into a bench player under Woody. Under a different coach he may have blossomed.

I thought it was kinda funny. Sry if you didn't find it as such.

As per Woodson marginalizing Lin into less of a player its difficult to argue against. Except maybe that Lin played pretty good with him as a head coach. Then again, it was only a few games.

AnubisADL @ 6/6/2012 12:57 PM
D'Antoni runs a PG friendly offense. Think Raymond Felton.

At worse Lin is a decent backup. My biggest fear is he regresses back to his Golden State days.

IrishKnickFan @ 6/6/2012 2:31 PM
AnubisADL wrote:D'Antoni runs a PG friendly offense. Think Raymond Felton.

At worse Lin is a decent backup. My biggest fear is he regresses back to his Golden State days.

Didnit he do just as good under woodson. I mean he pretty much won those philly and pacer games for us. I mean i've noticed some judt dont like him for whatver reason but most people who know the game will tell you that yes he needs to improve but has a great upside
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