Knicks · Knicks Offensive Graph (page 1)

The chart identifies every offensive outcome for the Knicks that had occurred at least 100 times this season. This offensive outcome means both possession type and the specific player who ultimately used that possession.

This chart left out transition possessions and offensive rebounds, who’s frequency may have more to do with opportunity than deliberate design.

The radar graph shows two different pieces of information for each outcome – the points per possession that outcome netted the Knicks on average, and the total number of times it occurred this season. The orange line represents the points per possession, the blue represents the number of occurrences. (Each vertical segment of the graph represents 100 occurrences)

This chart is great for scouts, who can identify individual player's offensive ability, very much like the batting average for MLB.

It also gives a great overlook for a coach and identifies a team weaknesses and strengths.

First Lets look at Points Per 100 Possessions around the league:
http://hoopdata.com/teamoffstats.aspx

1. Spurs: 108.5
2. OKC: 107.1
3. Den: 106.5
17. Knicks: 101.4
29. Was: 95.6
30. CHA: 92.3

Knicks isolation PP100P
Melo: about 95
JR: less than 90
Stat: less than 80

Our most efficient isolation, and highest number of possessions, was with Melo (more than 500 times), and its efficiency only surpassed one team in the league: Bobcats.

Not only that, Melo isolation efficiency is not even ranked in the top 15 isolations in the league! Because Harden is a great 3P shooter, he had the highest isolation efficiency at > 1.10 ppp (better than Spurs).

Melo spot-up, Melo post-up, Melo PnR ball handler all have higher efficiency than Melo isolation. He is Knicks' best PnR ball handler--better than Lin! That said a lot about Melo as a passer!

Another interesting fact. Knicks had two of the top three most efficiency outcomes in the league:
1. Bynum cut
2. Tyson cut
3. Novak spot-up!
This shouldn’t come surprised at all if you remember Tyson topped FG% and Novak topped 3P% in the league.

Here are the rest of Offensive Graphs for the rest of NBA teams:
http://www.hickory-high.com/?p=4403

Find a player/team you are interested and see how affective they are at their offense!

Wow! What do you say to this... This confirms what some of us have been saying as to where our inefficiencies are.

Melo isolation efficiency is not even ranked in the top 15 isolations in the league!

Screw top 15. If I'm understanding those numbers right, his efficiency is below average. Call it hate but Melo doesn't do anything well other than take a lot of shots.

wow, that's an interesting way to chart the into. Nice find.

This is an excellent breakdown Muhaha. Sadly this is exactly what many of us were complaining about when it came to this teams offensive options. There's no comparison between the efficiency of this team last year with STAT, Felton, Gallo, etc. to this years team. We kind of knew there would be some issues due the amount of talent we gave up and the poor options we had to replace that talent. Still it was clear that this team played better when we went to more motion and ball movement and spread the floor. In the playoffs it gets even worse cuz you're facing tough defenses.

All is not lost since we'll be getting Lin back and with a better plan from Woody we can make better use of the high % options the team has. I've said all year that the offense should not focus on Melo ISO 1st but rather run thru motion and ball movement plays and if that doesn't work then go to Melo in the post or ISO. Pushing the ball is important to give the team maximum time on the shot clock to work the offense. When Lin went down that went away.

Solace wrote:Wow! What do you say to this... This confirms what some of us have been saying as to where our inefficiencies are.

Knicks ranked fifth in defensive efficiecy in NBA but they were 14th in win/loss. That right there tells you a lot about our inefficiecy in offense. 17th in offensive efficiency will not get you far into the playoffs. If only Woodson can figure out how to be more affective, we can become a force next year.

Here is what he needs to do:
- Set screens and utilize Tyson and Stat cut % (cut to the basket and lob or bounce).
- Set up plays and make Novak as one of the top options.
- Utilize Stat ability as PnR screener.
- Make plays for Melo as a PnR passer and Tyson & Stat on receiving end.
- Set up JR and Novak for open shots (screens or PG drive and dish)

Whatever Woodson does, just stay away from isolations!

muhaha wrote:

Solace wrote:Wow! What do you say to this... This confirms what some of us have been saying as to where our inefficiencies are.

Knicks ranked fifth in defensive efficiecy in NBA but they were 14th in win/loss. That right there tells you a lot about our inefficiecy in offense. 17th in offensive efficiency will not get you far into the playoffs. If only Woodson can figure out how to be more affective, we can become a force next year.

Here is what he needs to do:
- Set screens and utilize Tyson and Stat cut % (cut to the basket and lob or bounce).
- Set up plays and make Novak as one of the top options.
- Utilize Stat ability as PnR screener.
- Make plays for Melo as a PnR passer and Tyson & Stat on receiving end.
- Set up JR and Novak for open shots (screens or PG drive and dish)

Whatever Woodson does, just stay away from isolations!

If this doesn't clearly show that this team needs to be a ball movement, moving without the ball, pick and roll team than I don't know what does. Come on JLin! Usher in a new era.

JohnStarksFan wrote:

muhaha wrote:

Solace wrote:Wow! What do you say to this... This confirms what some of us have been saying as to where our inefficiencies are.

Knicks ranked fifth in defensive efficiecy in NBA but they were 14th in win/loss. That right there tells you a lot about our inefficiecy in offense. 17th in offensive efficiency will not get you far into the playoffs. If only Woodson can figure out how to be more affective, we can become a force next year.

Here is what he needs to do:
- Set screens and utilize Tyson and Stat cut % (cut to the basket and lob or bounce).
- Set up plays and make Novak as one of the top options.
- Utilize Stat ability as PnR screener.
- Make plays for Melo as a PnR passer and Tyson & Stat on receiving end.
- Set up JR and Novak for open shots (screens or PG drive and dish)

Whatever Woodson does, just stay away from isolations!

If this doesn't clearly show that this team needs to be a ball movement, moving without the ball, pick and roll team than I don't know what does. Come on JLin! Usher in a new era.

Now perhaps others understand why I was a big proponent of MDA's offense. Sure some thought it was a gimmick, but when you look at this chart you can see that his offense focused on the higher % plays and that's why his offense was top 1 or 2 in the league in PHX every year and last year we were 5 in offensive efficiency in the league with STAT, Felton, Gallo etc. IT's just a much more efficient way to play. If you marry that offense with this D then you'll have a deep playoff team guaranteed. That's what I think we started to see during Linsanity!!! Woody has to realize that this was the best mix of offense and defense for this team.

Tbe offense will be more efficient by adding lin for a full season alone. 3/4 of last seazon was played witbout a capable pg, i.jured amare of course the offense is goin to be inefficient. Melo cant do it all

Melo has a better smile than most Iso players. It helps ratings.

"Cuz when you smile the whole world smiles with you!"

This is definately a great find. That is one sexy graph and it proves what a lot of people have been saying- ISO cannot be the teams main threat in the long run, throughout the game. Sure it can be mixed in somewhere in there, but not at the expense of basketball plays where more than 1 person is involved. Cuts to the basket, PnR -those are a must to have in your bag of tricks.

first of all - great find...a little hard to understand at first but its pretty cool

however, I'll play devils advocate for a second (which i love to do)...i must warn you that im a melo fan and hes my favorite player...while i realize hes not as elite as i THOUGHT, i think he gets his unfair share of the blame for the knick's problems...he is what he is...an isolation player who can score on anyone. pretty much one dimensional but hes still a great player..and OUR player (that knicks fans should embrace)

now for my point...the problem i have with stats and "outcomes" and charts like these are: it doesnt take into consideration the intangible aspects that cant be measured. for example, does that chart take into consideration: opponent foul trouble, double teaming melo in the iso to force him to pass (and then finding a wide open novak), free throw attempts, foul bonus against the other team..what are we to conclude from that graph? that we should have tyson cut more and novak shoot more?? (that requires a PG right?..one that we didnt have most of the yr)

im not sayin that isolating melo is the answer...but i can list at least 10 other problems with the knicks besides that....starting with STAT...lastly, in his defense one can "blame" woody for calling these iso plays since they had no PG and no other creator...keep in mind that this "offense" carried us thru april where he was named player of the month...and this same iso is responsible for LBJ singlehandedly destroying the celtics in game 6

i agree with what muahaha said (btw how do u reply to a replyer..theres like a box within a box)

the problem with MDA was never his offense...hes a genius on THAT end...i just hated the lack of defense

im a big fan of ball movement BUT also a fan of getting it to your star players...i dont think it should be a "democracy"...the key is getting the ball to star players after motion has been created...tyson shouldnt touch the ball unless its for a dunk...earlier in the yr (when MDA realized that TD wasnt a pg), the knix were running the ol' wisconsin swing play...(its hard to explain - google it) but it involved swinging the ball over the top and then finding a low post player on the diaganoal cut...fields and tyson feasted on this play...and this is how he got melo to iso...the problem is its 2 predictable and teams carved it up ...but thats a good example of having a motion offense that ENDS with the ball in your star player at the low blocks

nixluva wrote:Now perhaps others understand why I was a big proponent of MDA's offense. Sure some thought it was a gimmick, but when you look at this chart you can see that his offense focused on the higher % plays and that's why his offense was top 1 or 2 in the league in PHX every year and last year we were 5 in offensive efficiency in the league with STAT, Felton, Gallo etc. IT's just a much more efficient way to play. If you marry that offense with this D then you'll have a deep playoff team guaranteed. That's what I think we started to see during Linsanity!!! Woody has to realize that this was the best mix of offense and defense for this team.

Spurs had the most efficient offense in NBA. Basically they run the same offensive as MDA, but Popovich perfected this system with 3 key factors:
1. a great PG
2. PnR screener in Duncan
3. 3P shooters in 2, 3 and 4

I'm not sure who came up with this system first. I know Spurs used this system for awhile now. It's unfortunate I don't think it will work if Stat and Tyson are on the floor at the same time. Because neither of them is a 3P threat.

Spur offensive setup

MDA Offensive setup

callmened wrote:first of all - great find...a little hard to understand at first but its pretty cool

however, I'll play devils advocate for a second (which i love to do)...i must warn you that im a melo fan and hes my favorite player...while i realize hes not as elite as i THOUGHT, i think he gets his unfair share of the blame for the knick's problems...he is what he is...an isolation player who can score on anyone. pretty much one dimensional but hes still a great player..and OUR player (that knicks fans should embrace)

now for my point...the problem i have with stats and "outcomes" and charts like these are: it doesnt take into consideration the intangible aspects that cant be measured. for example, does that chart take into consideration: opponent foul trouble, double teaming melo in the iso to force him to pass (and then finding a wide open novak), free throw attempts, foul bonus against the other team..what are we to conclude from that graph? that we should have tyson cut more and novak shoot more?? (that requires a PG right?..one that we didnt have most of the yr)

im not sayin that isolating melo is the answer...but i can list at least 10 other problems with the knicks besides that....starting with STAT...lastly, in his defense one can "blame" woody for calling these iso plays since they had no PG and no other creator...keep in mind that this "offense" carried us thru april where he was named player of the month...and this same iso is responsible for LBJ singlehandedly destroying the celtics in game 6

There is no doubt Melo is our best offensive weapon. But Knicks can become so much better if he and the coaching staff can 'trim down' isolations. This graph only reaffirmed the fact Melo's isolation is the least efficient way for him to score. He is an underrated passer. He seldom dished out on drives, and it only reflected on his mistrust in his teammates. And when a major ball handler doesnt trust his teammates, they will only stand around and watch. A mixture of plays are fine.

Isolation is very detrimental to team ball if it becomes the main entree to our offensive meal!

Here is more on isolations by Elton Brand:

Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire might be the easy culprits for the Knicks’ woes so far this season, but to dig a little deeper, the biggest problem with New York might be the play calling.

According to ESPN.com’s True Hoop page, 15.8 of the Knicks’ offensive plays this year have been isolation sets, by far the most in the NBA. However, the Knicks are scoring on just two-third of the isolation plays and shoot just 30.3 percent when such a play call is made.

Needless to say, it’s not much of surprise which player is going to get the ball, either. The Knicks average 80.2 shots per game with Anthony and Stoudemire squeezing off 35 of those.

Meanwhile, the Sixers rarely run isolation plays, which is exactly the way they like it. According to Elton Brand, the more different players get to handle the ball, the better the team’s defense is…

Huh?

“When you iso a lot you don’t have that shared responsibility on defense. It’s kind of human nature – if you work hard to get a guy a layup, he’ll want to return the favor and play harder on defense,” Brand explained.

Brand, a two-time All-Star, was the focal point of the offense when he played for the Clippers and averaged up to 18 shots per game one season. Often, the offense filtered through him on the post, which Brand says didn’t look like too much fun for his teammates. Truth be told, he prefers the Sixers’ style of offense.

This season the Sixers had seven different players lead the team in scoring in the first 10 games.

“There is less standing around, you feel a part of the team, you feel the movement, you feel good,” Brand said. “If one guy is shooting all the shots, unless it’s ingrained in the team’s role, I think defensively it hurts.”

Another reason why isolation plays may have fallen out of favor around the league is because the defenses and scouting has improved. In fact, during last week’s game against Washington, Evan Turner said the Sixers were so familiar with the other team’s plays that they tried to beat their man to the spot when the play was called.

“Defenses have become so much more sophisticated. We think we’re at our best if the ball moves side to side because if the ball gets stuck on one side of the floor these NBA teams just load up,” coach Doug Collins said. “Unless you’re something spectacular, you’re going to take a contested jump shot or you’re going to be playing one on two or even one on three if they go boxes-and-elbows or something like that.”

Of course another reason for teams struggling with isolation plays could be the lockout. Brand wondered if some go-to players were slow to get their legs going with so maybe back-to-backs and quick turnarounds.

If one thing is for sure, says Collins, the defense around the league has been solid.

“I don’t know if the lockout had any effect on guys and conditioning. I know the defenses this year have been pretty consistent,” Collins said. “I think every night we play teams and the defenses are ahead of the offenses in a lot of ways and that might be because we can’t practice.”

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/sixers-tal...

When you think of the Knicks offensive impotence under Woody, MUHAHA is what usually comes to mind. Great chart by the way. It shows what I have been saying since Woodson took over. We will completely ignore more efficient scoring options in favor of dumping the ball to Melo. Now people like Holfresh think this is the way to go. Then after losing games the excuse is " Melo can't do it alone". - you can't beat that combination.

Between Tyson, Novak, Amare and Lin we have very efficient scoring options and yet our wooden headed coach will use all of those combined less times than ISO plays for Melo. But he is 18-6 so there!!!!!!

Except that lin melo amare tyson & shump only played 7 games together under woodson and were 6-1. The rest of the games were played with a hobbled Davis, fields, jeffries and an erratic JR. And Novak who couldnt get a shot off against real defensive teams like miami, chicago & boston

Ill give woody a pass because he didnt have a real point guard or playmaker. So you jus throw it to your best player go from there.

gunsnewing wrote:Except that lin melo amare tyson & shump only played 7 games together under woodson and were 6-1. The rest of the games were played with a hobbled Davis, fields, jeffries and an erratic JR. And Novak who couldnt get a shot off against real defensive teams like miami, chicago & boston

Novak was completely healthy throughout and Woodson never called one play for him or instructed his players to set a screen for him. I am not willing to believe having healthy players will mean a change in approach from Woody. I just don't see it happening.

Um...did u see the bsoton game. They ran plays for him. He was shut out in the payoffs cuz miami did a good job

Wins are the bottom line. So yes 18-6 is 'so there' for better or worse. What was the breakdown of MDA and Woody this year under offensive efficiency anyway? I doubt MDA was alot better if he was even better. I don't remeber the Knicks being very good on the O this season but they struggled especially under MDA. Woody is no hall of fame coach for sure. He has his weaknesses but it's like upgrading from a Dodge Neon to BMW 3 series compared to MDA.

loweyecue wrote:When you think of the Knicks offensive impotence under Woody, MUHAHA is what usually comes to mind. Great chart by the way. It shows what I have been saying since Woodson took over. We will completely ignore more efficient scoring options in favor of dumping the ball to Melo. Now people like Holfresh think this is the way to go. Then after losing games the excuse is " Melo can't do it alone". - you can't beat that combination.

Between Tyson, Novak, Amare and Lin we have very efficient scoring options and yet our wooden headed coach will use all of those combined less times than ISO plays for Melo. But he is 18-6 so there!!!!!!