Knicks · so it just occurred to me... (page 1)

here we are looking for a backup PG to lin...someone who can play about 10-15mins a game, doesn't have to be a superstar and play good defense

so far fans have mentioned: kidd, miller, nash (all are ancient fossils who we cannot afford), brandon roy (SMH), jonny flynn and the immortal patty mills

then it occurred to me that what were looking for might already be on our roster: TONEY DOUGLAS

before you cringe, let me make some points:

CONS
1. this guy COMPLETELY lost his confidence and was a shell of himself
2. no he CANNOT run a MDA offense that requires a skilled decision making guard
3. woody gave him a chance and he looked awful - but wouldn't you be rusty too after not playing?!

PROS
1. he plays Defense!
2. he can shoot! (please see highlights below)
3. were not asking him to start like last yr. but i think hes capable of 10-15 minutes
4. he wont be asked to run a MDA offense...simply play back up and give the ball to melo..lol
5. he signed and under contract so lets USE HIM...hes still young and hashttp:// talent
6. if not trade his a$$ for a solid player who can contribute...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2jvQvNie...

I'd like to say this is a good call. But he just looked SOOOO terrible. But if we're speaking relatively, so did Amar'e and Fields. I'd be ok letting Fields walk because he can't shoot or play defense. But Toney showed the ability to do both his first 2 seasons. And he dealt with some issues last season. So maybe he can be the guy to provide backup minutes. But we would still need to bring someone else on just in case. I'd go with someone like Derek Fisher, Flynn, etc.

I think if the choice is between someone like Nash or Lin, we should go with Nash, We're in win now mode anyway. Lin is still an unproven, albeit exciting player. Somehow having both would be an incredible gift to Knicks fans.

I'll never understand how players go from decent players with promise, to complete rubbish, like TD did.

Panos wrote:I'll never understand how players go from decent players with promise, to complete rubbish, like TD did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injury

I'm not sure the issue is him having a bad year. I know he can recover. The issue is him simply not being a PG. As a guard who can float between the 1 and 2 and play increased minutes during injury or foul trouble, he can really fit, but as a pure backup PG, i just don't see it.

I think I am the only one who thinks they should really talk to TD. I like TD even though he got completely overshadowed by Lin. Maybe he is not PG material but TD can have other useful roles. Maybe he just need to practice some more and hard. If he has problems, the team should help with that. I mean that's why they are called a team! But hey, that is just me. After all, sports world is known for callousness and made up of owners/managers/coaches/players/fans who will give up or even step on its players who are down while they would worship the overpaid superstars.

In a different role where he's not asked to be a distributor, but mainly to bring it up and get the set started with a simple pass, that is not a problem for TD IMO. If his shot was working he could've been more useful in that role, not much different than Bibby who really is only a spot up shooter at this point in his career. Look TD is here and we have to hope he can get healthy and get his stroke back. I can't imagine that he just completely lost his game like that permanently.

Landry is also a guy that could have a bounce back year. I think Landry did make some improvements in his game, in particular his penetration and passing, but fell off in his long distance shooting. He was never a bad shooter, so I would think that is something he could work on and get back.

Let's face it, we NEED these guys to come around cuz it's gonna be hard to add talent. Anytime we can grow from within will be a huge plus. TD could easily have just had a bad year and snap back. Still, the team needs another good distributor and they should make that a priority. The same goes for more shooting at the SG spot.

TD at his best was an atrocity at pg. cannot lead a group of _ other guys

Are you going to wait to see if he still has it, or regain his touch while other FA pass you buy..

I would take any shooting guard or combo guard from the NBDL over TD right now...

callmened wrote:here we are looking for a backup PG to lin...someone who can play about 10-15mins a game, doesn't have to be a superstar and play good defense

so far fans have mentioned: kidd, miller, nash (all are ancient fossils who we cannot afford), brandon roy (SMH), jonny flynn and the immortal patty mills

then it occurred to me that what were looking for might already be on our roster: TONEY DOUGLAS

before you cringe, let me make some points:

CONS
1. this guy COMPLETELY lost his confidence and was a shell of himself
2. no he CANNOT run a MDA offense that requires a skilled decision making guard
3. woody gave him a chance and he looked awful - but wouldn't you be rusty too after not playing?!

PROS
1. he plays Defense!
2. he can shoot! (please see highlights below)
3. were not asking him to start like last yr. but i think hes capable of 10-15 minutes
4. he wont be asked to run a MDA offense...simply play back up and give the ball to melo..lol
5. he signed and under contract so lets USE HIM...hes still young and hashttp:// talent
6. if not trade his a$$ for a solid player who can contribute...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2jvQvNie...

Maybe (and only) as a last resort.

Shoulder surgery in the last off season derailed his season. With a full off season and ability to rehab which was missing last year due to lock out may make a huge difference in Doouglass' game.

It's true- some people look like they "lost it" but injury and overexpectations can make a pretty good player look terrible- It would be great if he came back and became Bobby Jackson like we all wished....

Yeah, TD can lose his confidence very easily. It is funny how this is only 1.5 years ago.
After coming off the injury and the lock out, he was asked to facilitate, which was not in his game.
He is a 2nd unit player, not a starter and not a PG.

Like Stat, TD also had problem adjusting to the spacing on the floor with Tyson Chandler and his in ability to spread the floor.
If JR Smith and TD both have the ability to be good shooters.
If they can both be consistent shooters, with a G/F that can play facilitating role for the offense as a true PG they be great complimentary players.
A player that has the ability to penetrate, spread the floor, and defend 3 positions like Harden, they would be much better.

RonRon wrote:Yeah, TD can lose his confidence very easily. It is funny how this is only 1.5 years ago.
After coming off the injury and the lock out, he was asked to facilitate, which was not in his game.
He is a 2nd unit player, not a starter and not a PG.

Like Stat, TD also had problem adjusting to the spacing on the floor with Tyson Chandler and his in ability to spread the floor.
If JR Smith and TD both have the ability to be good shooters.
If they can both be consistent shooters, with a G/F that can play facilitating role for the offense as a true PG they be great complimentary players.
A player that has the ability to penetrate, spread the floor, and defend 3 positions like Harden, they would be much better.

RonRon your boner for Harden is still showing.

He plays D or did that go with the injury too?

James Harden does not have the size, strength, and length to defend Lebron James without help.
Miami is putting 5 shooters on the floor while Lebron is playing the PF and PG, with Bosh at center, Battier capable of playing both forward spots.
The only 2 possible players that can POSSIBLY defend Lebron at the post are with Durant and possibly Ibaka, yet they cannot go out, even near, the 3point line.
If they do, he will just drive pass them, and is still capable of shooting the 3point shot over them.
A player like Ariza, Shane Battier, Ilyasova, and a younger Marion probably has the best chances of defending Lebron.

And come on, Lebron is a beast, he is also pushing off with his off hand to get position, when he has the advantage of strength, athleticism, and size over Harden.
On top of it, refs are giving all the 50/50 calls, not calling the offensive fouls, and calling bogus fouls with either AND 1's and bail outs.
Again, 5 shooters, are on the floor for a reason, they have great spacing, and are all playing off Lebron's ability to post up, penetrate, and catch the players cheating.

As for the Knicks, I feel we need a player that can bind Lin, Amare, and Melo together, as well capable of making our players better.
His versatility to play PG, SG, and SF, with his ability to penetrate can open up the PnR for Amare and the shooters that cannot facilitate or create their own shots.
Players like TD, JR Smith, and even Iman Shumpert, are not good facilitating, they are all willing to just bring the ball up, and hand over the ball to Melo and play Iso ball.
A style I do not think works effectively because OKC is 10x better with more athleticism, length, than the Knicks are, yet they are unable to execute/play inefficiently.
To beat the Heat, you have to have great spacing, with movement off the ball, with a post option that is agile, 4 legit shooting threats at the 3point line, 2 players that can penetrate off the dribble, and that give 110% on effort on defense. Look back on how Dallas was able to beat this last year, but remember Haslem was not fully in shape, and Battier/Norris Cole were not part of that team. They did not have the players they have this year, to play 5 shooters, not allowing the help defense to get punished, especially vs the zone defense, they used. They were over confident in themselves, but has formed a nice identity, and chemistry with their role players since then.

Harden also must improve his ability to move well off the ball and sharing the ball a more, not forcing penetration all the time.
I honestly think we will unlikely be true contenders, with this new CBA, till we get rid of Amare and Melo as they just make too much $$$, with too many holes to their games.

Hell no.

lol that picture is ridiculous

Vmart wrote:Shoulder surgery in the last off season derailed his season. With a full off season and ability to rehab which was missing last year due to lock out may make a huge difference in Doouglass' game.

I hope you are right and I think this needs to be considered. Also, Douglas is a high character guy noted for his tremendous work ethic. However,he was horrible last year and it was a huge mistake for the Knicks to start the season counting on him to be their point. After last season, it might be a huge mistake to count on him to contribute at all.

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:Shoulder surgery in the last off season derailed his season. With a full off season and ability to rehab which was missing last year due to lock out may make a huge difference in Doouglass' game.

I hope you are right and I think this needs to be considered. Also, Douglas is a high character guy noted for his tremendous work ethic. However,he was horrible last year and it was a huge mistake for the Knicks to start the season counting on him to be their point. After last season, it might be a huge mistake to count on him to contribute at all.

i like douglas and i still feel he could help us. I dont think he ever recovered from his shoulder surgery until the end of the season