Knicks · Knicks vs Dallas who is better? (page 1)

C-Kaman
F Nowitski
F Marion
G OJ Mayo
PG Collison
C PF Brand
G Carter
G West
G Beaubois

is west signed?

I think the knicks are better but Dallas had a really good off season.

That's a good team comparison, Briggs. Mavs have the advantage at PF and SG(no Shumpert) for now. Knicks everywhere else.

WOW, talk about reloading in a hurry. 100% agree with ChuckBuck.

not a very good defensive team for Dallas. Other than West, there isn't a single decent defender among them. Marion has slowed and had been pretty bad since that good effort he had when they beat Miami. Not nearly the defender he was. Kaman has in the past been a pretty good post defender but, dude has never stayed healthy so, I don't expect him to start now.

Brand is a very good pick-n-pop guy but isn't intimidating anyone inside. To be honest, considering where they play, this team will be lucky to make the playoffs. I have both LA teams ahead of them along with all the SA, Mem, and Golden State. They're going to have to fight for those final spots.

That's a dope team lots of balance and options....to

Still feel the knicks need a skill player at the 2 to holds us off till Shump can contribute....Carlos Delfino son!

if Dallas is a good comparison, then we're fucked. Dallas is a second tier West team at best. I have to think the Knicks are better because we took tyson Chandler from them.

DurzoBlint wrote:not a very good defensive team for Dallas. Other than West, there isn't a single decent defender among them. Marion has slowed and had been pretty bad since that good effort he had when they beat Miami. Not nearly the defender he was. Kaman has in the past been a pretty good post defender but, dude has never stayed healthy so, I don't expect him to start now.

Brand is a very good pick-n-pop guy but isn't intimidating anyone inside. To be honest, considering where they play, this team will be lucky to make the playoffs. I have both LA teams ahead of them along with all the SA, Mem, and Golden State. They're going to have to fight for those final spots.

They have some pretty good size upfront to guard the rim and good speed in the backcourt for the perimeter. I think they may have more scoring options now. Haywood was not dependable inside for scoring but Brnad and Kaman will be. They should be able to spread the floor better and that could lead to improved fg% from everywhere.

I think Brandon Wright is in rotation somewhere as well.
That is a tough one, I personally think think we are over rating our Knick's once again though.
I think Kaman is very under rated, he was one of my plan B players, adding on from the pre Melo trade.
He is a center that can be a 16/10/ 2-3 blocks a game, I am quite surprised he couldn't at least get a 2-3 year deal.
Brandon Wright/Kaman should be playing Center with Brand at PF for most games.
Wright is interesting, once known as "Briggs" gems with his length, Golden State tried to play him at SF-PF at times.
Maybe Wright finally found his role at PF/C with the WRIGHT team.

I do not think we are nearly as good as majority of us think we are.
I don't know it could change on how they fill out these last 2-3 spots.

This year's Knicks vs last seasons
-------------------------------------------------

3 BIG LOSSES

We lost Iman *honestly no one will know how productive he will be this season, it might be ready during play off time but could be a few steps back from last year.

JJ - yes, Jeffries is a big part of our defense and our versatility guy. He no longer will get many minutes at C with Camby here, but someone that is as light on his feet at 6'11, unselfish, and does all the dirty work is hard to replace. He set's great screens, plays great D, and always looks to get shots for team mates.

Lin - Felton *MAYBE* better than Lin with Amare and Melo because of the ego's, system(Woodson), and defense issues in the starting lineup.
But Lin as the #1 option with the shooters, ball handlers, and spacing we have now, are much more complete players than Lin had during "Linsanity"

They are both completely different PG's but I do not see Raymond Felton anywhere as efficient and will struggle without 4 shooters in the starting lineup.
There simply is no room to operate, he is being set up for disaster.
Unless Tyson Chandler and Amare both come back with a post game, after a couple sessions with Hakeem?

WHAT WE DID REPLACE

We improved over players like TD/Bibby, Baron Davis, Jordan, with Felton, Kidd, Camby.
Lin is replaced by Pablo as a backup PG.
I think Kidd will actually be playing SG and even SF at times, with a 3 guard line up.

These guys were not a big part of our rotation though.
The top 3 players that we loss, have not been replaced.

Our finishing 5 or/and starting 5 still is not good enough to compete/match up well enough versus playoff/elite teams.
I have to see "Woodson's plays" to get a better feel, but if it is HEAVY ISO for majority of 48min, I think we are screwed.
Also, I think we have to see if Tyson Chandler/Camby can work together to finish out games, especially vs a mobile stretch 4 like Durant.

We just added Ronnie Brewer which would help a lot, especially with Iman's injury.
We still do not even have 1 player that can legit defend The Lebron/Durant etc....

With Cunningham, James, and Croweder, I think the edge goes to Dallas with youth vs experience.

gotta give cuban credit for recovering. He was clearing space to make a run at Howard/deron and he didnt get either but he made good pickups for good deals

ChuckBuck wrote:That's a good team comparison, Briggs. Mavs have the advantage at PF and SG(no Shumpert) for now. Knicks everywhere else.

I think the knicks have the edge at SG even without Brewer but know that Brewer is on board the Knicks are much better

It always amazes me how many times people forget about the defensive side of the ball when making these these comparisons. Compare the Bulls roster over the last couple of years to most playoff teams and on paper they appear to have less talent, until you look at the defensive side of the ball. On paper, we are a much better defensive team than Dallas. Brand, Dirk, Collison (one of the reasons he was benched in Indy), Carter and even Kaman are not big time defensive players by any stretch. I think we are the better overall team.

Uptown wrote:It always amazes me how many times people forget about the defensive side of the ball when making these these comparisons. Compare the Bulls roster over the last couple of years to most playoff teams and on paper they appear to have less talent, until you look at the defensive side of the ball. On paper, we are a much better defensive team than Dallas. Brand, Dirk, Collison (one of the reasons he was benched in Indy), Carter and even Kaman are not big time defensive players by any stretch. I think we are the better overall team.

Great point. Before reading your post I was actually going to say something similar. Think about the 2011 Chicago team that lost to Miami in the ECF. they were great defensively and I think we have the roster to be that good defensively as well. But we have more offensive weapons than that team did. A big part of that is STAT though and at this point I dont know that he'll be better than Boozer. He should be but I don't know. I think that's a good comparison to make. We're better than Dalls.

Dallas is probably better. This offseason the only player of note they lost was Jason Terry but they added Kaman, Brand, Collison, and Mayo. We lost Lin and gained Camby, Felton, and Brewer. Both teams were pretty similar last season and finished with the same record but Dallas has had the better offseason so they should be better.

Uptown wrote:It always amazes me how many times people forget about the defensive side of the ball when making these these comparisons. Compare the Bulls roster over the last couple of years to most playoff teams and on paper they appear to have less talent, until you look at the defensive side of the ball. On paper, we are a much better defensive team than Dallas. Brand, Dirk, Collison (one of the reasons he was benched in Indy), Carter and even Kaman are not big time defensive players by any stretch. I think we are the better overall team.

I made the same points earlier in this thread. They have suffered defensively and, I can still see them missing the post season considering who they will be competing against. Dirk better return to the form he had during the championship run.

VCoug wrote:Dallas is probably better. This offseason the only player of note they lost was Jason Terry but they added Kaman, Brand, Collison, and Mayo. We lost Lin and gained Camby, Felton, and Brewer. Both teams were pretty similar last season and finished with the same record but Dallas has had the better offseason so they should be better.

Jason Kidd?

DurzoBlint wrote:

Uptown wrote:It always amazes me how many times people forget about the defensive side of the ball when making these these comparisons. Compare the Bulls roster over the last couple of years to most playoff teams and on paper they appear to have less talent, until you look at the defensive side of the ball. On paper, we are a much better defensive team than Dallas. Brand, Dirk, Collison (one of the reasons he was benched in Indy), Carter and even Kaman are not big time defensive players by any stretch. I think we are the better overall team.

I made the same points earlier in this thread. They have suffered defensively and, I can still see them missing the post season considering who they will be competing against. Dirk better return to the form he had during the championship run.

I agree. They've lost a lot of good players since their championship run and Dirk had a sub-par season last year. I think the Mavs will be around .510 and the Knicks will be better.

martin wrote:

VCoug wrote:Dallas is probably better. This offseason the only player of note they lost was Jason Terry but they added Kaman, Brand, Collison, and Mayo. We lost Lin and gained Camby, Felton, and Brewer. Both teams were pretty similar last season and finished with the same record but Dallas has had the better offseason so they should be better.

Jason Kidd?

Lol, don't sweat the details Martin. Kidd only was their starting point guard for the last 4 1/2 years and led them to title 2 seasons ago.

Uptown wrote:It always amazes me how many times people forget about the defensive side of the ball when making these these comparisons. Compare the Bulls roster over the last couple of years to most playoff teams and on paper they appear to have less talent, until you look at the defensive side of the ball. On paper, we are a much better defensive team than Dallas. Brand, Dirk, Collison (one of the reasons he was benched in Indy), Carter and even Kaman are not big time defensive players by any stretch. I think we are the better overall team.

its really hard to compare us to The Bulls.
First of we, don't have a Taj Gibson and a Luol Deng which are both critical pieces to have with The Bulls Defense.

2nd, they are all very cohesive, play with BB IQ and share the ball very well their forwards know how to camp by the baseline, knowing when to move and expect a pass.

Noah/ Omar Osik /Boozer can be compared to Chandler/ Camby/ Amare in some ways but they are actually quite different.
Noah, Omar Osik, Boozer all can post up. Yes Amare, is taking 2 week lessons, but it is really hard to compare Boozer/Amare, they are similar and opposites at the same time.
Boozer's fundamentals are the main difference while Amare came straight from high school, DEF and fundamentals were not learned,
His game revolved around his quickness/athleticism, hopefully it is something he gains back this year with last years injury, he also loss weight.

Noah is more quicker/ much more athletic/ and hits that ugly Dragon Ball Z shot, when Chandler doesn't even attempt one.
Chandler is mentally better but physically Noah is much more intimidating.

I think Camby is better than Omar Osik, overall. But Omar uses his body very well, although Camby isn't exactly the stick he use to be.
Omar uses his body to fight for position, sometimes over aggressive, but it keeps defenders fatigued when he constantly puts a body on you on both ends.
But Camby is the much better rebounder/ and slightly better shot blocker at 39.

Deng/Gibson both are very versatile, great length, move REALLY well *high IQ*, and ARE REALLY tough/smart players.
What these both bring to The Bulls, are the most important, we do not have the players to replicate what they bring on the Knicks.
Gibson is the player that they cannot replace, with his length and what he brings to the team, they expect a poison pill heading their way next summer or a big contract that they cannot afford to let go.
I think Greg Stimensa is a player that is a great backup Center that rebounds, plays defense, and block shots at a undervalued rate.

Derrick Rose, to have a PG/SG of Rose's caliber is just amazing, his penetration sets everyone up with their unselfishness, BB IQ/Cohesiveness, off the ball movement/cuts, and ball movement.
The Bulls are just very well coached and fundamentally sound, so its hard to compare both teams.

While I agree we have improved, I do not think we are nearly as good as most of the fans think we are here.
I guess many of the people here are bias , being fans and being positive and supportive which we should be.
But will we be nearly as cohesive, smart, taking quality high % shots, and play quality TEAM defense, remains a question.

It seems that The Bulls are planning to take a step backwards this year to take a bigger step forward for their future.
Developing Jeff Teague, maybe get a higher draft pick, prepared to amnesty Boozer, and adding more talent next summer, with MLE and keeping Gibson, and with future draft picks/as well as the rights of their future Euro's they have stashed.

VCoug wrote:Dallas is probably better. This offseason the only player of note they lost was Jason Terry but they added Kaman, Brand, Collison, and Mayo. We lost Lin and gained Camby, Felton, and Brewer. Both teams were pretty similar last season and finished with the same record but Dallas has had the better offseason so they should be better.

Same record and we had ridiclous roster turn over all year with no training camp whatsoever. People seem to forget how bad are PG and Guard situation in general was for more then half the year. lin was great for 25 games what about the crap we rolled out there for the other 41. Just having Felton /Kidd for a season is an upgrade. Landry fields not playing is an upgrade. Douglas could be the worst player in the NBA he averaged 18 minutes a game for more then half the season. Mike Bibby aveaged 15 minutes for almost 40 games. Addition by Subtraction the Knicks are better at PG. U cant look at the Lin,Melo,Amare,Chandler Shumpert lineup and go that team had the same record as Dallas because that team played what 7 games together. Knicks had so much roster turmoil last year. Just a consistent roster around Melo,Chandler and Amare will improve this team