NBA · Summary of Jeremy "Gift" Lin's Pre-Season.... (page 14)

NYKBocker @ 11/8/2012 10:28 AM
Allanfan20 wrote:NYKBocker, I noticed that too. As much as I like Harden, is he really a #1 option when he was a #3 in OKC and Lin was a #1 in NY at a few points? Not saying Lin is a #1 by any stretch but treating Harden like he's Durant doesn't seem like smart basketball to me.

I agree. I would also make sure one of them is on the floor at all times. When they are together, make sure Lin initiates the offense. When he is out then Harden can initiate the offense. I think McHale fell in love with what Harden did in the first 2 games and is too stupid to correct it. You let Lin play to his strength and you will see Harden flourish even more as a pure shooting guard.

NUPE @ 11/8/2012 10:59 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:NYKBocker, I noticed that too. As much as I like Harden, is he really a #1 option when he was a #3 in OKC and Lin was a #1 in NY at a few points? Not saying Lin is a #1 by any stretch but treating Harden like he's Durant doesn't seem like smart basketball to me.

I agree. I would also make sure one of them is on the floor at all times. When they are together, make sure Lin initiates the offense. When he is out then Harden can initiate the offense. I think McHale fell in love with what Harden did in the first 2 games and is too stupid to correct it. You let Lin play to his strength and you will see Harden flourish even more as a pure shooting guard.

Harden is the better player, with better ball handling abilities and should have the ball more, imo.

Bonn1997 @ 11/8/2012 11:03 AM
NUPE wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:NYKBocker, I noticed that too. As much as I like Harden, is he really a #1 option when he was a #3 in OKC and Lin was a #1 in NY at a few points? Not saying Lin is a #1 by any stretch but treating Harden like he's Durant doesn't seem like smart basketball to me.

I agree. I would also make sure one of them is on the floor at all times. When they are together, make sure Lin initiates the offense. When he is out then Harden can initiate the offense. I think McHale fell in love with what Harden did in the first 2 games and is too stupid to correct it. You let Lin play to his strength and you will see Harden flourish even more as a pure shooting guard.

Harden is the better player, with better ball handling abilities and should have the ball more, imo.


No doubt, Harden should be taking more shots per game than Lin. The issue is who should be initiating the offense. Lin is the better passer of the two.
NYKBocker @ 11/8/2012 11:08 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:NYKBocker, I noticed that too. As much as I like Harden, is he really a #1 option when he was a #3 in OKC and Lin was a #1 in NY at a few points? Not saying Lin is a #1 by any stretch but treating Harden like he's Durant doesn't seem like smart basketball to me.

I agree. I would also make sure one of them is on the floor at all times. When they are together, make sure Lin initiates the offense. When he is out then Harden can initiate the offense. I think McHale fell in love with what Harden did in the first 2 games and is too stupid to correct it. You let Lin play to his strength and you will see Harden flourish even more as a pure shooting guard.

Harden is the better player, with better ball handling abilities and should have the ball more, imo.


No doubt, Harden should be taking more shots per game than Lin. The issue is who should be initiating the offense. Lin is the better passer of the two.

Yup Yup. That is not the question. Harden is the better player but Lin needs to initiate the offense most of the times.

3G4G @ 11/8/2012 12:00 PM
Last night was simply an awful game to watch. The players gave effort but the results were tough to endure on the eyes. They are young teams trying to learn to win so I guess you'll see games like this, but it's still unacceptable as professionals.

Harden is going to have to adjust and play to convert instead of looking for calls. Maybe in time the refs will give him the same respect as other stars, he's not quite there yet. Lin is going to have to work on his shooting, handles, and conditioning all fixable. I expect him to show improvement throughout the year.

NYKBocker @ 11/8/2012 12:23 PM
3G4G wrote:Last night was simply an awful game to watch. The players gave effort but the results were tough to endure on the eyes. They are young teams trying to learn to win so I guess you'll see games like this, but it's still unacceptable as professionals.

Harden is going to have to adjust and play to convert instead of looking for calls. Maybe in time the refs will give him the same respect as other stars, he's not quite there yet. Lin is going to have to work on his shooting, handles, and conditioning all fixable. I expect him to show improvement throughout the year.


I didn't have any problems with Lin's handle. The 2 TOs he committed last night were due to him getting banged around and no call. BUT...he really needs to work on his 3 PT Shot. It was horrible. There was one attempt, where I think he got hit in the elbow, but the ball was 2 feet to the left. You know who Houston needs? Fishlips. Great screener.

Lin's defense last night was very good. The 6 steals were awesome. He played the passing lanes great. He was able to tie up Lawson in one occasion and shut down Gallo on a switch.

Lin's rebounding is also very very good. Dude just has a nose for the ball.

3G4G @ 11/8/2012 12:46 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
3G4G wrote:Last night was simply an awful game to watch. The players gave effort but the results were tough to endure on the eyes. They are young teams trying to learn to win so I guess you'll see games like this, but it's still unacceptable as professionals.

Harden is going to have to adjust and play to convert instead of looking for calls. Maybe in time the refs will give him the same respect as other stars, he's not quite there yet. Lin is going to have to work on his shooting, handles, and conditioning all fixable. I expect him to show improvement throughout the year.


I didn't have any problems with Lin's handle. The 2 TOs he committed last night were due to him getting banged around and no call. BUT...he really needs to work on his 3 PT Shot. It was horrible. There was one attempt, where I think he got hit in the elbow, but the ball was 2 feet to the left. You know who Houston needs? Fishlips. Great screener.

Lin's defense last night was very good. The 6 steals were awesome. He played the passing lanes great. He was able to tie up Lawson in one occasion and shut down Gallo on a switch.

Lin's rebounding is also very very good. Dude just has a nose for the ball.

The stats/box scores in last nights game were totally misleading on both sides of the ball.

holfresh @ 11/8/2012 1:10 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:NYKBocker, I noticed that too. As much as I like Harden, is he really a #1 option when he was a #3 in OKC and Lin was a #1 in NY at a few points? Not saying Lin is a #1 by any stretch but treating Harden like he's Durant doesn't seem like smart basketball to me.

I agree. I would also make sure one of them is on the floor at all times. When they are together, make sure Lin initiates the offense. When he is out then Harden can initiate the offense. I think McHale fell in love with what Harden did in the first 2 games and is too stupid to correct it. You let Lin play to his strength and you will see Harden flourish even more as a pure shooting guard.

Harden is the better player, with better ball handling abilities and should have the ball more, imo.


No doubt, Harden should be taking more shots per game than Lin. The issue is who should be initiating the offense. Lin is the better passer of the two.

But it depends on what type of offense you are running as well...Everyone just doesn't morph into a pick and roll offense...

tkf @ 11/8/2012 1:28 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
3G4G wrote:Last night was simply an awful game to watch. The players gave effort but the results were tough to endure on the eyes. They are young teams trying to learn to win so I guess you'll see games like this, but it's still unacceptable as professionals.

Harden is going to have to adjust and play to convert instead of looking for calls. Maybe in time the refs will give him the same respect as other stars, he's not quite there yet. Lin is going to have to work on his shooting, handles, and conditioning all fixable. I expect him to show improvement throughout the year.


I didn't have any problems with Lin's handle. The 2 TOs he committed last night were due to him getting banged around and no call. BUT...he really needs to work on his 3 PT Shot. It was horrible. There was one attempt, where I think he got hit in the elbow, but the ball was 2 feet to the left. You know who Houston needs? Fishlips. Great screener.

Lin's defense last night was very good. The 6 steals were awesome. He played the passing lanes great. He was able to tie up Lawson in one occasion and shut down Gallo on a switch.

Lin's rebounding is also very very good. Dude just has a nose for the ball.

I actually thought his defense was pretty good last night as well. he was able to stay in front of lawson for that tie up as you mentioned and he also contested a few of lawson's shots which ended up almost being airballs... a couple of the steals also came when lawson tried to split the double and lin simply was able to take the ball away.... he didn't have a great game, but I would not say he was awful..

tkf @ 11/8/2012 1:31 PM
3G4G wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
3G4G wrote:Last night was simply an awful game to watch. The players gave effort but the results were tough to endure on the eyes. They are young teams trying to learn to win so I guess you'll see games like this, but it's still unacceptable as professionals.

Harden is going to have to adjust and play to convert instead of looking for calls. Maybe in time the refs will give him the same respect as other stars, he's not quite there yet. Lin is going to have to work on his shooting, handles, and conditioning all fixable. I expect him to show improvement throughout the year.


I didn't have any problems with Lin's handle. The 2 TOs he committed last night were due to him getting banged around and no call. BUT...he really needs to work on his 3 PT Shot. It was horrible. There was one attempt, where I think he got hit in the elbow, but the ball was 2 feet to the left. You know who Houston needs? Fishlips. Great screener.

Lin's defense last night was very good. The 6 steals were awesome. He played the passing lanes great. He was able to tie up Lawson in one occasion and shut down Gallo on a switch.

Lin's rebounding is also very very good. Dude just has a nose for the ball.

The stats/box scores in last nights game were totally misleading on both sides of the ball.

where did the stats mislead? houston shot 36% how is that misleading? they didn't shoot well, no one disputes that. The nuggets shot 45%, that wasn't misleading, they were making shots at one point and had a 15 point lead in the 3rd qtr... the game was a little sloppy which kept it close for the rockets, there were more turnovers than we like to see, but I think it is overstated a bit on how awful the game was... it was competitive and wasn't decided until the last minute. teams played hard and made plays down the end to decide the game...

NYKBocker @ 11/8/2012 2:18 PM
http://dimemag.com/2012/11/houston-gm-de...

HOUSTON GM DEFENDS JEREMY LIN’S TURNOVERS
BY SEAN SWEENEY

Even during the apex of Linsanity last year, Jeremy Lin always had a problem coughing up the rock. With New York in 2011-12, he committed 3.6 turnovers a night despite playing less than 27 minutes. Much of that had to do with his role with the Knicks – they were asking him to do so much, probably too much that inevitably he was going to make mistakes (For comparison’s sake, Lin’s usage rate dwarfed other high-volume turnover guards like Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo). But still, people are right to question Lin’s efficiency because statistically, you can make an argument he’s a poor creator (last year, he averaged just 6.1 dimes a night, and his assist rate was less than half of the aforementioned Rondo and Nash).

With less pressure this season in Houston (usage rate is down to a more manageable 21.4), he’s taking better care of the ball, turning it over less (down to 3.3) and producing more assists (7.3). James Harden deserves some of the credit. In barely a week, defenses are beginning to completely key in on the swingman, leaving Lin more opportunities to avoid traps and extra attention off pick-n-rolls.

The Rockets are certainly happy with his production, even if he’s shooting just 29-for-87 this year when you include the preseason (at 27 percent, his three-point shooting over the same period is even worse). They expect those numbers to rise. And when a fan asked why Lin commits so many turnovers, Houston’s GM Daryl Morey defended Lin on the online community Quora by writing:

Many of Jeremy’s turnovers are charges. These are the best turnovers to have as not only do charges mean that you are being aggressive as a player (when good things often happen) but also turnover charges are not “live ball” turnovers where teams get a higher expected value possession the other way. For example, in our opening Detroit game, Jeremy had no “bad pass” turnovers. They were all charges or off the dribble. Compare his lack of any bad pass turnovers to his 12 “high quality” passes in the game (passes he made that set up high percentage offense for others)

This leads into my next point that Jeremy’s passes were the best in the league last year in the percentage that led to high quality offense. This is a fancy way of saying that when he makes a risky pass it is usually for a high reward so his bad pass turnovers, when he has them, are not as bad as for other guards as his avg possession efficiency remains higher

Finally, most young guards who are going to be very good start as high turnover players in college and in their early seasons in the pros and get better throughout their career

Much of what Morey wrote makes sense. In the season opener in Detroit, Lin had four turnovers and eight dimes. Average production for a starting point guard, but by Morey’s calculations, it was excellent. We (as in the basketball media/fan base) still don’t always have access to viable statistics to accurately rate “hockey” assists, the ones that lead to the pass that leads to a basket, nor do we have any consistent way of telling how good a creator someone is if they’re setting up teammates for shots and by plain bad luck they aren’t falling.

But in the end, Morey is absolutely right about this: most of the league’s best distributors also turn the ball over at incredibly high rates. Lin is also an attacking point guard, and through the years, whether it was Allen Iverson or Baron Davis, guards who consistently challenged the defense often coughed it up as well. It’s rare, nearly impossible, to find a guard that can handle the rock, and run an offense for large portions of a game without fumbling away possessions. But of all the players who played at least 25 minutes a night last season, the five highest turnover rates belonged to Nash, Rondo, Jason Kidd, Ricky Rubio and… Kendrick Perkins (someone doesn’t fit here).

As long as Lin is productive outside of those turnovers, Houston’s brass shouldn’t be too concerned.

tkf @ 11/8/2012 2:46 PM
NYKBocker wrote:http://dimemag.com/2012/11/houston-gm-de...

HOUSTON GM DEFENDS JEREMY LIN’S TURNOVERS
BY SEAN SWEENEY

Even during the apex of Linsanity last year, Jeremy Lin always had a problem coughing up the rock. With New York in 2011-12, he committed 3.6 turnovers a night despite playing less than 27 minutes. Much of that had to do with his role with the Knicks – they were asking him to do so much, probably too much that inevitably he was going to make mistakes (For comparison’s sake, Lin’s usage rate dwarfed other high-volume turnover guards like Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo). But still, people are right to question Lin’s efficiency because statistically, you can make an argument he’s a poor creator (last year, he averaged just 6.1 dimes a night, and his assist rate was less than half of the aforementioned Rondo and Nash).

With less pressure this season in Houston (usage rate is down to a more manageable 21.4), he’s taking better care of the ball, turning it over less (down to 3.3) and producing more assists (7.3). James Harden deserves some of the credit. In barely a week, defenses are beginning to completely key in on the swingman, leaving Lin more opportunities to avoid traps and extra attention off pick-n-rolls.

The Rockets are certainly happy with his production, even if he’s shooting just 29-for-87 this year when you include the preseason (at 27 percent, his three-point shooting over the same period is even worse). They expect those numbers to rise. And when a fan asked why Lin commits so many turnovers, Houston’s GM Daryl Morey defended Lin on the online community Quora by writing:

Many of Jeremy’s turnovers are charges. These are the best turnovers to have as not only do charges mean that you are being aggressive as a player (when good things often happen) but also turnover charges are not “live ball” turnovers where teams get a higher expected value possession the other way. For example, in our opening Detroit game, Jeremy had no “bad pass” turnovers. They were all charges or off the dribble. Compare his lack of any bad pass turnovers to his 12 “high quality” passes in the game (passes he made that set up high percentage offense for others)

This leads into my next point that Jeremy’s passes were the best in the league last year in the percentage that led to high quality offense. This is a fancy way of saying that when he makes a risky pass it is usually for a high reward so his bad pass turnovers, when he has them, are not as bad as for other guards as his avg possession efficiency remains higher

Finally, most young guards who are going to be very good start as high turnover players in college and in their early seasons in the pros and get better throughout their career

Much of what Morey wrote makes sense. In the season opener in Detroit, Lin had four turnovers and eight dimes. Average production for a starting point guard, but by Morey’s calculations, it was excellent. We (as in the basketball media/fan base) still don’t always have access to viable statistics to accurately rate “hockey” assists, the ones that lead to the pass that leads to a basket, nor do we have any consistent way of telling how good a creator someone is if they’re setting up teammates for shots and by plain bad luck they aren’t falling.

But in the end, Morey is absolutely right about this: most of the league’s best distributors also turn the ball over at incredibly high rates. Lin is also an attacking point guard, and through the years, whether it was Allen Iverson or Baron Davis, guards who consistently challenged the defense often coughed it up as well. It’s rare, nearly impossible, to find a guard that can handle the rock, and run an offense for large portions of a game without fumbling away possessions. But of all the players who played at least 25 minutes a night last season, the five highest turnover rates belonged to Nash, Rondo, Jason Kidd, Ricky Rubio and… Kendrick Perkins (someone doesn’t fit here).

As long as Lin is productive outside of those turnovers, Houston’s brass shouldn’t be too concerned.

NICE READ THERE.. AND another thing during linsanity was that they were still winning games despite his high turnover rate... Wins are the key here..

Bonn1997 @ 11/8/2012 3:28 PM
Lin is a steal machine. If you're in the very exclusive club of players with more steals than turnovers, there isn't a problem.
yellowboy90 @ 11/8/2012 3:59 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Lin is a steal machine. If you're in the very exclusive club of players with more steals than turnovers, there isn't a problem.

Having steals is great as long as he keep his turnovers low. He has done a good job so far and I hope he continues but if he start having 5+ TOs a game its a problem regardless of how many steals or assists he has. They do not cancel each other out.

Bonn1997 @ 11/8/2012 4:30 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Lin is a steal machine. If you're in the very exclusive club of players with more steals than turnovers, there isn't a problem.

Having steals is great as long as he keep his turnovers low. He has done a good job so far and I hope he continues but if he start having 5+ TOs a game its a problem regardless of how many steals or assists he has. They do not cancel each other out.


Actually, they do. Forced turnovers (meaning steals) and committed turnovers should cancel each other out on average. That's why they get similar weights in the wins produced and wins shares formulas. Getting 3.5 steals and 3.5 turnovers is much better than having numbers closer to the average PG (maybe 2.5 turnovers and 1.0 or 1.5 steals). Lin's sabermetrics are good because his high steals and rebounds more than cancel out his high turnovers and low FG%.
yellowboy90 @ 11/8/2012 4:47 PM
nm
Bonn1997 @ 11/8/2012 5:05 PM
LOL! That certainly was a concise response!

What would you rather have from a PG: 3.5 stls and 3.5 turnovers or 2.5 turnovers and 1.0 steals? My point is that if he had numbers closer to the average PG in these two categories, people would get off his case but he would actually be an inferior player.

yellowboy90 @ 11/8/2012 5:15 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:LOL! That certainly was a concise response!

What would you rather have from a PG: 3.5 stls and 3.5 turnovers or 2.5 turnovers and 1.0 steals? My point is that if he had numbers closer to the average PG in these two categories, people would get off his case but he would actually be an inferior player.

No I just didn't want to sidetrack a thread. He would be a better player if he kept the steals and assists up and lowered his TOs. It is not just about his personal numbers to me it is about his team losing out on possessions or opportunities at fgs by his turnovers.

Bonn1997 @ 11/8/2012 5:40 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:LOL! That certainly was a concise response!

What would you rather have from a PG: 3.5 stls and 3.5 turnovers or 2.5 turnovers and 1.0 steals? My point is that if he had numbers closer to the average PG in these two categories, people would get off his case but he would actually be an inferior player.


No I just didn't want to sidetrack a thread. He would be a better player if he kept the steals and assists up and lowered his TOs. It is not just about his personal numbers to me it is about his team losing out on possessions or opportunities at fgs by his turnovers.


Well it seems like all you're saying is that it would be better if he had fewer turnovers. Clearly no one is going to disagree with that. If all you're trying to do is identify areas for improvement, then turnovers is the biggest one.
My point, though, is that if you replaced him with an average PG, you'd actually lose more possessions. The replacement might commit one less turnover a game (+1.0) but get two fewer steals (-2.0).
misterearl @ 11/8/2012 6:19 PM
Stat

Bonn1997 wrote:Lin is a steal machine. If you're in the very exclusive club of players with more steals than turnovers, there isn't a problem.

Unfortunately he is only shooting 36 per cent from the field. 36 per cent is Toney Douglas territory.

NYKBocker @ 11/8/2012 10:00 PM
misterearl wrote:Stat

Bonn1997 wrote:Lin is a steal machine. If you're in the very exclusive club of players with more steals than turnovers, there isn't a problem.

Unfortunately he is only shooting 36 per cent from the field. 36 per cent is Toney Douglas territory.

That's not going to last. Once Lin gets respect from the refs then his FG% will go up.

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