Knicks · OT: HARDEN TRADED TO HOUSTON!! (page 11)

INcremental improvement but with a "Star".

Can't really argue the upcoming season can you?

BRIGGS wrote:What a F deal for Oklahoma are you kidding me? You can easily make a case that K matin is better than Harden by himself--not to mention they just got Lamb(who is going to be a good NBA player), 3 picks and dont have to be locked into a new massive contract.

Exactly man still can't get over how OKC pulled this off. They will be good for a very long time. Knicks will be good in 2112.

TOP PLAYERS that have the ability to penetrate and finish vs multiple defenders
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1- Lebron

2- Westbrook

3- Wade
4- Wall
5- Harden
6- Ginobili
7- Irving

8- Cp3

6- Monta Ellis
7- Jennings
8- Lawson
9- Parker
10- Deron Williams

11- Mike Conley
12- Lowry
13- Dragic
14- Rhondo
15- Holiday

16- Durant
17- Rudy Gay

18-Tyreke Evans *could go higher when he was at his best, but actually was only cosistent in his rookie year and 2nd year with some injuries during his career*

19- Lin
20- Barea

Honorable Mentions, Kemba Walker, Iggy, Isiah Thomas(KINGS), Sessions, Felton, Lilliard, Stephen Curry

I tried to put players that were capable of playing PG/SG first.
Lin and Harden are no midgets that would cause mathup problems, especially DEF, like Monta Ellis/Jennings do, Curry/Ellis did

Harden has the ability to dominate in PG/SG, rather than SF. Putting Harden on Lebron killed his game offensively while he struggled 1 series vs the best/quickest defensive team in the league.
Can Lin and Harden play together efficiently, while keeping their team mates efficient is the biggest question.
If they can learn to play with each other, playing off the ball, playing with the ball, moving off the ball, and getting their team mates in catch and shoot scenarios they will be one of the deadliest backcourts in the entire league. They both have the skills to do it, just like Westbrook/Harden did but they didn't.

I love what Harden brings to the table and I said it during last year's playoffs that he was going to get the MAX deal.
Many teams want Harden including Sun's, Dallas, Bobcats, and are willing to pay/trade for his services.
Having 2 players that can penetrate/finish, create for themslves as well as others, and handle the ball/break defenses down are going to do wonders together.
Their abilities to draw fouls, hit wide open 3pointers, defend their positions, and attack the basket/break defenses down will lead to multiplying effects.

BRIGGS wrote:What a F deal for Oklahoma are you kidding me? You can easily make a case that K matin is better than Harden by himself--not to mention they just got Lamb(who is going to be a good NBA player), 3 picks and dont have to be locked into a new massive contract.

First of all Harden's contract isn't massive. 4yrs $60mil is about what players of his caliber make in this league especially considering age. But 4yrs isn't a long time to have a player under contract. Martin is a heckuva player wish we had him but in comparison to Harden.... beats him by yrs/health/potential/ and maybe overall game.

Lamb and Martin make more money than Harden this year if we're judging the trade based on these 3 players. If Martin's case of being better than Harden is true then Martin should receive a 3yr/$25-30mil minimum extension from OKC. He's currently making $13mil in an expiring year. If extended or resigned the difference between he and Lamb's salary going forward in comparison to Harden's will be about $3-4mil/yr. Not a huge gap there. If Martin is looking for a certain dollar figure and refuses to play nice with Presti he may not get a deal. What if they lose Martin in Free Agency? Then it's Lamb and picks for Harden.

The picks are protected....

From Dallas Top 20 through 2017
Do you see Dallas as a Top 10 team or a bottom 20 over the next 5yrs? I see Dallas as a 11-20 team over the next 5yrs.

From Raptors High lotto in successive yrs Top 3 Top 2 Top 1 and 15-30 protected
Do you see The Raptors getting in the Top 3 or making the playoffs or see them as a 4-14 Lottery Team next 3yrs?

Me personally I can see them making the playoffs or coming close this year and next year minimum so the pick conveyed assuming they don't land in the Top 3 will be about 12-14 range.

So now it's Lamb/#12/future pick/K-Mart if resigned for Harden.

Let me ask you do you like Cole and Lazar as young assets on cheap deals? If so and Morey picks up their options ext year, then it's

Lamb/#12/future pick/K-Mart if resigned for Harden/Cole/Lazar.

In order for OKC to come out ahead...Team Chemistry can't falter which means a return to the Finals, Lamb has be billed as advertised, K-Mart has to be resigned to a reasonable deal and remain healthy, and the Raptors have to really suck bad but too bad. Meanwhile for the Rockets all Harden has to do is show the steady improvement he's been showing each year, help improve their overall season record from last year and for Cole and/or Lazar to prove they can crack rotation. Morey if he wats can include those guys in another deal. Houston clearly got the 2nd best player of the 2009 draft and when all said and done possibly the best player of his draft class if he can best Blake.

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

with 9 years under his belt of not getting it done, you hang onto that.... it really is meaningless in the big picture.... the key is to win a championship and without amare and lin, he was 0-3 in the playoffs.... is that any validation? or are you going to use the excuse that he didn't have help? if that is the case, then please don't use the 18-6 to hype up a guy who has been a colossal playoff failure for 9 years+ in this league..

He didn't play on any championship calibre teams, it takes a strong team to win a championship. You bashing his playoff record means even less as there are many players who didn't do much in the playoffs until they went on to other teams or got better support. I don't need to hang on to 18-6 as he has a 591 win % in Denver and has been to the playoffs every yr of his career, and been to the WCF as the teams best player.

some could argue that could have been billups..

Those people would be considered mentally challenged

Wade/Lebron/ Chalmers/Cole

to lesser extents of

Ridnour/Rubio/Barea
Terry/Kidd/Barea

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats and he had a pretty good playoff run(not his best) but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled that season.

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

okc is on the threshold of a title. so they downgraded their roster. as a fan, are you happier today than you were yesterday? no, you are not.

3-4 years down the road? who cares about that.

you are right there for a title. ownership passed b/c of 5 mil dollars. harden passed b/c of 5 mil dollars. both are losers.

it's only a win for okc if they flip the expiring and some of those picks for a much better player to put them over the hump.

especially since harden was still gonna be a RFA after this season.

presti trying to get a bit too slick.

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

Reread.

The following year.

And, Billups increases his efficiency by being a top notch FT shooter and a good 3 pt shooter. His fg% is always awful but as I said, he does make up for it.

Please don't be silly and say he is/was the best player on the court. He is a solid player but thats it.

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

Reread.

The following year.

And, Billups increases his efficiency by being a top notch FT shooter and a good 3 pt shooter. His fg% is always awful but as I said, he does make up for it.

Please don't be silly and say he is/was the best player on the court. He is a solid player but thats it.

Solid?

Billups is an NBA champion and a NBA final MVP.
His nickname is Mr Big Shot and he made countless of them.
A 5 times all star, 2 times all nba 2nd team, he has proven to be an awesome pg, a coach on the court, respected by coaches and players alike.

Even at that age, the ''solid'' label is at least misguided and at worst downright insulting.

raven wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

Reread.

The following year.

And, Billups increases his efficiency by being a top notch FT shooter and a good 3 pt shooter. His fg% is always awful but as I said, he does make up for it.

Please don't be silly and say he is/was the best player on the court. He is a solid player but thats it.

Solid?

Billups is an NBA champion and a NBA final MVP.
His nickname is Mr Big Shot and he made countless of them.
A 5 times all star, 2 times all nba 2nd team, he has proven to be an awesome pg, a coach on the court, respected by coaches and players alike.

Even at that age, the ''solid'' label is at least misguided and at worst downright insulting.

Solid meaning that he is not a star.

I just argued this with Hotfresh in another thread. I was for Billups, he was for Felton. I don't think its close. Billups's only issues in my mind was poor shot selection at times especially from 2 pt range where his % is low. And, he does not create enough for his teammates - low assists numbers ...

He is was an excellent defender, and a good guy. He also fit pretty well into the grinding/slow offense in detroit.

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

Reread.

The following year.

And, Billups increases his efficiency by being a top notch FT shooter and a good 3 pt shooter. His fg% is always awful but as I said, he does make up for it.

Please don't be silly and say he is/was the best player on the court. He is a solid player but thats it.

While Billups numbers dropped some the "following season" him being thought of as the team's "best player" was qualified for the team that went to the WCF.

Melo's numbers increased along with his volume of shooting. He rebounded well too. His percentages stayed about the same compared to the season prior. He attempted 23FG to score 30pts

mrKnickShot wrote:

raven wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:No those who considered Billups the Nuggets best player that season wouldn't have been mentally challenged SHEESH I tell you....

Mr. Big Shot stats that season rounding up/down a couple tenths

Regular

18pts/6.5ast/42%/41%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/3reb

Playoffs

21pts/7ast/46%/47%(3pt)/91%fta/1.2stl/4reb

It's no wonder they got to the WCF that year, which was statistically one of Melo's worst seasons(Regular) in his career, in terms of overall output. I already looked up Melo's stats that year and he had a pretty good playoff run but It's clear between the two players why the Nuggets excelled.

Typical!

Why don't you go ahead and post his playoff numbers.

And while your at it, why don't you post their playoff numbers the following year when they lost in the FIRST ROUND.

I was trying to spare you here...

I must say in Billups case his FGA output stayed the same that year and playoffs at 12.5/gm. Simply put Billups shot considerably better in the playoffs. It was also their first season playing together 2008-2009

Melo

Regular

23pts/3.5ast/44%/37%(3pt)/79%fta/1stl/7reb

Playoffs

27pts/4ast/45%/36%(3pt)/83%fta/2stl/6reb

But But But But Melo went from 23pts to 27pts did you see that bro....sure he did he also increased his FGA by 2/gm. Melo pretty much remained the same guy he had been.... pretty decent numbers but he didn't elevate his game to another level per say that Post-Season.

Now you said post their numbers from the previous season First Round exit.....Well I would but I'd only post Melo's because Billups wasn't there, which might explain why they got bounced in the first round.

Reread.

The following year.

And, Billups increases his efficiency by being a top notch FT shooter and a good 3 pt shooter. His fg% is always awful but as I said, he does make up for it.

Please don't be silly and say he is/was the best player on the court. He is a solid player but thats it.

Solid?

Billups is an NBA champion and a NBA final MVP.
His nickname is Mr Big Shot and he made countless of them.
A 5 times all star, 2 times all nba 2nd team, he has proven to be an awesome pg, a coach on the court, respected by coaches and players alike.

Even at that age, the ''solid'' label is at least misguided and at worst downright insulting.

Solid meaning that he is not a star.

I just argued this with Hotfresh in another thread. I was for Billups, he was for Felton. I don't think its close. Billups's only issues in my mind was poor shot selection at times especially from 2 pt range where his % is low. And, he does not create enough for his teammates - low assists numbers ...

He is was an excellent defender, and a good guy. He also fit pretty well into the grinding/slow offense in detroit.

come on mrknickshot.. melo is not a star either... there was no doubt that melo was as instrumental to that team as carmelo was... as 3g pointed out, when billups was there and had that nice playoff run, the nuggets went to the wcf... it was done as a team, but lets stop this "melo lead them".. nah, not in this case.... we see what happens to "melo led" teams... billups has a track record... that we know for sure...

callmened wrote:Dont forget that kmart is an expiring contract. So they can trade jim later in the season to upgrade

Why would they trade him? This is their Ray Allen ----when has Kevin had players ie OKC to pay around? Why cant he avg 20-3-2 and 45% as sixth man? Then we have seen Lamb in pre-season and he can play and upgrade the bench as well

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:Dont forget that kmart is an expiring contract. So they can trade jim later in the season to upgrade

Why would they trade him? This is their Ray Allen ----when has Kevin had players ie OKC to pay around? Why cant he avg 20-3-2 and 45% as sixth man? Then we have seen Lamb in pre-season and he can play and upgrade the bench as well

Briggs I find it funny how people say kevin martin sucks.. the guy is a good player. I agree with you, he can be a very good player for them.. I think this was a win for both teams..