3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
BONN WHIle I agree somewhat, A-rod won MVP on a poor team because his numbers were great across the board, he was near the top if not the top in most categories, and his impact on the game was amazing.. he was filling stadiums wherever he went..
It seems as if most on this forum used the carmelo for MVP argument simply because the knicks were playing well, otherwise why would we even discuss carmelo in the MVP race as others have better overall stats....
so while kobe is a better player than carmelo.. that is not even an argument for me, and he is having a great scoring and shooting season, heck even rebounding and assist he is doing very well, his team is still not playing well and they have a lot of talent, even if he feels they are old.. It is hard to justify him as MVP at this point... this point!.. now if the lakers are a playoff team, then that may change.... but so far he is getting a lot of good numbers for himself, but what is it doing for his team? so far this guy has been anything but a leader with his comments.. it seems more divisive..
Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
Agreed and things like... making teammates better, +/-(with consistent units), defensive impact, how a system works when ran around such player(s), oh and LEADERSHIP.... on top of many other things.
Win Shares and Wins Produced would not be at the very top of my criteria.
I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.
I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
Agreed and things like... making teammates better, +/-(with consistent units), defensive impact, how a system works when ran around such player(s), oh and LEADERSHIP.... on top of many other things.
Win Shares and Wins Produced would not be at the very top of my criteria.
Unless you've actually examined the peer-reviewed studies validating the stats, I don't think you're in a good position to make that decision. Just my opinion.
tkf wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
BONN WHIle I agree somewhat, A-rod won MVP on a poor team because his numbers were great across the board, he was near the top if not the top in most categories, and his impact on the game was amazing.. he was filling stadiums wherever he went..
It seems as if most on this forum used the carmelo for MVP argument simply because the knicks were playing well, otherwise why would we even discuss carmelo in the MVP race as others have better overall stats....
so while kobe is a better player than carmelo.. that is not even an argument for me, and he is having a great scoring and shooting season, heck even rebounding and assist he is doing very well, his team is still not playing well and they have a lot of talent, even if he feels they are old.. It is hard to justify him as MVP at this point... this point!.. now if the lakers are a playoff team, then that may change.... but so far he is getting a lot of good numbers for himself, but what is it doing for his team? so far this guy has been anything but a leader with his comments.. it seems more divisive..
Stop it tkf! Stop it 3G4G!
You're not supposed to go against your Somberite brethren. 
OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
That sure came out of left field! No one here is putting Melo down
OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
This thread is 73 pages long no way all 73 pages should be dedicated solely to Melo when discussing MVP candidacy which is the overall flavor of the thread....
In the meantime stare at this...
DAT CP3 even Peter Pan might be in the Scussin
3G4G wrote:OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
This thread is 73 pages long no way all 73 pages should be dedicated solely to Melo when discussing MVP candidacy which is the overall flavor of the thread....
In the meantime stare at this...
DAT CP3 even Peter Pan might be in the Scussin
Steph Curry in the Scussin!!! MVP! MVP! 
Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
Agreed and things like... making teammates better, +/-(with consistent units), defensive impact, how a system works when ran around such player(s), oh and LEADERSHIP.... on top of many other things.
Win Shares and Wins Produced would not be at the very top of my criteria.
Unless you've actually examined the peer-reviewed studies validating the stats, I don't think you're in a good position to make that decision. Just my opinion.
Agreed once again you and I do not know what criteria they are using. We know those who have votes use different criteria every year to make their choice. I didn't say it shouldn't be in the criteria I said not at the Top of it. The formulas leave out a lot to be desired as proven the last couple pages by where players lie in the statistical category. It does not accurately gauge player impact as in the example of Tyson Chandler and Tim Duncan.
Where in this thread you're elevating Kobe with WS and WP citing his numbers and age but ignoring Tim Duncan's numbers at his age and his numbers are great offensively and defensively and the Spurs have a clearly better overall record than the Lakers. So Tim would most certainly, considering other criteria/factors be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race.
Once again let me make this clear to your stubborn self..... Kobe is not Top 5 MVP I did not say Kobe is not an MVP candidate....Big Difference
You're whole stance here is to protect your previous arguments of Kobe in comparison to Melo....cut the agenda out Bonn once and for all.
3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
Agreed and things like... making teammates better, +/-(with consistent units), defensive impact, how a system works when ran around such player(s), oh and LEADERSHIP.... on top of many other things.
Win Shares and Wins Produced would not be at the very top of my criteria.
Unless you've actually examined the peer-reviewed studies validating the stats, I don't think you're in a good position to make that decision. Just my opinion.
Agreed once again you and I do not know what criteria they are using. We know those who have votes use different criteria every year to make their choice. I didn't say it shouldn't be in the criteria I said not at the Top of it. The formulas leave out a lot to be desired as proven the last couple pages by where players lie in the statistical category. It does not accurately gauge player impact as in the example of Tyson Chandler and Tim Duncan.
Where in this thread you're elevating Kobe with WS and WP citing his numbers and age but ignoring Tim Duncan's numbers at his age and his numbers are great offensively and defensively and they have a clearly better overall record. So Tim would most certainly considering other criteria/factors be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race.
Once again so it's clear to your stubborn self Kobe is not Top 5 MVP I did not say Kobe is not an MVP candidate....Big Difference
You're whole stance here is to protect your previous arguments of Kobe in comparison to Melo....cut the agenda out Bonn once and for all.
Chill out man. I support what I said before. If you don't like my view, fine but don't call me a liar.
You keep raising the issue of what criteria the MVP voters will use but I don't care about their criteria. I'm interested in validly assessing players' value, not in how some journalists will vote for the award.
I never cited anyone's age, BTW.
ChuckBuck wrote:tkf wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
BONN WHIle I agree somewhat, A-rod won MVP on a poor team because his numbers were great across the board, he was near the top if not the top in most categories, and his impact on the game was amazing.. he was filling stadiums wherever he went..
It seems as if most on this forum used the carmelo for MVP argument simply because the knicks were playing well, otherwise why would we even discuss carmelo in the MVP race as others have better overall stats....
so while kobe is a better player than carmelo.. that is not even an argument for me, and he is having a great scoring and shooting season, heck even rebounding and assist he is doing very well, his team is still not playing well and they have a lot of talent, even if he feels they are old.. It is hard to justify him as MVP at this point... this point!.. now if the lakers are a playoff team, then that may change.... but so far he is getting a lot of good numbers for himself, but what is it doing for his team? so far this guy has been anything but a leader with his comments.. it seems more divisive..
Stop it tkf! Stop it 3G4G!
You're not supposed to go against your Somberite brethren.
23-10. The edges of the League of Six are starting to fray. Positively hilarious stuff.
OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
+1 OGkush
Somberista codespeak: talking about Kobe is stealth Melo hate.
No there is no cracking of where I stand with Melo. He's at best Top 5 MVP candidate nothing more at this point. Finished 6th a few yrs ago so really no difference for me....until we see the end results.
I mean he's not going to win if things continue as they are. There are 3 players currently clearly ahead of him and about 3 players hovering in the same vicinity as him.
Is Bronn an official SomberMember???
I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make shit up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.
The New York Knicks' Carmelo Anthony and the Houston Rockets' James Harden today were named Eastern and Western Conference Players of the Week, respectively, for games played Monday, Dec. 31 through Sunday, Jan. 6.
Anthony, who topped the league in scoring at 36.0 ppg, led New York to a 2-1 week, including a home victory over the San Antonio Spurs. He bookended the week with a pair of 40-point performances against the Portland Trail Blazers on Jan. 1 and the Orlando Magic on Dec. 5. His 45 points against the Blazers tied this season's single-game high (accomplished three times, twice by Anthony and once by Harden).
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba...
3 for Lebron
2 for Durrant
2 for Carmelo
2 for Harden
1 for Paul
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/awards/...
Anji wrote:Is Bronn an official SomberMember??? I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make shit up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.
IDK. I am the most positive commentator here on Tyson's and Kidd's performances. When they are the topic of discussion, most posters here seem to be in the somber group to me
Bonn1997 wrote:Anji wrote:Is Bronn an official SomberMember??? I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make shit up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.
IDK. I am the most positive commentator here on Tyson's and Kidd's performances. When they are the topic of discussion, most posters here seem to be in the somber group to me
I'm as positive as a peach
jrodmc wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:tkf wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Now Bonn show/prove that the individuals who hold votes for MVP voting use Win Shares and Wins Produce to make their selections?
Huh? I never said they did. They should but I never said they did.
As they should use other advanced stats. Look I'm not debating if Kobe isn't a better player than Melo I agree he is, even this season but Kobe shouldn't be in the Top 5 of MVP voting no matter what criteria should or shouldn't be used.
In all major sports, players from poor teams have gotten MVP votes if not the actual award (like A-Rod). If you feel the MVP needs to be on a very good team, I can respect that choice. Team record confounds the player's contribution with the contributions of his teammates, though. I prefer using an unconfounded assessment - just looking at the player's own performance.
BONN WHIle I agree somewhat, A-rod won MVP on a poor team because his numbers were great across the board, he was near the top if not the top in most categories, and his impact on the game was amazing.. he was filling stadiums wherever he went..
It seems as if most on this forum used the carmelo for MVP argument simply because the knicks were playing well, otherwise why would we even discuss carmelo in the MVP race as others have better overall stats....
so while kobe is a better player than carmelo.. that is not even an argument for me, and he is having a great scoring and shooting season, heck even rebounding and assist he is doing very well, his team is still not playing well and they have a lot of talent, even if he feels they are old.. It is hard to justify him as MVP at this point... this point!.. now if the lakers are a playoff team, then that may change.... but so far he is getting a lot of good numbers for himself, but what is it doing for his team? so far this guy has been anything but a leader with his comments.. it seems more divisive..
Stop it tkf! Stop it 3G4G!
You're not supposed to go against your Somberite brethren.
23-10. The edges of the League of Six are starting to fray. Positively hilarious stuff.
OGkush121 wrote:I used to mind people putting Melo down for no good reason in order to try to make a silly point and go into all kinds of trouble for it, but now it just makes me laugh.I'm just enjoying the ride, Melo's playing amazing basketball and I don't have to look through every nook and crany to try to prove otherwise.
Melo's playing great, the Knicks are playing great.
Problem? well, there shouldn't be one but obviously there is :)
Oh and if you're going to continue to talk about Kobe just make another thread why don't you?
+1 OGkushSomberista codespeak: talking about Kobe is stealth Melo hate.
TAKE OFF the love blinders... if you pay attention the argument against kobe actually helps carmelo.... yikes..
Bonn1997 wrote:Anji wrote:Is Bronn an official SomberMember??? I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make shit up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.
IDK. I am the most positive commentator here on Tyson's and Kidd's performances. When they are the topic of discussion, most posters here seem to be in the somber group to me
I'm a fair guy, Advance stats may not be my cup of tea but I can tell it like it is.
Your post don't seem personal to me at all.
I thought the official term for most of the less positive Knick Fans was "Abused" or "beaten Down". Something like that, they have their own group as well. LOL
Anji wrote:Is Bronn an official SomberMember??? I never thought so, he is a numbers man to me. He doesn't make shit up or change his standards to fit the player like other posters around here.
Actually Bonn is somewhat flip-flopping he wants WS and WP to be heavily weighted so that it makes his argument of Kobe being better than Melo strong meanwhile it weakens the overall standard on which to establish a true and deserving MVP candidate....Bonn is trying to have it both ways.
Take for instance in regards to Kobe the numbers the METRICS the SABERMETRICS prove that when Kobe shoots less, the Lakers win more? So this goes to show that you have use more consideration with the metrics determining player impact and importance but in all honesty you have to cap the criteria.
I'm not sure sure how many variables should be considered but I'm not going say overall record trumps individual numbers or vice versa or any other Metric.
It has to be a consistent compilation of all of them
If you say I flip flop enough times...it still isn't true. I value WS and WP. Flip-flopping would mean that I only sometimes value them but you haven't established that to be the case.
You're presenting a new argument here about Kobe's shot totals in wins and losses. If you have data you want me to take a look at, I will.
