Knicks · O'Conner: Indy, Donnie, Melo, "The Trade", Nuggets, MDA.... (page 6)
Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.
mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Uptown wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.
It's noteworthy that although Melo does have a very good on/off +/-, it's the worst of our 5 starters. All our bench players have really bad +/- #s.The +/- I'm looking at has Melo with a +/- 84 which is not only the highest on the team but ranks in the top 7 on the league. Am I looking at something different that you are? With that said, I'm a big believer in the eye-test and feel that #'s can be misleading. Case and point, Lebron James, clearly the best player in the league and leading candidate to take home another MVP trophy is ranked 38.
I think you are looking at something different. I'm looking at his on/off +/- on 82games.com
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM
Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.
I don't think they are better players per say, but what im saying is that he reduces the amount of responsibility placed on them to produce. Therefor they are able to maximize and be very good in small roles which they are overqualified for rather then us relying on them to be borderline alstars in order to compete. I don't mean Melo is carrying the team making everyone better ala Lebron James. And im not even specifically talking about Melo but in general it goes hand in hand you need that guy that can really produce and rely on in clutch and critical situations.
newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.I don't think they are better players per say, but what im saying is that he reduces the amount of responsibility placed on them to produce. Therefor they are able to maximize and be very good in small roles which they are overqualified for rather then us relying on them to be borderline alstars in order to compete. I don't mean Melo is carrying the team making everyone better ala Lebron James. And im not even specifically talking about Melo but in general it goes hand in hand you need that guy that can really produce and rely on in clutch and critical situations.
I'm open to the possibility of that being the case. Basically Melo is a role player - his role is to take a ton of shots and make sure he hits an adequate percentage. Then you can get away with other guys taking fewer shots.
Bonn1997 wrote:Uptown wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.
It's noteworthy that although Melo does have a very good on/off +/-, it's the worst of our 5 starters. All our bench players have really bad +/- #s.The +/- I'm looking at has Melo with a +/- 84 which is not only the highest on the team but ranks in the top 7 on the league. Am I looking at something different that you are? With that said, I'm a big believer in the eye-test and feel that #'s can be misleading. Case and point, Lebron James, clearly the best player in the league and leading candidate to take home another MVP trophy is ranked 38.
I think you are looking at something different. I'm looking at his on/off +/- on 82games.com
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM
Yes, I was looking at something different. However, the link you put up has Copeland 2nd in +/-.....I get it, stats tell part of a story but I'd rather rely on the eye-test
Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.I don't think they are better players per say, but what im saying is that he reduces the amount of responsibility placed on them to produce. Therefor they are able to maximize and be very good in small roles which they are overqualified for rather then us relying on them to be borderline alstars in order to compete. I don't mean Melo is carrying the team making everyone better ala Lebron James. And im not even specifically talking about Melo but in general it goes hand in hand you need that guy that can really produce and rely on in clutch and critical situations.
I'm open to the possibility of that being the case. Basically Melo is a role player - his role is to take a ton of shots and make sure he hits an adequate percentage. Then you can get away with other guys taking fewer shots.
There is noone else on the team that can be relied on to produce at a high level or put the team on his back in clutch and critical situations. Felton can at times but shouldn't be relied on to do so and be your #1 guy in this situation if you want to win consistently same for Smith. Melo is that guy that is his role. Brewer is effiecient so is Kidd but they aren't going to produce at a high level if given more shots, just because they are efficient with less shots.
newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.I don't think they are better players per say, but what im saying is that he reduces the amount of responsibility placed on them to produce. Therefor they are able to maximize and be very good in small roles which they are overqualified for rather then us relying on them to be borderline alstars in order to compete. I don't mean Melo is carrying the team making everyone better ala Lebron James. And im not even specifically talking about Melo but in general it goes hand in hand you need that guy that can really produce and rely on in clutch and critical situations.
I'm open to the possibility of that being the case. Basically Melo is a role player - his role is to take a ton of shots and make sure he hits an adequate percentage. Then you can get away with other guys taking fewer shots.There is noone else on the team that can be relied on to produce at a high level or put the team on his back in clutch and critical situations. Felton can at times but shouldn't be relied on to do so and be your #1 guy in this situation if you want to win consistently same for Smith. Melo is that guy that is his role. Brewer is effiecient so is Kidd but they aren't going to produce at a high level if given more shots, just because they are efficient with less shots.
Maybe but Melo could still eliminate about 4 forced shots per game and the team would be better off.
holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Forced his way out of Denver in order to play for our New York Knicks. Chances are, Denver misses the playoffs this season. That's what not having a true NBA star will get them.
People seem to have the timing wrong here: The turn around for this franchise coincided with the acquisition of what most successful teams have: highly efficient scorers who do many other things well. It didn't coincide with the arrival of Melo.I agree, but they also go hand in hand. Melo allows the others to have less responsibility. Defenses don't have to key in on Felton or Kidd. Everyone is able to be an option lower then what they can handle at this point in there careers or skill set. Allowing Kidd to be a role player rather then relying on him to save our franchise is the difference from yrs past and now.
Then there is the go to guy in clutch situations aspect. Efficient scorers aren't always efficient when the game is on th line. You need that clutch gene that doesn't fold under pressure and able to hang with the big boys when its crunch time.
Historically, it hasn't been the case that guys have played much better with Melo. Right now, it's 8 games. If JR, Kidd, and Brewer are all having career years (in terms of efficiency) at the end of the season, I'll be open to revising that view. It's not clear to me whether Kidd and Brewer are playing better because of Melo or JR though. JR's taking a few less shots than Melo but hitting at a much better rate and passing much more effectively.I don't think they are better players per say, but what im saying is that he reduces the amount of responsibility placed on them to produce. Therefor they are able to maximize and be very good in small roles which they are overqualified for rather then us relying on them to be borderline alstars in order to compete. I don't mean Melo is carrying the team making everyone better ala Lebron James. And im not even specifically talking about Melo but in general it goes hand in hand you need that guy that can really produce and rely on in clutch and critical situations.
I'm open to the possibility of that being the case. Basically Melo is a role player - his role is to take a ton of shots and make sure he hits an adequate percentage. Then you can get away with other guys taking fewer shots.There is noone else on the team that can be relied on to produce at a high level or put the team on his back in clutch and critical situations. Felton can at times but shouldn't be relied on to do so and be your #1 guy in this situation if you want to win consistently same for Smith. Melo is that guy that is his role. Brewer is effiecient so is Kidd but they aren't going to produce at a high level if given more shots, just because they are efficient with less shots.
Maybe but Melo could still eliminate about 4 forced shots per game and the team would be better off.
He will have to once Shumpert and Amare come back.
foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.
TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
There is no criteria and/or logical conclusions for the jilted soul
mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
Right; you can find lots of volume scorers on teams that aren't successful too.
Efficiency is necessary but not sufficient for team success.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
Right; you can find lots of volume scorers on teams that aren't successful too.
Efficiency is necessary but not sufficient for team success.
Billips won, inefficient, Isiah won, inefficient, Kobe won, inefficient, Ewing should have won, Drexler clould have won, both inefficient, if not for Jordan...There are bigger things at work than efficiency...
mrKnickShot wrote:NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
There is no criteria and/or logical conclusions for the jilted soul
Hate is a terrible thing to waste...your brain on.