Knicks · O'Conner: Indy, Donnie, Melo, "The Trade", Nuggets, MDA.... (page 7)
NUPE wrote:
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.teams.
Weirdly, Lin and Gallo are shooting just as badly as each other:
Lin FG% 34.2 3PT 24.2%
Gallo FG% 35.6 3PT 22.6%
Hmm, While I'm at it, I will undo the trade and add Wilson Chandler to our team:
Wilson Chandler FG% 31.3 3PT 25.0%
Heck, lets go back in time and match Landry Fields offer sheet, and not trade Tony Douglas either:
Tony Douglas: FG% 28.6 3PT 25%
Landry Fields: FG% 20.8 3PT 0%
Yikes, a lot of ex-Knicks are shooting atrociously this year...
holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!
Melo is actually more efficient this year, thus far, than Kidd and Iverson were the years they got to the finals. That is my recollection. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Knicks are in "Win now"mode.
I don't think the expectation is the same.
Also I see Nuggs as a work in progress more so than the Knicks.
Win-Win. I know nobody cares about the Nuggs but if they are happy with their team, then why should we care?
Many laughed at the Pau to lakers deal the Grizz did but it opened up cap space for them to do other things that they could not do if they had Pau.
Grizz could not get out of first round of playoffs and the out look was not great with Pau and his salary.
Might say the same for the Nuggs with Melo, and it was Melo that really wanted out. I thought Melo handled it just fine and Nuggs got value in return to rebuild and Melo got his extension. They played nice and both got out good. They traded Felton for Andre Miller who they were able to keep. Felton came back to knicks.
Its good for all.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
Right; you can find lots of volume scorers on teams that aren't successful too.
Efficiency is necessary but not sufficient for team success.Billips won, inefficient, Isiah won, inefficient, Kobe won, inefficient, Ewing should have won, Drexler clould have won, both inefficient, if not for Jordan...There are bigger things at work than efficiency...
I am not sure how you gauge efficiency.
Billups' PER and TS are off the charts. FG does not say the whole story.
foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.
why shouldn't they be high, we gave up a lot of pieces, picks and flexibility to get him.. we changed the team to suit him while pretty much throwing amare(100 mil man) to the back burner... we better win a ring or this was a complete waste....
I mean we don't have much to rebuild with, we gave that up... what are your expectations?
NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
now he is answering questions for me. I love how I am constantly on your mind...
you are shook bro..
holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!
this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?
sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....
run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..
i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?
smackeddog wrote:NUPE wrote:
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.teams.
Weirdly, Lin and Gallo are shooting just as badly as each other:
Lin FG% 34.2 3PT 24.2%
Gallo FG% 35.6 3PT 22.6%Hmm, While I'm at it, I will undo the trade and add Wilson Chandler to our team:
Wilson Chandler FG% 31.3 3PT 25.0%
Heck, lets go back in time and match Landry Fields offer sheet, and not trade Tony Douglas either:
Tony Douglas: FG% 28.6 3PT 25%
Landry Fields: FG% 20.8 3PT 0%Yikes, a lot of ex-Knicks are shooting atrociously this year...
if is funny how this guy talks for me, yet has never shown where i have said any of those things... he is getting a big creepy the way he follows me around..
holfresh wrote:Not even looking on the numbers, Nash and Mailman were probably two of the most efficient players in NBA history and played on great teams...NEVER WON!!!
that was because of MJ....can't blame them there...
tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
now he is answering questions for me. I love how I am constantly on your mind...
you are shook bro..
You are the guy that retired from realgm in a storm of tears claiming you could never be reasonable in regards to the Knicks again. LMAO! At least you are sticking to your statement regarding lack to ability to be reasonable.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
Right; you can find lots of volume scorers on teams that aren't successful too.
Efficiency is necessary but not sufficient for team success.Billips won, inefficient, Isiah won, inefficient, Kobe won, inefficient, Ewing should have won, Drexler clould have won, both inefficient, if not for Jordan...There are bigger things at work than efficiency...
Those players either were not inefficient or had many efficient teammates compensating for them.
Don't forget - efficiency = both TS% and assist:turnover ratio
NUPE wrote:tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
now he is answering questions for me. I love how I am constantly on your mind...
you are shook bro..
You are the guy that retired from realgm in a storm of tears claiming you could never be reasonable in regards to the Knicks again. LMAO! At least you are sticking to your statement regarding lack to ability to be reasonable.
you remind me of one of the jilted HS girls I dumped.... bebra is that you?
dude, stop baiting, stop answering for me, stop lying about things I said.. it is getting tired..
I really don't want to ask you about this again..
tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
now he is answering questions for me. I love how I am constantly on your mind...
you are shook bro..
You are the guy that retired from realgm in a storm of tears claiming you could never be reasonable in regards to the Knicks again. LMAO! At least you are sticking to your statement regarding lack to ability to be reasonable.
you remind me of one of the jilted HS girls I dumped.... bebra is that you?
dude, stop baiting, stop answering for me, stop lying about things I said.. it is getting tired..
I really don't want to ask you about this again..
This guys knows I am right about his double standards and skewed criteria for success so has opted for ad hominem attacks. As always, you are as transparent as a windshield.
You claim Knicks need to win a championship to be credible. However, Denver, a team you believe to be better than the Knicks, does not need to win a championship to be credible. Talk about rubbish and bias. LMAO!!!!!!
NUPE wrote:tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:tkf wrote:NUPE wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.TKF's expectations and criteria for success are not uniform from team to team and that is why I find him to be a damn troll and joke.
Lin can shoot 35% on 10 ppg and TKF will claim Lins play is fine and/or good. Melo can shoot 44% on 25 ppg and TKF will claim Melo sucks and has played poorly.
Denver is supposedly one of the best teams in the West according to TKF but sub. .500 or at .500. The Knicks are not good and have a lot to prove to TKF despite being 7 - 1 and literally dominating teams.
Denver made the playoffs and lost in first round and are on the right track according to TKF. NYK made the playoffs and lost in first round and suck according to TKF.
I am all for people having their opinions and disliking the Knicks roster. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hate when people apply extreme criteria to the NYK and the opposite to other teams.
now he is answering questions for me. I love how I am constantly on your mind...
you are shook bro..
You are the guy that retired from realgm in a storm of tears claiming you could never be reasonable in regards to the Knicks again. LMAO! At least you are sticking to your statement regarding lack to ability to be reasonable.
you remind me of one of the jilted HS girls I dumped.... bebra is that you?
dude, stop baiting, stop answering for me, stop lying about things I said.. it is getting tired..
I really don't want to ask you about this again..
This guys knows I am right about his double standards and skewed criteria for success so has opted for ad hominem attacks. As always, you are as transparent as a windshield.You claim Knicks need to win a championship to be credible. However, Denver, a team you believe to be better than the Knicks, does not need to win a championship to be credible. Talk about rubbish and bias. LMAO!!!!!!
dude are you really that dense... denver doesn't need to win anything, they didn't trade away their future.... they don't have to justify getting rid of carmelo, he wanted to leave, they just beat the knicks over the head while sending him on his way.... we are the one's that mort. the future, we have to pay the hefty bill.. denver doesn't....
this is just too much for you to see because, well it may be too far over your head.. and i understand that. which is why I pretty much ignore your post.. try doing the same if you think i am biased and talk rubbish...ok?
tkf wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.why shouldn't they be high, we gave up a lot of pieces, picks and flexibility to get him.. we changed the team to suit him while pretty much throwing amare(100 mil man) to the back burner... we better win a ring or this was a complete waste....
I mean we don't have much to rebuild with, we gave that up... what are your expectations?
My expectations are to compete for a division title and get to the conference championship. It will be extremely difficult to beat the Heat if they are clicking. My expectations for the team prior to Melo were much lower. Compete on a night in and night out basis and get to the playoffs. I do not believe that longer term rebuilding efforts are effective any longer in the NBA given the new CBA. Teams either need to get lucky in the lottery or continually reload after 2-3 years.
I'm not sure why you would coin the Melo move as a waste without a championship. With or without the trade a championship is equally difficult and unlikely as long as Lebron leads the way. Further, the Knicks will have cap space after this run in 3 years. I like what I see in Grunwald so far and trust he will manage the roster appropriately. As long as the team is making money and competitive, Dolan will stay in check.
foosballnick wrote:tkf wrote:foosballnick wrote:tkf,You've mentioned a couple point in this thread that I am curious about.
One is that the Knicks will have to win a championship to justify the Melo trade. Just wondering why the expectations are so high? Knicks have not won in over 40 years, but in order for Melo to earn your respect this is what he must do? Even though you label him as only a "good" player in another thread. Do you feel that the prior to the Melo trade the roster was on it's way to a ship?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future? I don't see them getting out of the First or second round in the West with this roster and don't see the former Knick pieces making significant contributions towards a ship.why shouldn't they be high, we gave up a lot of pieces, picks and flexibility to get him.. we changed the team to suit him while pretty much throwing amare(100 mil man) to the back burner... we better win a ring or this was a complete waste....
I mean we don't have much to rebuild with, we gave that up... what are your expectations?
My expectations are to compete for a division title and get to the conference championship. It will be extremely difficult to beat the Heat if they are clicking. My expectations for the team prior to Melo were much lower. Compete on a night in and night out basis and get to the playoffs. I do not believe that longer term rebuilding efforts are effective any longer in the NBA given the new CBA. Teams either need to get lucky in the lottery or continually reload after 2-3 years.I'm not sure why you would coin the Melo move as a waste without a championship. With or without the trade a championship is equally difficult and unlikely as long as Lebron leads the way. Further, the Knicks will have cap space after this run in 3 years. I like what I see in Grunwald so far and trust he will manage the roster appropriately. As long as the team is making money and competitive, Dolan will stay in check.
i think teams like the rockets, and thunder will dissagree... but to address your point, if you are not lucky in the lottery, how do you reload without the assets and picks to do so? if you are going to trade all of your flexibilty for one guy he better be "that guy", that foundation piece.. I just don't see carmelo as that guy and looking at your expectations I don't think you do as well.. this is not horse shoe.. you don't play to get close, you play to win...Are you telling me that the prior teas was never going to make any more moves?
Second is that you indicated that the Nuggets are fine as constructed. Can you elaborate on how you see them finishing In the near future?
sorry i didn't answer this before... Denver is young, they have picks, (our picks) very good youth and flexibility... they are a playoff team, and i can see them in the WCF over the next year or so, and at that point they can re-evaluate their talent, make moves or just add on with the picks they have.. their cap situation at the end of 14/15 season is very good, they will be able to go after more players... they are in very good shape... I mean they were not getting out of the first round with carmelo, i think even you can agree with that...
Further, the Knicks will have cap space after this run in 3 years.
even if that is the case, we won't have replenished any young talent.. just think in 2 years, guys like kyrie evans, jrue holliday, rondo, those guys who are still very young now will only be getting better, their teams will be adding pieces growing, we won't be doing that, we will almost be in rebuild mode with no young players(other than shump) having developed.... we may be behind those teams by then..
lets look at this... at the end of the 14/15 year, lets say we don't keep anyone not under contract, so that will leave us felton, shump and novak... feel good about buidling with that.. at least had we kept lin we can say, ok, we now have a foundation with lin and shump.. felton will be on the other side of 30 by then and he is just a average guard now... and look a this.. we will have our pick this year... most feel we will be good, so that is a late pick.. fine..
we have no pick next year in 2014, we also have no second round pick in 2013
we have our pick in 2015, and come 2016, the year in which we might not be as good depending if we are trying to rebuild as you stated since we will have cap room, denver has the right to swap, so if we are not good, they take our pick.. again, how do you rebuild that way.. you better hope we hit the free agent jackpot... and so far, we have yet to do that..
mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:holfresh wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Hotfresh,Its rare that you see inefficient winners. Kobe was not too efficient but he did many other things that covered that up. Iverson got to the finals and was horribly inefficient.
Overall, it's tough to find inefficient winners and there is a reason for that.
Having said that, you still need the eyeball test to see and view the other aspects of the game that are shielded by stats.
Precisely my point...Championships are won by the play of a team and not by the efficiency of an individual...There are other aspect of the game that has to be happening for u to be successful...Focus on efficiency doesn't tell the complete story...How does a defense figure into being efficient???..We all know you aren't winning without it...Knicks are playing great ball and winning..No rings yet but who is efficient???...U can see how they are winning tho...
Still, you can't find/name too many inefficient championship player/teams.
But I can find lots teams/players that are efficient who aren't Champions..
Right; you can find lots of volume scorers on teams that aren't successful too.
Efficiency is necessary but not sufficient for team success.Billips won, inefficient, Isiah won, inefficient, Kobe won, inefficient, Ewing should have won, Drexler clould have won, both inefficient, if not for Jordan...There are bigger things at work than efficiency...
I am not sure how you gauge efficiency.
Billups' PER and TS are off the charts. FG does not say the whole story.
They add FT to his FG...Which is why I don't take these numbers seriously..So a guy who shoots well from the line tends to trend higher...That's not efficient in my eyes...But hey, run with it...