Knicks · Does Anyone Appreciate How Well Raymond Felton Is Playing? (page 15)

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:ALso, let's not cherry pick show the list for all pgs.

you use "cherry picking" as a critique because you don't want to believe what i am saying. if you don't trust my insights or research you can look at basketball-reference.com for each point guard and divide their usage rate by their assist rate and come up with the numbers.

NO I use cherry pick because I do not know if you are telling the whole story. It has nothing about not wanting to believe its about is this he giving me an accurate viewpoint for me to gain understanding.

i have no agenda here. i want the knicks to win and the knicks to excel. the whole story is that felton falls into the same statistical range as other nba guards who failed to win during their careers.

i'll give you an example of what i mean:

isiah thomas. i never liked his game and think he is overrated... here are his numbers

0.67:1 usg/ast
51.6TS%
10 assists per game, and i am throwing out his worst season in this category which was his last so that he reaches the magic number 10

the first two categories place him in the failure range while the last redeems him to a certain extent.

his backcourt companion was joe dumars, a player who i feel was the secret to the pistons success, and vastly underrated:

1.02 usg/ast
55.4TS%
4.5 apg

HOWEVER FOR THEIR CHAMPIONSHIP SEASONS HERE ARE THE NUMBERS:

1989

thomas 0.72:1
52.8TS%
8.3 apg

dumars 0.89:1
57.1TS%
5.7 apg finals mvp

notice how dumars exceeds his career averages as the pistons handle an old and tired showtime laker squad after the hacking to death of jordan

1990

thomas 0.66:1
51TS%
9.4 apg

dumars 1.01:1
55.5TS%
4.9 apg

the numbers are not as good here but lets remember they crushed an overmatched trailblazer squad after hacking to death of jordan

the moral of the story is that felton is clearly inadequate and the knicks absolutely rely on jason kidd to take up beaucoup slack.

Did you just make a case that numbers don't tell the whole story

i gave you an example of a backcourt tandem that required the shooting guard role to supply a good deal of the orchestrating. the point guard in question, thomas, had a low TS% and mediocre orchestrating skills that were offset by a decent APG. the numbers here convey what my impression of him was at the time, which is an overrated point guard. i never was a big fan of his game. i was a huge fan of dumars's game and again his numbers back this up.

in our case the point guard has an even lower TS% and worse than mediocre orchestrating skills, and a crappy APG average. he desperately needs a backcourt mate who can take up the great deal of slack.

numbers tell quite a lot. that said, historically i have never been much of a stat guy, preferring to jude players by the eye test. but since my eye test judgements often clash with others, i have taken it upon myself to look at statistics to see if they illuminate and confirm my impressions.

and they do.

Don't you need both (stats and eyes) to get the full picture?

I am a believer in both. That is why you still need scouts.

Nobody said Felton is the best PG... or even a 'pure PG'. Although to correlate some advanced stat with him having some inability to facilitate the offense is nonsense. If every set was Felton having to create shots for others his stats would reflect that except that Felton doesn't have to do that to be effective as the Knicks PG or to facilitate the offense.

It also is the reason why the Knicks offense has been so difficult to defend. Defenses can't key on stopping Felton like they were able to in his first stint in NY when Mike O'Antonio had no other set except for the Felton-Amar'e p&r. Now Felton brings the ball up and can do so many different things including passing it off to another player who can play like a PG. This is an advantage, not a disadvantage as some are trying to imply.

mrKnickShot wrote:dk,

Don't you need both (stats and eyes) to get the full picture?

I am a believer in both. That is why you still need scouts.

absolutely without question you need both. if a scout is worth his salary he is looking at the player from the same point of view as walt frazier maps out in his book the game within the game.

smackeddog wrote:Iannazzone just tweeted Felton now has a bone bruise in BOTH hands- will continue to play. Ouch!

"Both of my hands are messed up, but whatever. I'm still playing."

misterearl wrote:Does Anyone Appreciate How Well Raymond Felton Is Playing?

Lately, not so much.

Anyone find that a bit scary considering how awful his shot attempts are?

with lin, poison pill and all, he will get better. too bad the knicks were not willing to invest instead of stop-gapping-- but the move is clearly evidence of the knicks in win-now mode.

One game doesn't make a season, the team play as a whole has been better than it has been in decades, TS WS PcP stats don't tell that.

mrKnickShot wrote:Felton is 12th in the league in shot attempts.

Anyone find that a bit scary considering how awful his shot attempts are?

30% of his shots have come in 5 games were Melo has been out. How scary is it if our best player doesn't play and our offense is awful without him.

mrKnickShot wrote:Felton is 12th in the league in shot attempts.

Anyone find that a bit scary considering how awful his shot attempts are?

ShellTopAdidas wrote:Feltons not making me forget about Lin like he said he would Thats for sure.

Raymond Felton never said that

And really, wouldn't you much rather be watching a .500 team in the Southwest with an unstoppable bearded wonderchild? And I personally think Kevin McHale is a basketball genius! Just ask Danny Ainge!

Oh Jeremy, we miss you so!

NYKBocker wrote:Felton is most effective when he plays within his limitations. He gets in trouble when he starts taking over games. Against the Rockets, he should have run more PnR. Also, when somebody is hot, he tends to not give them the ball back. Like Clyde said in the broadcast, the PG has to know who has the hot hand.

There was a troubling sequence in the first quarter when Mike Woodson barked orders to Felton and Felton barked back. Either the Knicks have the freedom to express themselves or Mike Woodson will be reigning in Felton's minutes to make a point.

Pablo Prigioni could sense an opportunity and played with aggression in the fourth quarter, albeit garbage time. Once he solves his hesitation, Prigi Smalls will gain quality minutes.

Chris Copeland is a scoring machine.

Onward.

misterearl wrote:Absolutely

NYKBocker wrote:Felton is most effective when he plays within his limitations. He gets in trouble when he starts taking over games. Against the Rockets, he should have run more PnR. Also, when somebody is hot, he tends to not give them the ball back. Like Clyde said in the broadcast, the PG has to know who has the hot hand.

There was a troubling sequence in the first quarter when Mike Woodson barked orders to Felton and Felton barked back. Either the Knicks have the freedom to express themselves or Mike Woodson will be reigning in Felton's minutes to make a point.

Pablo Prigioni could sense an opportunity and played with aggression in the fourth quarter, albeit garbage time. Once he solves his hesitation, Prigi Smalls will gain quality minutes.

Chris Copeland is a scoring machine.

Onward.

Prigi Smalls played a little out of control... but I'd rather see that at this point than how apprehensive he was at the start of the year. I think he's going to come up huge by the time it really matters

SupremeCommander wrote:
Prigi Smalls played a little out of control... but I'd rather see that at this point than how apprehensive he was at the start of the year. I think he's going to come up huge by the time it really matters

Supreme - one of the great subplots of this memorable season will be the bond between Prigi Smalls and Amar'e on the Sheed Shiftline.

Once Camby returns, our rebounding takes a miraculous turn for the better.

NYKBocker wrote:Felton is most effective when he plays within his limitations. He gets in trouble when he starts taking over games. Against the Rockets, he should have run more PnR. Also, when somebody is hot, he tends to not give them the ball back. Like Clyde said in the broadcast, the PG has to know who has the hot hand.

Yeah what's up with that? It seemed to really irritate Clyde cause he said they were "freezing Copeland out" more than once.