"
which came first, Steve Nash's court vision or Amar'e Stoudemire's ability to catch and jump out of the gym?"
smackeddog wrote:Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
smackeddog - there are moments that your ability to frame a discussion are clearer than Amare's new goggles.
By the time Ray Felton returns, hopefully Mr. Stoudemire will have regained his timing, refined his game conditioning, subtracted some ego and added an appetite for rebounding.
misterearl wrote:"which came first, Steve Nash's court vision or Amar'e Stoudemire's ability to catch and jump out of the gym?"
smackeddog wrote:Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
smackeddog - there are moments that your ability to frame a discussion are clearer than Amare's new goggles.
By the time Ray Felton returns, hopefully Mr. Stoudemire will have regained his timing, refined his game conditioning, subtracted some ego and added an appetite for rebounding.
Talking points aside.
Can the anserman explain how Nash gets his Amare'less team to the WCF (since he "jumped" out of the Gym and into the hospital")?
smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
I was about to ask that too.
Felton isn't outstanding in any area, I like him but I know he's a medicore PG. But that's all you need (look at PGs on chamionship teams the past decade- you don't need an elite player at that position)- he's kind of like a Chris Childs or a Charlie Ward or Mike Conley, but unlike the first two he is capable of putting up monster numbers once in a while (and also some stinkers too- he's inconsistent).
For $3mil-$4mil per season he's a great deal- there was no one else available for that who is better than him (once Lin had invoked Dolan's fury)
smackeddog wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
I was about to ask that too.
Felton isn't outstanding in any area, I like him but I know he's a medicore PG. But that's all you need (look at PGs on chamionship teams the past decade- you don't need an elite player at that position)- he's kind of like a Chris Childs or a Charlie Ward or Mike Conley, but unlike the first two he is capable of putting up monster numbers once in a while (and also some stinkers too- he's inconsistent).
For $3mil-$4mil per season he's a great deal- there was no one else available for that who is better than him (once Lin had invoked Dolan's fury)
In the last 20 years, what teams won without a above average PG (or at least an efficient one)?
Lakers / triangle does not count since it does/did not require a true PG.
Miami, Lebron is the PG (we all know that)
Dallas may be the only example but they had many guards who were serviceable.
mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
In the past few years, many were. I can list them if you want but it shouldn't be too hard to find good PGs on salaries around or less than $18 mil for 4 yrs. Dolan put off the task of getting a serviceable PG until after giving max contracts to Amare and Melo and trading away tons of picks. So that's a big part of the problem.
mrKnickShot wrote:
In the last 20 years, what teams won without a above average PG (or at least an efficient one)?Lakers / triangle does not count since it does/did not require a true PG.
Miami, Lebron is the PG (we all know that)
Dallas may be the only example but they had many guards who were serviceable.
What teams did have a great PG? I don't agree with you saying, well those teams didn't need one because thats kind of my point. Lakers didn't, Miami didn't, Bulls didn't, heck when Boston won, Rondo wasn't at an elite level back then. mavs didn't, Bulls didn't, neither did the Rockets. Only team I can think of is the Spurs.
For all the talk of elite PG, none of them have won championships in recent times (which is odd).
Bonn1997 wrote:If you don't care about shooting percentage, if you think the difference between 39% and 50% shooting has no impact on a team, then we are not going to have any meaningful discussion.I do agree that one of the weaknesses of the design of the team is the lack of players that can penetrate. We need someone who can penetrate and convert better than 39% of his shots.
Well if u were a fair arbiter, you point out that his shooting percentage prior to his hand injuries was 43% then dived to 39% after he hurt both hands ..But Im sure u aren't interested in cause and effect..Just the numbers baby!!!
Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
In the past few years, many were. I can list them if you want but it shouldn't be too hard to find good PGs on salaries around or less than $18 mil for 4 yrs. Dolan put off the task of getting a serviceable PG until after giving max contracts to Amare and Melo and trading away tons of picks. So that's a big part of the problem.
I can't think of any and I am searching. Post them if you have the time.
smackeddog wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:
In the last 20 years, what teams won without a above average PG (or at least an efficient one)?Lakers / triangle does not count since it does/did not require a true PG.
Miami, Lebron is the PG (we all know that)
Dallas may be the only example but they had many guards who were serviceable.
What teams did have a great PG? I don't agree with you saying, well those teams didn't need one because thats kind of my point. Lakers didn't, Miami didn't, Bulls didn't, heck when Boston won, Rondo wasn't at an elite level back then. mavs didn't, Bulls didn't, neither did the Rockets. Only team I can think of is the Spurs.
For all the talk of elite PG, none of them have won championships in recent times (which is odd).
True, an elite PG in their prime hasn't won in ages.
Even when Kidd won, he wasn't close to JKidd of the Nets. Last elite PG I can think of that won was maybe Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker. The rest won without an elite PG.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:If you don't care about shooting percentage, if you think the difference between 39% and 50% shooting has no impact on a team, then we are not going to have any meaningful discussion.I do agree that one of the weaknesses of the design of the team is the lack of players that can penetrate. We need someone who can penetrate and convert better than 39% of his shots.
Well if u were a fair arbiter, you point out that his shooting percentage prior to his hand injuries was 43% then dived to 39% after he hurt both hands ..But Im sure u aren't interested in cause and effect..Just the numbers baby!!!
Holfresh defines fairness!
I believe the fairest thing to do is go with his career #s and say 41% - so you can replace the 39 with 41 above.
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
In the past few years, many were. I can list them if you want but it shouldn't be too hard to find good PGs on salaries around or less than $18 mil for 4 yrs. Dolan put off the task of getting a serviceable PG until after giving max contracts to Amare and Melo and trading away tons of picks. So that's a big part of the problem.
I can't think of any and I am searching. Post them if you have the time.
This is not a complete list - I've only looked through a few teams' payrolls. Here are players who are better bargains (because they make about the same and are much better and/or make much less but are not significantly worse)
OJ Mayo
Jason Terry
Kyle Lowry
Chris Duhon
Kirk Hinrich
Honestly, I'm not convinced Felton is better than signing 2 or 3 league min PGs (like Farmar). That depth would help us if any one got injured and better protect Kidd for the playoffs.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
In the past few years, many were. I can list them if you want but it shouldn't be too hard to find good PGs on salaries around or less than $18 mil for 4 yrs. Dolan put off the task of getting a serviceable PG until after giving max contracts to Amare and Melo and trading away tons of picks. So that's a big part of the problem.
I can't think of any and I am searching. Post them if you have the time.
This is not a complete list - I've only looked through a few teams' payrolls. Here are players who are better bargains (because they make about the same and are much better and/or make much less but are not significantly worse)
OJ Mayo
Jason Terry
Kyle Lowry
Chris Duhon
Kirk Hinrich
Honestly, I'm not convinced Felton is better than signing 2 or 3 league min PGs (like Farmar). That depth would help us if any one got injured and better protect Kidd for the playoffs.
However, I've been clear that I would have matched Lin's offer.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:My ideal PG on offense is someone like Steve Nash - very talented but does not take bad shots. Unlike Felton, Nash is physically overmatched most nights (in terms of both speed and strength) but still manages to shoot 50% and get double digit assists. I'm not expecting Felton to become Steve Nash but Nash should be the player he (and PGs throughout the league in general) model their game after.
Bolded since several missed it the first time
Sorry, I've lost track of the argument now- how come Nash gets praise because you're focusing exclusively on his strong points and ignoring his liabilities, but Felton is getting judged on his weak points which are being exclusively focused on?
Besides which, Felton critics, it isn't even about what PG is better than Felton, but rather which PG is better than Felton and is actually attainable with no cap space and only the Mini MLE- good luck!
If you have weaknesses but compensate for them by being outstanding in other areas, that's fine. What is Felton outstanding at?
On your second point, a while ago, I listed many PGs making less than $18 mil over 4 years who would have been better deals than Felton was.
who were attainable or were just in this range?
In the past few years, many were. I can list them if you want but it shouldn't be too hard to find good PGs on salaries around or less than $18 mil for 4 yrs. Dolan put off the task of getting a serviceable PG until after giving max contracts to Amare and Melo and trading away tons of picks. So that's a big part of the problem.
I can't think of any and I am searching. Post them if you have the time.
This is not a complete list - I've only looked through a few teams' payrolls. Here are players who are better bargains (because they make about the same and are much better and/or make much less but are not significantly worse)
OJ Mayo
Jason Terry
Kyle Lowry
Chris Duhon
Kirk Hinrich
Honestly, I'm not convinced Felton is better than signing 2 or 3 league min PGs (like Farmar). That depth would help us if any one got injured and better protect Kidd for the playoffs.
on that list I will give you Kirk but Mayo and Terry are 2s and Lowery makes sightly more per year. Also, I am not sure Kirk is a high pnr guy but ok. Duhan- lol.
Bonn1997 wrote:
OJ Mayo
Jason Terry
Kyle Lowry
Chris Duhon
Kirk Hinrich
Ha ha- you are just trying to wind him up now! I would have loved to have got Lowry (wish we could have traded Lin for him), but Hinrich (have you seen him play the last couple of seasons?)?! Duhon?!?!- there is no way you're being serious!
OJ Mayo isn't even a PG! Neither is Jason Terry at this point (2 assists per game).
Kirk numbers this year.
2012-13 Regular Season
GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7
I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember. 
Again, I look at wins produced and win shares. I don't think it's valuable to cherry pick one stat like PPG or to pick stats that are confounded with mpg (any per game stat).
If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.
Bonn1997 wrote:If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...
On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.
I used to prefer it when you were simply making sniping comments the past few years- when did you embrace sybermetrics? (I don't even know how you spell the word!)
When I learned how well validated they were
