Knicks · Jason Kidd is a PG or SG? And how the effect's on our DEF/ROSTER (page 1)

In my opinion, today's Jason Kidd, is a SG that has PG qualities/skills, but doesn't have the physical abilities to consistently play the PG due to his age
Yes, I think he can play PG on some nights but it would be much tougher on him, his body, and SG would be to his advantage.
Depending on who he has to defend with the match ups for our opponents and who he is playing together with on our squad, it would dictate how much energy he has to exert
Unfortunately, we do not have a backup PG, something I seriously think we should address with Felton out possibly a month.

At his age, I think Kidd playing many minutes in general would be bad for him to finish games.
What makes it worse is that Felton is out and he has to play the PG and DEFEND the PG.
He is just asked to do too much and Pablo is closer to a 3rd string PG than a back up, also without the ability to penetrate, quickness, etc.....

I think Kidd can play SOME minutes at PG but mainly at SG to preserve his legs and more importantly, his health for the post season.
It would affect his shot, DEF, and overall performance, as he should not asked to do what he did 10 years ago.

With all the injuries, I think Kidd is just being asked and is trying to do too much, we saw how he ran out of gas in the final minutes of the heart break loss.
If Felton continues to stay out, we have to find a way to keep Kidd more efficiently, and not have too much duties/minutes.
It doesn't help that Melo is also out of the lineup, he plays some point/forward as well, in addition to spreading the floor, our post up option, and having our opponents DEF focused on stopping Melo first.

With that said, we don't have a player that has that same respect that Kidd has and has the ability and IQ to facilitate for the team.
We have to bring back the attention and focus on DEFENSE, especially since Camby looks like he can give us quality minutes with Tyson resting.

With our injuries, we are not going to be very pretty on some nights, and be flat out horrible on others offensively

BUT

OUR DEFENSE must always be there as our #1 PRIORITY along with our PRIDE

I think somewhere along the line, we loss focus and concentrated on shooting 3pter's, and movement off the ball as options, most importantly, forgetting what Woodson's philosophy is built on.

TEAM DEFENSE starts with the abilities of our players themselves and their abilities

For instance, if we have a lockdown defenders in multiple position, it would allow us to help each other much more, while being effective and efficient.
Speed/Quickness, being able to stay in front of our opponents, is probably more important than SIZE in today's NBA game

While we do not have the 2nd shot blocker/defender that can team up with Tyson Chandler at the F spot to allow the help DEF/SHOT BLOCKING to come elsewhere makes us less predicable
Tyson Chandler himself, is not a GREAT shot blocker, he is a SMART DEFENDER, but he is not near what a player like Noah brings.
It would be great to have another defensive elite PF/C shot blocker like a Ibaka, that can team up with Chandler and be able to spread the floor.

Adding a PG, consistent SF production, and a PF gives us the versatility and depth we need defensively to allow us to alter our defensive sets/strategies/philosophies vs different teams

Problem is mostly, these type of player do not have the abilty to spread the floor and work offensively.
Unfortunately, we do not have this type of player like a AK47, JJ, even Amir Johnson/Ed Davis, that can be used in different matchup's situations to change our DEFENSIVE abilities/philosophy with the extra shot blocker.

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Other notes
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Rasheed Wallace at his age is no longer mobile/quick enough to play the PF defensively consistently.
Same for Kurt Thomas, Amare, and unless Camby can turn 10 years back

Novak and Copeland both do not have the ability to defend MOST small forwards, especially starters.
They both have better chances at defending the PF than any other position.
Copeland might even be better off defending the C on some nights

This was why Houston was able to take advantage of us, they are just a bad match up for us because we cannot defend too many players on their roster.
We have problems because we needed help to easily for each position, vs

1)Harden
2) Lin
3) Chandler Parsons

All 3 can penetrate, handle the ball, and can hit the 3pter

While Tyson Chandler is the only one that can put a body on Omar Osik, especially when he rolls.

4) Osik

5) whoever is in, is a shooter, so the man defending him cheats, he will have a open look

Basically, Kidd is our best SG but he is also our best PG

Matchups
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We need balance and the least amount of help needed each possession, requiring help too easily vs multiple match ups kills our energy, and creates good looks for our opponents.
Along with deception to hide our schemes and to change/alter our defense with different teams, matchup's, our unit on the floor, and situations....

PG
======

Putting Jason Kidd at the PG is a mismatch against us
Felton even has problems defending PG's, he would probably also do better on SG's with his strength and speed/quickness advantage.
Our best defender is Iman Shumpert if healthy on this position, if possible even put JR Smith to put pressure on this position
His ability to create HAVOC, every other position plays the passing lanes very well, so if Iman returns to his former self, it would allow us to dictate our DEF and focus much better

SG
=======

Jason Kidd can defend most SG's but putting him on SG's that can shoot and penetrate/handle the ball is a tough match up
However, this is the best position for Kidd to play effectively and efficiently, as the 2nd ball handler/spot up shooter, and we cannot worry about the % of SG's that Kidd cannot defend

JR Smith currently is our best defender at the G/F position

SF
======

This is the position that we have been very inconsistent in since Brewer's injury
We need consistency and we need it to come from someone outside of JR Smith/Melo because they need their stamina to focus on other responsibilities, including scoring, facilitating

PF
======

Melo at the PF, on some nights, requires help defensively, but he is quicker than most PF that have the ability to bang him, which is fine if he every other position can more or less hold their own. But believe it or not, his DEF actually has excelled since playing the PF position because Melo is a good rebounder, and is very strong. When he defends the SF, many times in the past, he likes to cheat and go for the RB, leaving a man open that has the ability to hit the wide open shot.

Center
========

Tyson Chandler, when he helps as one of our guys get beat, NO ONE has the ability to defend his man.
Melo at the PF gives us many advantages but this is one of our negatives that we just have to learn to adapt to, but have to fix for situation lineups

Amare, at least last year, not only could not hold his own, but required help, and does not put himself in position to help back Tyson Chandler when he helps him or another....
Physically, he is much slower and not mobile at all vs his past seasons, Mentally, he is not smart or react quick enough defensively and to put himself in rebounding/defensive position with timely cuts.
Melo at the PF, DEFENSIVELY does not get enough credit for what he brings to the team, along with the effort and top shape he has brought this year.

What with the all the big fonts lately. they hurt my eyes

gunsnewing wrote:What with the all the big fonts lately. they hurt my eyes

HoPe
ThIs
HeLpS!

Jason Kidd is an Assistant Coach with a uniform. Don't get it twisted.

RonRon wrote:
This was why Houston was able to take advantage of us, they are just a bad match up for us because we cannot defend too many players on their roster.
We have problems because we needed help to easily for each position, vs

1)Harden
2) Lin
3) Chandler Parsons

All 3 can penetrate, handle the ball, and can hit the 3pter

While Tyson Chandler is the only one that can put a body on Omar Osik, especially when he rolls.

4) Osik

5) whoever is in, is a shooter, so the man defending him cheats, he will have a open look

Houston does not concern me. OKC does.

Ibaka, Perkins and Durant will challenge every ounce of competitive fire from Chandler, Melo and Brewer. Collison and Thabeet. Sheed and Amare.

Whoa.

I think the Best around line up we can go with is Felton,JR,Melo&TC.

Depending on how the season progresses maybe Shumps can be in there, but right now Kidd is there. Not too many teams going to be able to handle a Felton,Shumps,JR perimeter though.

I'm not down with strict 'positions', they're so 20th century.

I'm down with loose positions, like Guard and Forward, so Kidd is a guard and how he fits with the rest of the team, this is on him and the coach,

We're in the 21st century now, we're living la vida loca, to hell with Point Guards and Shooting Guards and Power Forwards and Small ones,

I just feel that strict positions impose limiting beliefs on the players, and you gotta play without limits, you gotta be limitless like in the movie,

Only then can our Knicks reach full potential, so I will FROM THIS DAY ON refuse to argue with anyone about which position should Amar'e play or which position will Melo play or which position is Kidd?

misterearl wrote:Jason Kidd is an Assistant Coach with a uniform. Don't get it twisted.

Exactly. I can't wait for him to team up with Shump. In a perfect world, Kidd would be playing 15 to 20 minutes a night until the playoffs. Unfortunately, we've gone through an injury spell and Kidd has had to step up. But the guy is still solid defensively against wing player and he still knows how to control pace. As long as he can hit the three and pass in the halfcourt he'll be fine. It really doesn't matter where you list Kidd at this point, as long as it's understood that he can't guard points. Heck, Magic still played point guard on the Laker while Byron Scott defended the other team's point guard...I guess what I'm really trying to say is Happy New Year and I hope you all get laid tonight. Pregaming baby!

interesting take on position-less basketball.

of course the other side of this position-less basketball theory is that hybrid players or tweeners have taken over the nba in the last 12-15 years. whether this is a good or bad thing for the game is moot since these are the facts on the ground.

and then there has been the advent of advanced statistics that reveal a good deal about the true effectiveness of a player and how he may contribute to winning over and above the traditional boxscore and stat sheet.

dk7th wrote:interesting take on position-less basketball.

of course the other side of this position-less basketball theory is that hybrid players or tweeners have taken over the nba in the last 12-15 years. whether this is a good or bad thing for the game is moot since these are the facts on the ground.

and then there has been the advent of advanced statistics that reveal a good deal about the true effectiveness of a player and how he may contribute to winning over and above the traditional boxscore and stat sheet.

But some advance statistics are still using old models of position basketball which gives more credits to a certain position than others.

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:interesting take on position-less basketball.

of course the other side of this position-less basketball theory is that hybrid players or tweeners have taken over the nba in the last 12-15 years. whether this is a good or bad thing for the game is moot since these are the facts on the ground.

and then there has been the advent of advanced statistics that reveal a good deal about the true effectiveness of a player and how he may contribute to winning over and above the traditional boxscore and stat sheet.

But some advance statistics are still using old models of position basketball which gives more credits to a certain position than others.

give me examples so i can understand what you mean better.

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:interesting take on position-less basketball.

of course the other side of this position-less basketball theory is that hybrid players or tweeners have taken over the nba in the last 12-15 years. whether this is a good or bad thing for the game is moot since these are the facts on the ground.

and then there has been the advent of advanced statistics that reveal a good deal about the true effectiveness of a player and how he may contribute to winning over and above the traditional boxscore and stat sheet.

But some advance statistics are still using old models of position basketball which gives more credits to a certain position than others.

give me examples so i can understand what you mean better.

Like how Wow place more value on Forwards and Centers but all forwards are not the same. Should Novak or Bonner be compared to Al Jefferson or Zach Randolf.Those guys and especially in Novak case is closer to Steve Kerr or Kyle Korver than a power forward.

Bonn1997 wrote:Basically, Kidd is our best SG but he is also our best PG

+1

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Basically, Kidd is our best SG but he is also our best PG

+1

I am trying to say Kidd cannot play many minutes at PG with his age
It it just too much for his age and body, we will wear him out if so.

However, I do believe he does a lot of intangibles that do not show up on the stat sheet.
He is our leader and he has the respect of Melo, coach, and all the players on our roster.

but

I do not believe he is a PG at this stage of his career, he cannot penetrate consistently to set up the team, or can he stay in front of other PG's especially starting caliber PGs.
Playing the PG, Kidd must utilize much more energy/kill his legs, and it will catch up to him by the 4th quarter/post season
It will affect his ability to shoot the ball as efficient as he has been so far

We need penetration to initiate an offense and break down our opponents DEFENSE, it doesn't have to come from Kidd, but then it will have to come from the SG, SF, and other positions.
That is why I felt KIDD was the perfect player for OKC to sign prior to them trading Harden, he could have kept everyone in check, while he looked to set up the team, and the penetration comes from Westbrook, Harden, Durant.
Great penetration also makes the DEFENSE exert energy/stamina, creates mismatches/angles, open looks, cuts, alley hoops, and easy baskets opportunities.

Penetration is like a running game comparing the NBA to NFL
It opens up EVERYTHING, offensively and creates good looks for others.
It makes the opponents respect the RUN DEF, giving 1v1 opportunities for your WR's, TE's, and make's the QB's life that much easier

However, unlike OKC, we just do not have the threats and talents they had.
Kidd does improve this roster a lot but we should recognize the strengths and weaknesses at his age.

Kidd is our best SG but offensively, he can't really do much inside the arc. He is basically a 3 point specialist at this point with no mid range game.

Nevertheless, I still want him on the court at all times since his is by miles our best PG

mrKnickShot wrote:Kidd is our best SG but offensively, he can't really do much inside the arc. He is basically a 3 point specialist at this point with no mid range game.

Nevertheless, I still want him on the court at all times since his is by miles our best PG

I agree, I do not dispute that, he is our leader on the court or in the locker room.

However, If you are comparing what Kidd brings to the team with his production from the start of this year, it is misleading

because

he did not play the PG position, defend the PG position, and had Felton/Melo and even Rasheed Wallace *a 4th and sometimes the 5th 3point shooter to spread the floor, making this easy for Kidd to set up/facilitate our offense* Now lets not forget his age and how playing the PG with all our injuries would change his current role, exerting much more energy.
If he has to exert much more energy, his production, shooting % especially his amazing 3pt %, and fatigue would set in, and affect his production

It is a completely different role, but he seems very comfortable, effective, and productive at the SG *spot up shooter/move the ball/ very limited PG role*
I think we are putting too big of work load for Kidd at the PG for major minutes, at his age.

I believe he can finish the game at times at the PG position IF he plays SG for majority of the game and the final minutes he plays PG when the match up allows it

but

not if he is playing 30-35+ minutes at the PG position especially with all our injuries, at least not effectively, efficiently, and consistently especially at the end of the game, when his legs run out.
Melo/JR Smith/Felton/Kidd all bring the ball up, which actually exerts a lot of energy/focus if one player constantly does it.