toad wrote:When you have no FO consistency, and you go through consecutive GMs and new visions of trying to clean house of the mess that the previous one created, with the pressure of doing it quickly, you're going to see a lot of sell low/buy high.
so basically its isiah's fault that Walsh traded great talent for nothing....especially getting ripped off in the Lee deal. Was it Isiah's fault that Walsh fell in love with a complete bust in Anthony Randolph, trading a young, budding 20/10 guy for him? Cmon, lets be fair.
gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach. Not sure what Walsh could've done when the organization was deadset on getting Lebron
They were devalued. I wont deny that. But why trade zach/jamal so quickly into the regime change, while they were devalued assets? I thought the whole point in hiring dantoni, was to for him to use his funball offense, to pump up the trade value of the current roster. They never got a chance. Thats mismanagement 101, and thats on walsh. And Walsh was just straight humiliated in the lee deal. One of the worst trades in knick history behind the Curry deal its looking like.
sebstar wrote:toad wrote:When you have no FO consistency, and you go through consecutive GMs and new visions of trying to clean house of the mess that the previous one created, with the pressure of doing it quickly, you're going to see a lot of sell low/buy high.
so basically its isiah's fault that Walsh traded great talent for nothing....especially getting ripped off in the Lee deal. Was it Isiah's fault that Walsh fell in love with a complete bust in Anthony Randolph, trading a young, budding 20/10 guy for him? Cmon, lets be fair.
It was all centered around getting Lebron. Hard to judge if moving heaven and earth to get one player was the right move or not. Frankly its a question that can never be answered
toad wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.
Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.
sebstar wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach. Not sure what Walsh could've done when the organization was deadset on getting Lebron
They were devalued. I wont deny that. But why trade zach/jamal so quickly into the regime change, while they were devalued assets? I thought the whole point in hiring dantoni, was to for him to use his funball offense, to pump up the trade value of the current roster. They never got a chance. Thats mismanagement 101, and thats on walsh. And Walsh was just straight humiliated in the lee deal. One of the worst trades in knick history behind the Curry deal its looking like.
You may be right. Really hard to know for sure. Lee and Crawford's value increased under Dantoni and still Walse gave them up for peanuts like you said but still I blame Isiah for ruining the teams image in value around the league
sebstar wrote:toad wrote:When you have no FO consistency, and you go through consecutive GMs and new visions of trying to clean house of the mess that the previous one created, with the pressure of doing it quickly, you're going to see a lot of sell low/buy high.
so basically its isiah's fault that Walsh traded great talent for nothing....especially getting ripped off in the Lee deal. Was it Isiah's fault that Walsh fell in love with a complete bust in Anthony Randolph, trading a young, budding 20/10 guy for him? Cmon, lets be fair.
I'm including Isiah in the picture of consecutive GMs trying clean up and build under a dumb, impatient, meddling owner.
toad wrote:sebstar wrote:toad wrote:When you have no FO consistency, and you go through consecutive GMs and new visions of trying to clean house of the mess that the previous one created, with the pressure of doing it quickly, you're going to see a lot of sell low/buy high.
so basically its isiah's fault that Walsh traded great talent for nothing....especially getting ripped off in the Lee deal. Was it Isiah's fault that Walsh fell in love with a complete bust in Anthony Randolph, trading a young, budding 20/10 guy for him? Cmon, lets be fair.
I'm including Isiah in the picture of consecutive GMs trying clean up and build under a dumb, impatient, meddling owner.
and reactionary as in wanting Spree and Lin gone because his ego was bruised
gunsnewing wrote:sebstar wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach. Not sure what Walsh could've done when the organization was deadset on getting Lebron
They were devalued. I wont deny that. But why trade zach/jamal so quickly into the regime change, while they were devalued assets? I thought the whole point in hiring dantoni, was to for him to use his funball offense, to pump up the trade value of the current roster. They never got a chance. Thats mismanagement 101, and thats on walsh. And Walsh was just straight humiliated in the lee deal. One of the worst trades in knick history behind the Curry deal its looking like.
You may be right. Really hard to know for sure. Lee and Crawford's value increased under Dantoni and still Walse gave them up for peanuts like you said but still I blame Isiah for ruining the teams image in value around the league
When zach was here he was lambasted for being a black hole and jamal was the same for being a chucker and both for not playing defense.So you cant say that zach was gonna mature into what he is. Jamal is what he is and aint never gonna change. And WHO knew that lee would turn into an allstar scoring and rebs machine,but lee still doesnt play DEFENSE. So let stop looking backward at WOULDAS,COULDAS,SHOULDAS. This is what we have NOW. Get over it.
cooch2584 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:sebstar wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach. Not sure what Walsh could've done when the organization was deadset on getting Lebron
They were devalued. I wont deny that. But why trade zach/jamal so quickly into the regime change, while they were devalued assets? I thought the whole point in hiring dantoni, was to for him to use his funball offense, to pump up the trade value of the current roster. They never got a chance. Thats mismanagement 101, and thats on walsh. And Walsh was just straight humiliated in the lee deal. One of the worst trades in knick history behind the Curry deal its looking like.
You may be right. Really hard to know for sure. Lee and Crawford's value increased under Dantoni and still Walse gave them up for peanuts like you said but still I blame Isiah for ruining the teams image in value around the league
When zach was here he was lambasted for being a black hole and jamal was the same for being a chucker and both for not playing defense.So you cant say that zach was gonna mature into what he is. Jamal is what he is and aint never gonna change. And WHO knew that lee would turn into an allstar scoring and rebs machine,but lee still doesnt play DEFENSE. So let stop looking backward at WOULDAS,COULDAS,SHOULDAS. This is what we have NOW. Get over it.
Lee was a scoring and rebounding machine as a Knick. And he was forced to play center under Dantoni which made his defense look worse. Another example of how the Knicks devalued their own players
AnubisADL wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's a great player but when we gave so many young players and picks when we could've waited and signed for nothing outright was a killer. Also why does Houston get picks from us in every trade and we get nothing for Lin. And lee for amare is a bust
Hahaha this gif says it all. One losing streak and the Melo trade is the worst thing that ever happened. Please people.
gunsnewing wrote:toad wrote:sebstar wrote:toad wrote:When you have no FO consistency, and you go through consecutive GMs and new visions of trying to clean house of the mess that the previous one created, with the pressure of doing it quickly, you're going to see a lot of sell low/buy high.
so basically its isiah's fault that Walsh traded great talent for nothing....especially getting ripped off in the Lee deal. Was it Isiah's fault that Walsh fell in love with a complete bust in Anthony Randolph, trading a young, budding 20/10 guy for him? Cmon, lets be fair.
I'm including Isiah in the picture of consecutive GMs trying clean up and build under a dumb, impatient, meddling owner.
and reactionary as in wanting Spree and Lin gone because his ego was bruised
you guys are right....dolan sucks. Of course I wouldnt argue otherwise. Both those guys were paid millions to make good basketball decisions. Accept the money --- then accept the responsiblity. They were bad GMs. That'd be like me, as a melo fan, blaming dolan whenever Melo screws up, or loses.
MSG3 wrote:AnubisADL wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's a great player but when we gave so many young players and picks when we could've waited and signed for nothing outright was a killer. Also why does Houston get picks from us in every trade and we get nothing for Lin. And lee for amare is a bust
Hahaha this gif says it all. One losing streak and the Melo trade is the worst thing that ever happened. Please people.
I agree and if we didnt have Amare we wouldnt have gotten ANYONE ELSE TO COME HERE.
cooch2584 wrote:MSG3 wrote:AnubisADL wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's a great player but when we gave so many young players and picks when we could've waited and signed for nothing outright was a killer. Also why does Houston get picks from us in every trade and we get nothing for Lin. And lee for amare is a bust
Hahaha this gif says it all. One losing streak and the Melo trade is the worst thing that ever happened. Please people.
I agree and if we didnt have Amare we wouldnt have gotten ANYONE ELSE TO COME HERE.
If it means not having Amare then I think I might take that chance and see who we could get. Like CP3 and Melo in the offseason
I have a propostion for all the Melo trade haters. You guys go back and come up with a ficticious team if we didnt make all the moves we made. Put together a team based on yalls shoulda done this,coulda done that and woulda never done this. Yall do that and come up with a better team than what we have now. This is a homework assignment.
sebstar wrote:toad wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.
Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.
It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.
It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.
toad wrote:sebstar wrote:toad wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.
Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.
It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.
It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.
Exactly enjoy it this year but its down hill from here
cooch2584 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:cooch2584 wrote:MSG3 wrote:AnubisADL wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's a great player but when we gave so many young players and picks when we could've waited and signed for nothing outright was a killer. Also why does Houston get picks from us in every trade and we get nothing for Lin. And lee for amare is a bust
Hahaha this gif says it all. One losing streak and the Melo trade is the worst thing that ever happened. Please people.
I agree and if we didnt have Amare we wouldnt have gotten ANYONE ELSE TO COME HERE.
If it means not having Amare then I think I might take that chance and see who we could get. Like CP3 and Melo in the offseason
20/20 hindsight guns.
Yes I realize that. It's just so frustrating going through 12yrs of losing and inept management for 1yr where we may or may not contend because the owner never committed to building the team the right way through the draft
gunsnewing wrote:toad wrote:sebstar wrote:toad wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.
Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.
It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.
It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.
Exactly enjoy it this year but its down hill from here
Not exactly what I said, but ok. There a lot of ways it can still go. And it's no joke to have a contending team to root for.
toad wrote:sebstar wrote:toad wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach
I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.
only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.
Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.
It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.
It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.
I already addressed this, but Ill repeat. The whole selling point behind the Dantoni hire was this idea that he was going to inflate the value of the roster as constituted, and also attract big name players like Lebron. He failed on both counts, especially on the first. Zach/Jamal were traded like 5 games into the regime. They were never given a chance to play under dantoni. Those assets were mismanaged. Walsh chose to sell low on them. They could always play, he just didnt believe in them.
