Knicks · sincere kudos to MDA cause present Knick Defense is WORSE than it was under D'Antonio last yr. (page 3)
fishmike wrote:They only played around .500 for one of the last 4 years and their record is well above .500 which it hasn't been for a long time. The Knicks have had a lot of injuries. It is pretty exciting to see Amare getting back to form, Felton playing again, and Shump back on the court. Hopefully Sheed is coming back soon and Kidd isn't layed up for too long with his back injury. I think the Knicks maintained and overcame a lot the first half of the year. Having Amare and Shump will definitely make the team stronger. If Tyson and Kidd's injuries aren't serious I think the Knicks will have a better second half of the season.VCoug wrote:MSG3 wrote:DJMUSIC wrote:smackeddog wrote:Were we ever 27-15 under D'antoni while missing significant players with injuries?No but Knicks have yet to play KNICK D' in January 2013
Dont solely tout the record, easy come easy go.
We dont want any part of easy go..500 record at end of season for nba east entry into playoffs do not excite DJ
Knicks have a homestand & road gm against few teams to do some win streak now, .
Lets see what record is in 1 wk or so then before we start to ignore a FACT this team ain't
Playing nba defense anymore in January or what's needed to get better.Worst case can happen for our loved Nyk is to lose div. To Brooklyn Nets & have to be seeded
Elsewhere for nba playoffs. That is my whole point its called 'Playing the game da right way! 'Starts & ends with D always an identity staplemark of successful Ny knick teams.
We aint beating teams in playoffs by trying to outscore them which some of Knick philosophy
Seem prevalent & few seem quite happy with that manner to win few games.Plus, we only have this good of a record BECAUSE of our early season D. We haven't gained much ground since December. We've been hovering at 12 games over .500 since then.
Since starting the season 6-0 we're only 21-15
thats not the real picture. The real picture is we started with great defense and began the year 18-5. Since then we are 9-10. Knicks have been .500 for 20 games now. Thats a legit sampling.
We essentially only play D for 2 quaters, which 2 is anybody's guess
Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
Ainge has tried to trade him in years previous.
Im going to defend Melo here as a player who is changing and still producing. melo alone does not win a championship and he is as good as the team around him.
If your going to trade him because there are missing pieces to the puzzle thats one thing. Rondo is not it.
And if your Dolan you don't trade the smiling star who avg's 29pg and some fans pay just to see him (moobyistics).
Hate on him with logic but Rondo for Melo is not a good trade proposal.
A colleague and I were talking about his ACL and how it sucks. We did not feel too bad because Rondo is not liked. We felt bad about feeling bad. Then we decided that say "god" told us some player "HAD" to have an ACL go and make a list of players. Not a kind god mind you but someone gets the leg injury! Who is comes to mind?
Least favorite team? Celtics. Least favorite players? One of three- KG, Pierce, Rondo. Some of you might pick Lebron but he has not been a knick killer his career. WE don't have a rivalry with Miami (yet).
Its a weird conversation.
To be fair the defense on that old Pheonix team was not its hallmark. However, the defense under D'Antoni's Knicks was ranked as one of the highest in the league. Only problem was nobody cared so much because the team kept losing because of bad offense. Also, its just easier to repeat what you hear from other people instead of looking with your own eyes, doing research and coming up with an independent informed decision on your own.
fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
it wouldn't matter who we traded for. Anything less than MJ and fans will find a reason to critique. Hell, New York fans would likely say he shoots too much. Being a Knick fan is starting to = crotchety old biddy that you can't do anything to please. We are pretty much right where Woody wanted the team to be for the most part and instead of being happy that for the first time in years we aren't the walking mat of the NBA, some (overly vocal) guys just want to bytch and complain.
this site is being dragged down by just a few guys because people continue to feed them by acknowledging them.
fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...
tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...
Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Nalod wrote:Phuch Rondo. He would have melted in NYC and we would have ruined him. He is a talent and a head case. The chemistry worked because you had 3 alphas to distribute the ball to. Credit to Doc for bringing this kid along but under Larry, Isiah, MDA and the turnover of roster he would have been ruined here.Ainge has tried to trade him in years previous.
Im going to defend Melo here as a player who is changing and still producing. melo alone does not win a championship and he is as good as the team around him.
If your going to trade him because there are missing pieces to the puzzle thats one thing. Rondo is not it.
And if your Dolan you don't trade the smiling star who avg's 29pg and some fans pay just to see him (moobyistics).
Hate on him with logic but Rondo for Melo is not a good trade proposal.
A colleague and I were talking about his ACL and how it sucks. We did not feel too bad because Rondo is not liked. We felt bad about feeling bad. Then we decided that say "god" told us some player "HAD" to have an ACL go and make a list of players. Not a kind god mind you but someone gets the leg injury! Who is comes to mind?
Least favorite team? Celtics. Least favorite players? One of three- KG, Pierce, Rondo. Some of you might pick Lebron but he has not been a knick killer his career. WE don't have a rivalry with Miami (yet).
Its a weird conversation.
head case? I don't know, he isn't out waiting by the team bus nalod... The kid is mentally strong, coming into that situation in boston with 3 HOF players, he has pretty much taken over that team and has the respect of the vet players.. He imposed his will in a way that allowed those guys to respect him.... we are in two different places nalod. the east is getting tougher, younger.. we are not.. that is a problem... I fear in a year or two, we will be such a mess, I don't think this team is a championship team, and isn't that the goal? If you believe in catching lightning in a bottle, then fine, you roll with what we got... I would take the chance on a longer term investment with a guy like rondo.... just saying..
mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.
mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
healthy there is probably no way we get him with what we have... I am looking at taking advantage of a situation....
knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.
sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
What emotion are you speaking of? And I've already answered that question...Shumpert doesn't need his athleticism as much as Rondo does.
tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
TKF, just because Rondo is one of the best PGs in the game doesn't mean he can actually lead his team to a championship. Think about it, besides Billups, no team with a ball-dominant PG has sniffed a championship ring recently. Magic and Isiah were the exceptions to this only because Magic was a godly as a basketball talent and, from isiah's perspective, also that Jordan wasn't at the point of flat out domination yet.
Yeah Rondo affects the game on both ends, but he often takes way too many gambles on both ends and is often bailed out by his VETERAN teammates. He won't get that luxury here. Also, he's a turnover machine waiting to explode come playoff time. We're blessed with a team that does NOT turn the ball over that much. Look at all the championship teams, you'll see they all take care of the ball a lot. Rondo turns the ball over.
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.
Rondo will win you 60 games during the regular season... he won't help us in the post season.
knickscity wrote:tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
What emotion are you speaking of? And I've already answered that question...Shumpert doesn't need his athleticism as much as Rondo does.
i wasn't referring to you... You actually answered the question....
vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
TKF, just because Rondo is one of the best PGs in the game doesn't mean he can actually lead his team to a championship. Think about it, besides Billups, no team with a ball-dominant PG has sniffed a championship ring recently. Magic and Isiah were the exceptions to this only because Magic was a godly as a basketball talent and, from isiah's perspective, also that Jordan wasn't at the point of flat out domination yet.
Yeah Rondo affects the game on both ends, but he often takes way too many gambles on both ends and is often bailed out by his VETERAN teammates. He won't get that luxury here. Also, he's a turnover machine waiting to explode come playoff time. We're blessed with a team that does NOT turn the ball over that much. Look at all the championship teams, you'll see they all take care of the ball a lot. Rondo turns the ball over.
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.
Rondo will win you 60 games during the regular season... he won't help us in the post season.
rondo, billups, lebron all have proven they can lead championship worthy players to championships.... that is what I am looking for.. we know it takes a team to win, but who leads that team is just as important.. I don't think we have that..
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.
that is not true.. you beat good defenses with good ball movement, not constant iso..... and again, we keep talking about coming down to last shots.. I don't want it coming down to last shots.. how many finals have come down to last shots? and oh guess what.. do you want paxon, kerr or Jordan taking the last shot? the answer is jordan but guess what, paxon and kerr both hit series winning shots.. i want a team with multiple guys capable of hitting last minute shots and most of all a player, a leader capable of not only understanding that concept but willing under any circumstance to execute that concept!
the spurs have 4 guys on that team I would not mind taking a game winning shot!!
tkf wrote:vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
TKF, just because Rondo is one of the best PGs in the game doesn't mean he can actually lead his team to a championship. Think about it, besides Billups, no team with a ball-dominant PG has sniffed a championship ring recently. Magic and Isiah were the exceptions to this only because Magic was a godly as a basketball talent and, from isiah's perspective, also that Jordan wasn't at the point of flat out domination yet.
Yeah Rondo affects the game on both ends, but he often takes way too many gambles on both ends and is often bailed out by his VETERAN teammates. He won't get that luxury here. Also, he's a turnover machine waiting to explode come playoff time. We're blessed with a team that does NOT turn the ball over that much. Look at all the championship teams, you'll see they all take care of the ball a lot. Rondo turns the ball over.
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.
Rondo will win you 60 games during the regular season... he won't help us in the post season.
rondo, billups, lebron all have proven they can lead championship worthy players to championships.... that is what I am looking for.. we know it takes a team to win, but who leads that team is just as important.. I don't think we have that..
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.that is not true.. you beat good defenses with good ball movement, not constant iso..... and again, we keep talking about coming down to last shots.. I don't want it coming down to last shots.. how many finals have come down to last shots? and oh guess what.. do you want paxon, kerr or Jordan taking the last shot? the answer is jordan but guess what, paxon and kerr both hit series winning shots.. i want a team with multiple guys capable of hitting last minute shots and most of all a player, a leader capable of not only understanding that concept but willing under any circumstance to execute that concept!
the spurs have 4 guys on that team I would not mind taking a game winning shot!!
FOH with "Rondo" leading championship worthy players to championships. If I remember correctly, a healthy Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett led that team to a championship, not Rondo. Billups did, but he's also the exception because that team was flat out stacked defensively (big credit to Rasheed and Ben Wallace). Also, I don't lump Billups with the ball-dominant PGs I'm talking about. Jason Kidd circa Dallas was a ball-dominant PG. There's also a reason his team couldn't beat the Lakers & Spurs and you know that too. LeBron's on another level in the NBA and it's a disgrace to lump him as a PG. Let's take him off that list. Sometimes the leader of the team doesn't have to be a PG or yet doesn't have to be a ball-dominant PG. Now if you don't think we have that leadership, that's debatable. I think this team has veteran leadership from the bench to the starting lineup. The leader doesn't necessarily need to be the best player on the team, though it certainly helps.
To your second point, I'll agree with that you beat teams with good ball movement. But how will Rondo provide that? As you're saying, good ball movement involves all 5 guys on the floor. Rondo needs the ball more and more and more. Yeah he averages 11 assists a game, but what good is that if you hold the ball all the time? Teams know that during the playoffs. He can't ball like that against the Heat or Bulls because they'll all stop him from passing the ball.
Now you say you don't want the game to come down to last shots... it's not about late shots necessarily, it's about clutch shots. That can be anytime during the game. Clutch shots occur all the time. It's not like the regular season where you can just blow out teams. Many Finals or playoff series have come down to last shots. Damn, the 99 playoffs, we had Allan Houston and the 4 point play. Now yes, Paxson and Kerr hit those game-winning shots, but you do realize that the only reason they get those shots is not because of ball movement, but due to common sense AND the fact that the defense is basically paying attention to Michael Jordan because he is a THREAT to score. If Jordan was Gallo-lite or, better yet, if there were two Scottie Pippens on the team, Kerr & Paxson may not have even gotten the opportunity to score.
Now obviously we need multiple guys who can hit shots. That's who we call stars. Shaq & Kobe, Shaq & Wade, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Boston's Big 3, Kobe & Pau, Dirk and Co., and the Miami Big 3 are all STARS. The Denver Nuggets do not have STARS yet. The Houston Rockets have James Harden, who basically got shook in last year's finals. Put a very capable Melo & Amare and you have 2 STARS. Maybe not SUPERSTARS, but STARS nonetheless. Add Felton, Kidd, Novak, and even JR and you got a bunch of guys who can hit last minute shots. The Spurs have Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Don't include S-Jax because he can't. The Nuggets have none that are battle tested. Gallo looks like he can get there, but does he have what it takes? Does Lawson have what it takes and is he willing to give up the rock to Gallo when neeeded? Looks like that's to be determined later.
vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five).
Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of?
Oh ... Rondo. Never mind.
I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back.sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it..
TKF, just because Rondo is one of the best PGs in the game doesn't mean he can actually lead his team to a championship. Think about it, besides Billups, no team with a ball-dominant PG has sniffed a championship ring recently. Magic and Isiah were the exceptions to this only because Magic was a godly as a basketball talent and, from isiah's perspective, also that Jordan wasn't at the point of flat out domination yet.
Yeah Rondo affects the game on both ends, but he often takes way too many gambles on both ends and is often bailed out by his VETERAN teammates. He won't get that luxury here. Also, he's a turnover machine waiting to explode come playoff time. We're blessed with a team that does NOT turn the ball over that much. Look at all the championship teams, you'll see they all take care of the ball a lot. Rondo turns the ball over.
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.
Rondo will win you 60 games during the regular season... he won't help us in the post season.
rondo, billups, lebron all have proven they can lead championship worthy players to championships.... that is what I am looking for.. we know it takes a team to win, but who leads that team is just as important.. I don't think we have that..
Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no.that is not true.. you beat good defenses with good ball movement, not constant iso..... and again, we keep talking about coming down to last shots.. I don't want it coming down to last shots.. how many finals have come down to last shots? and oh guess what.. do you want paxon, kerr or Jordan taking the last shot? the answer is jordan but guess what, paxon and kerr both hit series winning shots.. i want a team with multiple guys capable of hitting last minute shots and most of all a player, a leader capable of not only understanding that concept but willing under any circumstance to execute that concept!
the spurs have 4 guys on that team I would not mind taking a game winning shot!!
FOH with "Rondo" leading championship worthy players to championships. If I remember correctly, a healthy Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett led that team to a championship, not Rondo. Billups did, but he's also the exception because that team was flat out stacked defensively (big credit to Rasheed and Ben Wallace). Also, I don't lump Billups with the ball-dominant PGs I'm talking about. Jason Kidd circa Dallas was a ball-dominant PG. There's also a reason his team couldn't beat the Lakers & Spurs and you know that too. LeBron's on another level in the NBA and it's a disgrace to lump him as a PG. Let's take him off that list. Sometimes the leader of the team doesn't have to be a PG or yet doesn't have to be a ball-dominant PG. Now if you don't think we have that leadership, that's debatable. I think this team has veteran leadership from the bench to the starting lineup. The leader doesn't necessarily need to be the best player on the team, though it certainly helps.
To your second point, I'll agree with that you beat teams with good ball movement. But how will Rondo provide that? As you're saying, good ball movement involves all 5 guys on the floor. Rondo needs the ball more and more and more. Yeah he averages 11 assists a game, but what good is that if you hold the ball all the time? Teams know that during the playoffs. He can't ball like that against the Heat or Bulls because they'll all stop him from passing the ball.
Now you say you don't want the game to come down to last shots... it's not about late shots necessarily, it's about clutch shots. That can be anytime during the game. Clutch shots occur all the time. It's not like the regular season where you can just blow out teams. Many Finals or playoff series have come down to last shots. Damn, the 99 playoffs, we had Allan Houston and the 4 point play. Now yes, Paxson and Kerr hit those game-winning shots, but you do realize that the only reason they get those shots is not because of ball movement, but due to common sense AND the fact that the defense is basically paying attention to Michael Jordan because he is a THREAT to score. If Jordan was Gallo-lite or, better yet, if there were two Scottie Pippens on the team, Kerr & Paxson may not have even gotten the opportunity to score.
Now obviously we need multiple guys who can hit shots. That's who we call stars. Shaq & Kobe, Shaq & Wade, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Boston's Big 3, Kobe & Pau, Dirk and Co., and the Miami Big 3 are all STARS. The Denver Nuggets do not have STARS yet. The Houston Rockets have James Harden, who basically got shook in last year's finals. Put a very capable Melo & Amare and you have 2 STARS. Maybe not SUPERSTARS, but STARS nonetheless. Add Felton, Kidd, Novak, and even JR and you got a bunch of guys who can hit last minute shots. The Spurs have Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Don't include S-Jax because he can't. The Nuggets have none that are battle tested. Gallo looks like he can get there, but does he have what it takes? Does Lawson have what it takes and is he willing to give up the rock to Gallo when neeeded? Looks like that's to be determined later.
YOU KNOW WHAT, I ONCE was like GTFOH with rondo leading that celtics team.. yes pierce was GREAT, Garnett a stud, but rondo was like the glue to that team... especially in the following years. It went from the big 3 and rondo, to really Rondo being the best player on that team.. quickly.. you can't take that away from him..
Also, I don't lump Billups with the ball-dominant PGs I'm talking about. Jason Kidd circa Dallas was a ball-dominant PG. There's also a reason his team couldn't beat the Lakers & Spurs and you know that too. LeBron's on another level in the NBA and it's a disgrace to lump him as a PG. Let's take him off that list. Sometimes the leader of the team doesn't have to be a PG or yet doesn't have to be a ball-dominant PG. Now if you don't think we have that leadership, that's debatable. I think this team has veteran leadership from the bench to the starting lineup. The leader doesn't necessarily need to be the best player on the team, though it certainly helps.
yes, I do know why kidd didn't win.... the Spurs team was just better.. no reflection on kidd as he was one of the very best players in the league..what he did with that nets team was amazing.. And I am just not talking PG's here.. I mentioned lebron as special players, guys who can lead teams... of course the leader of a team does not have to be a PG.. I never said that.. it can come from anywhere.. still, I don't think we have that at all.. if kidd were 6 years younger and the face of this team, I might change that view.... And no the leader doesn't have to be the best player on the team, but when your team empowers the wrong guys, it makes it hard for anyone else to assume leadership roles...
but you do realize that the only reason they get those shots is not because of ball movement, but due to common sense AND the fact that the defense is basically paying attention to Michael Jordan because he is a THREAT to score. If Jordan was Gallo-lite or, better yet, if there were two Scottie Pippens on the team, Kerr & Paxson may not have even gotten the opportunity to score.
you do realize that without jordan the bulls were close advancing again, if not for the gift we got on that hubert Davis foul...And yes defenses focus on Jordan, don't fool yourself, no one is doubling carmelo for a final shot, it hasn't happened in the playoffs, teams have been going at him straight up with guys like battier.. even then, jordan passed to those guys because they were capable, and he knew it was the right thing to do.... if there were two scottie pippens on that team, I would certainly believe they could muster a good shot with two talented players like that... with that said.. we don't have a jordan... or a pippen for that matter..
Put a very capable Melo & Amare and you have 2 STARS. Maybe not SUPERSTARS, but STARS nonetheless. Add Felton, Kidd, Novak, and even JR and you got a bunch of guys who can hit last minute shots. The Spurs have Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Don't include S-Jax because he can't.
this is where we differ.. and I will say this being a huge amare fan.. he is a finisher, and Dk mentioned this long ago, amare needs to be a better passer and play maker for others in order for the knicks to go to another level, he said this before the carmelo trade.. now in carmelo we have the similar problem.. he is not a playmaker, he doesn't make plays for others.. the other guys you mentioned.. parker, manu, wade, shaq, all were play makers.. huge difference... I just think you guys are expecting something out of carmelo that he has never been in 10 years and hasn't shown any consistent behavior in changing that... but again, we just dissagree here.... as far as guys who can make big shots.. kidd has proven he can, but he is aging and declining.. lets hope he has some big shots left in him... novak, jr, felton, they have to prove they can... we will see, I will give you that.. It remains to be seen..... not saying it can't, they just don't have that track record at this point.. but that can change.... I will say that guys like novak and to some degree felton have never really been given that type of chance...
YOU KNOW WHAT, I ONCE was like GTFOH with rondo leading that celtics team.. yes pierce was GREAT, Garnett a stud, but rondo was like the glue to that team... especially in the following years. It went from the big 3 and rondo, to really Rondo being the best player on that team.. quickly.. you can't take that away from him..
I'll give that to you, I just thought his leadership came post-championship and it was heavily influenced from being out vets like KG, Pierce, and even the oldies they had during that run. Again, you're right, but I just think he was important post-2008 and wasn't a huge factor in 2008.
yes, I do know why kidd didn't win.... the Spurs team was just better.. no reflection on kidd as he was one of the very best players in the league..what he did with that nets team was amazing.. And I am just not talking PG's here.. I mentioned lebron as special players, guys who can lead teams... of course the leader of a team does not have to be a PG.. I never said that.. it can come from anywhere.. still, I don't think we have that at all.. if kidd were 6 years younger and the face of this team, I might change that view.... And no the leader doesn't have to be the best player on the team, but when your team empowers the wrong guys, it makes it hard for anyone else to assume leadership roles...
The Lakers & Spurs teams were more talented, but the Nets did rely on Kidd because no one else could really create their own shots. Kittles was good, not a scoring threat. Van Horn was and is soft. RJ was just blossoming and K-Mart was a recipient of all those Kidd assists. The Lakers and Spurs had a frontcourt that pretty much made Martin very ordinary and no one else stepped up. I agree, nothing against Kidd, but he couldn't lead them by himself.
Now we don't really know who the true leaders are on the team until we actually get to see the team in practice and the locker room every day. Everyone would think Melo, but maybe it's not really him. I don't know who the leaders and it is to be determined later whether this team has good leadership. Too early to tell.
you do realize that without jordan the bulls were close advancing again, if not for the gift we got on that hubert Davis foul...And yes defenses focus on Jordan, don't fool yourself, no one is doubling carmelo for a final shot, it hasn't happened in the playoffs, teams have been going at him straight up with guys like battier.. even then, jordan passed to those guys because they were capable, and he knew it was the right thing to do.... if there were two scottie pippens on that team, I would certainly believe they could muster a good shot with two talented players like that... with that said.. we don't have a jordan... or a pippen for that matter..
Take Phil Jackson off that team and the Bulls would be a first round exit, if even. I think double teaming scorers especially come playoff is not as frequent as I thought it was just because of the inherent risks with doing it. Maybe it's just my thinking, I don't know. Yes, no team will need to double Melo. And yes, Melo's weakness is against tougher defenders, I'll agree. And obviously we don't have a Jordan or Pippen either, but I can say Melo and Amare are two good players.
this is where we differ.. and I will say this being a huge amare fan.. he is a finisher, and Dk mentioned this long ago, amare needs to be a better passer and play maker for others in order for the knicks to go to another level, he said this before the carmelo trade.. now in carmelo we have the similar problem.. he is not a playmaker, he doesn't make plays for others.. the other guys you mentioned.. parker, manu, wade, shaq, all were play makers.. huge difference... I just think you guys are expecting something out of carmelo that he has never been in 10 years and hasn't shown any consistent behavior in changing that... but again, we just dissagree here.... as far as guys who can make big shots.. kidd has proven he can, but he is aging and declining.. lets hope he has some big shots left in him... novak, jr, felton, they have to prove they can... we will see, I will give you that.. It remains to be seen..... not saying it can't, they just don't have that track record at this point.. but that can change.... I will say that guys like novak and to some degree felton have never really been given that type of chance...
Amare DOES need to be a better playmaker I agree. The thing is Carmelo CAN be a playmaker when he wants. He just needs to make better decisions on when to pass the ball and when to shoot. Now if you and I want to go into his brain and make him think that way, I'm down for that, but I'll agree to an extent. Parker, Manu, & Wade are playmakers because it is essentially required for them at their positions. It's in their innate abilities.
I'll end my thoughts with saying that we agree and we disagree at the same time. Done deal. Agree with this?