Knicks · Im going to sweeten the pot for the Knicks--so you give me your answer now (page 4)

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

IronWillGiroud wrote:I don't understand the love for Dudley, he's an average player,

Shump is already better plus the ceiling is high on this Shumpdawg

I like shump and I think his natural progression as an NBA player will probably lead him to being a better player than dudley, in the future.. but right now, he is not a better player than dudley..

gunsnewing wrote:Rick Fox is a perfect comparison to Dudley actually. Athough Rick played good D. Solid end of the bench role player on a championship squad

Rick Fox played huge roles in Lakers winning 3 in a row, So obviously if Dudley is Rick Fox and we are CONTENDERS then Dudley doesn't stop us from getting DAT CHIP...

Now take your heart of the discussion and start from scratch.

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

OK, SO THEN why trade him in a deal for Oneal?

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

OK, SO THEN why trade him in a deal for Oneal?

THAT'S MY POINT, tkf. Another aged big with 50 years on his knees is not something I'd trade the rights to Pat Ewing, jr for. No matter what his 36 minutes/per stats say.

By golly, and here I thought you hated Brewer almost as much as you hated Melo?

Don't tell me we're agreeing on something again!

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

OK, SO THEN why trade him in a deal for Oneal?

THAT'S MY POINT, tkf. Another aged big with 50 years on his knees is not something I'd trade the rights to Pat Ewing, jr for. No matter what his 36 minutes/per stats say.

By golly, and here I thought you hated Brewer almost as much as you hated Melo?

Don't tell me we're agreeing on something again!

I guess..

I just don't see a trade here at all.. especially if it requires the suns to include any pick at all.. we are not getting a pick from the suns, and we don't need another 50 year old big rotting in the training room..

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

OK, SO THEN why trade him in a deal for Oneal?

THAT'S MY POINT, tkf. Another aged big with 50 years on his knees is not something I'd trade the rights to Pat Ewing, jr for. No matter what his 36 minutes/per stats say.

By golly, and here I thought you hated Brewer almost as much as you hated Melo?

Don't tell me we're agreeing on something again!

I guess..

I just don't see a trade here at all.. especially if it requires the suns to include any pick at all.. we are not getting a pick from the suns, and we don't need another 50 year old big rotting in the training room..

At dayum near 7 mil, too.

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

exactly... although I am a believer in shumps potential, at this point he is not better than dudley... why would the suns include a pick of any sort?

Yes, "at this point" he is not better than Dudley. But how many guys just back from ACL surgery are anywhere near pre-injury? (Excluding Adrian Peterson )
I would easily take last years Shump over Dudley now. His defense was just insane. HE would often take the opposing PG out of the game (at least when it mattered).
His offense was so so, but he gets a pass as he was a rookie. His arms are still very very fast but he just doesn't have the leg speed, lateral or not imo.

He can make a difference come playoffs for us. So could Dudley, but I think Shump is going to improve lots from here out.

earthmansurfer wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

exactly... although I am a believer in shumps potential, at this point he is not better than dudley... why would the suns include a pick of any sort?

Yes, "at this point" he is not better than Dudley. But how many guys just back from ACL surgery are anywhere near pre-injury? (Excluding Adrian Peterson )
I would easily take last years Shump over Dudley now. His defense was just insane. HE would often take the opposing PG out of the game (at least when it mattered).
His offense was so so, but he gets a pass as he was a rookie. His arms are still very very fast but he just doesn't have the leg speed, lateral or not imo.

He can make a difference come playoffs for us. So could Dudley, but I think Shump is going to improve lots from here out.

Will D-Rose improve lots too?

3G4G wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

exactly... although I am a believer in shumps potential, at this point he is not better than dudley... why would the suns include a pick of any sort?

Yes, "at this point" he is not better than Dudley. But how many guys just back from ACL surgery are anywhere near pre-injury? (Excluding Adrian Peterson )
I would easily take last years Shump over Dudley now. His defense was just insane. HE would often take the opposing PG out of the game (at least when it mattered).
His offense was so so, but he gets a pass as he was a rookie. His arms are still very very fast but he just doesn't have the leg speed, lateral or not imo.

He can make a difference come playoffs for us. So could Dudley, but I think Shump is going to improve lots from here out.

Will D-Rose improve lost too?

D-Rose is not a great defensive pg, but he is a great offensive one, fast with a bullying style. I don't know but think it depends a lot on if he gets star treatment.

What do you think?

earthmansurfer wrote:

3G4G wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

exactly... although I am a believer in shumps potential, at this point he is not better than dudley... why would the suns include a pick of any sort?

Yes, "at this point" he is not better than Dudley. But how many guys just back from ACL surgery are anywhere near pre-injury? (Excluding Adrian Peterson )
I would easily take last years Shump over Dudley now. His defense was just insane. HE would often take the opposing PG out of the game (at least when it mattered).
His offense was so so, but he gets a pass as he was a rookie. His arms are still very very fast but he just doesn't have the leg speed, lateral or not imo.

He can make a difference come playoffs for us. So could Dudley, but I think Shump is going to improve lots from here out.

Will D-Rose improve lots too?

D-Rose is not a great defensive pg, but he is a great offensive one, fast with a bullying style. I don't know but think it depends a lot on if he gets star treatment.

What do you think?

I think since he's taken his time to come back he's going to be fresh by Playoffs. They say he's re-invented his game quite a bit. I think the ACL injury told him to cut the summersaulting slam balling to the basket out of it. Appears to me Shump came back too soon.

even though the Bulls have been more patient with Rose, like Shump he is not going to be 100% til next year. Maybe closer once the playoffs roll around

Dudley is a very solid player. He would make us better right now but then there's Shumps potential..

earthmansurfer wrote:

3G4G wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

exactly... although I am a believer in shumps potential, at this point he is not better than dudley... why would the suns include a pick of any sort?

Yes, "at this point" he is not better than Dudley. But how many guys just back from ACL surgery are anywhere near pre-injury? (Excluding Adrian Peterson )
I would easily take last years Shump over Dudley now. His defense was just insane. HE would often take the opposing PG out of the game (at least when it mattered).
His offense was so so, but he gets a pass as he was a rookie. His arms are still very very fast but he just doesn't have the leg speed, lateral or not imo.

He can make a difference come playoffs for us. So could Dudley, but I think Shump is going to improve lots from here out.

Will D-Rose improve lost too?

D-Rose is not a great defensive pg, but he is a great offensive one, fast with a bullying style. I don't know but think it depends a lot on if he gets star treatment.

What do you think?

Rose was once a great offensive force with blazing quick speed, but only time will tell if he'll ever return to the player in which he once was. Shumpert had the same injury, yes, but all injuries are different and/or take a toll on a players body/mind in a different types of ways. And Shumpert has yet to return to form in regards to the amazing perimeter defense he was pre-injury (which is expected this early upon return from a serious injury). Patience is key. We may not see Shumpert 100% until sometime next season. Shump's also two years younger than Rose. We'll see with Rose moving forward.

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I doubt they'd do this even without the pick included.

Jermaine Oneal means 0 to the Suns

and Brewer means what to the knicks?

at this point in their careers, more than Jermaine Oneal would.

I don't know why there's still Jermaine O'Neal talk- his salary would complicate a trade. Here are the salaries of players that could be used in a trade for Dudley:

Cope $473,000
White $854,000
Shump $1.7mil
Kurt $1.35mil
Brewer $1.07mil

Dudley $4.3mil
Jermaine O'Neal $1.35mil

It's hard enough matching with Dudley's. If you then add O'Neal, it means you're losing at leas another player or two- not worth it at all.

so we trade our only young remaining bright spot on this roster for another role player whos maxed out as an utterly average role player in this league. Sounds about right for the Knicks. God I hope we dont. But hey.. silly fish thought a Shump/Lin backcourt would be a great segway into the future while we compete for a title now with this great frontcourt.

But hey.. thats just the somber in me. Im sure if we trade Shump it wil be for the role player that we need to win a title. Im sure.

BRIGGS wrote:Knicks acquire

Jermaine Oneal 6-11 260
Jared Dudley 6-7 230
a 2014 # 1 pick lotto restricted

for Iman Shumpert
and Ronnie Brewer

No - for 2 reasons.

1) I want the Laker lottery pick for this year (why wait another year for lottery protected pick)
2) If they want IMAN that bad -- I want to move Novak (and his bad 4-year deal) as part of the deal

Also --- wouldn't mind Telfair coming back in this deal (like his defense and ability to penetrate) over what Pablo will bring in playoffs

fishmike wrote:so we trade our only young remaining bright spot on this roster for another role player whos maxed out as an utterly average role player in this league. Sounds about right for the Knicks. God I hope we dont. But hey.. silly fish thought a Shump/Lin backcourt would be a great segway into the future while we compete for a title now with this great frontcourt.

But hey.. thats just the somber in me. Im sure if we trade Shump it wil be for the role player that we need to win a title. Im sure.

No need to worry. This is the Suns still kicking themselves for not drafting Shumpert

Then again if you told me the Knicks were going to let Lin walk for nothing after Linsanity I would've called you crazy

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:so we trade our only young remaining bright spot on this roster for another role player whos maxed out as an utterly average role player in this league. Sounds about right for the Knicks. God I hope we dont. But hey.. silly fish thought a Shump/Lin backcourt would be a great segway into the future while we compete for a title now with this great frontcourt.

But hey.. thats just the somber in me. Im sure if we trade Shump it wil be for the role player that we need to win a title. Im sure.

No need to worry. This is the Suns still kicking themselves for not drafting Shumpert

Then again if you told me the Knicks were going to let Lin walk for nothing after Linsanity I would've called you crazy

having watched the Giants build and win titles and the Yanks do the same its an incredible feeling as a fan, and yes it means more when the guys are homegrown, because you get to watch them over the years. When you look at how this team is built and how the front office added players one of two things is clear:
1) Knicks feel they have a championship core and just need the right role players
2) Knicks dont care about that and will keep stocking the shelves with vets hoping to catch lighting and win a playoff round or two to appease the fan base.

Im not sure right now which scenario is worse