Knicks · The Goal for this Team remains the same (page 1)

It has since 2008, attract 2 major stars to play together and build properly around them to compete for a championship.

We still have yet to do this. As we acquired Melo, the player we thought was the 2nd piece to that puzzle, little did we know Stoudemire was fizzling out. We never really saw the 2 of them playing at a high level together for an extended period of time. We continued to function as if we had those 2 players, hoping Stoudemire would get healthy and actually successfully built the team around those 2 players, adding good role players and depth that would fit well around 2 stars. Problem is of course we never had the 2 stars to begin with, making our supporting cast not what it was intended to be.

So here we are many years later, Melo is who Melo is (many will debate whether or not he is truely that star, but thats besides the point) and we are still looking to add that 2nd player. The plan will be over the next year or 2 to add that player (while resigning Melo in the meantime.) We can either do it through free agency in 2015 or consider dealing the many large expiring contracts we will have when the time comes. The question now is, who will be that player. I think Rondo seems to make the most sense realistically, i think Lebron and Kobe will always be outside options until their futures are clear. Aldridge is another option, and Irving and Love are there, but again less realistic. The ultimate fallback option is Rudy Gay, who isn't really a star, but just like Joe Johnson in 2010, will demand looks (and is a NYK type of player.)

Another few players will likely become available via trade or free agency that may fit the bill, but who do you think is our most likely addition, and how will we acquire that player?

I hear what you're saying but it's just some formula that tends to work. It isn't COMPLETELY necessary. To me, Melo's a top-10 player in this league. Still the league's best scorer (kinda proved that last year). Plus the other parts of his game, while not LeBron-like, are all very sound -- his rebounding (find me a better offensive rebounding wing out there, esp. off his own misses), passing, etc.. We can win with him. There's no doubt in my mind. While he may not have the 2nd bonafide star next to him, he does have a lot of VERY GOOD role players around him now -- Chandler, Bargnani, JR Smith, Felton, Artest, Shumpert, Beno Udrih, hopefully a good young player in Hardaway Jr. that may get a lot of time early on, etc.. That's not even counting the rest of the roster -- those guys are good and will all help out too -- STAT (once healthy enough to contribute), Martin, Prigioni, maybe a Cole Aldrich/Jeremy Tyler, etc. This team is SOLID. We have a real good mix here on paper. Chandler, Udrih and Artest all have championship rings. Melo and Felton have won championships in college...Hopefully it all plays out the way we want and we really do have enough to compete for it all. It's hard not to feel good about things -- we had a 54-win team where we kept the core intact while ENHANCING around it substantially.

To me the team to emulate is the Dallas Mavericks' 2011 championship squad. That team had the one bonafide star in Dirk, a lot of solid secondary talent and excellent chemistry. Not out of the realm of possibility to expect the same thing from this 2013-14 Knicks team...I don't know about you guys but to me on paper at least (I know it's early on), our roster compares very favorably to that team. You can make a legit case that our club might be even better/deeper than that Dallas club. Now if that's really the case and we do perform better than that team, have even better secondary pieces in place, win just as many regular season games if not more, etc., then we'll truly be good enough to compete for a chip. That's all you can ask. Glass half full for me all the way..

We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

Heres the diff though. I agree that dallas team should be the blueprint. However the diff is dirk was surrounded with defensive players as role players. We hv guys like bargs and stat

Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

The Melo topic will always be debatable. I believe he is a franchise player or close enough to it, but i know others don't and thats fine. Whether he is the 1st or 2nd "star" on this team, the purpose of the topic was who will be that other player and how we will obtain him, assuming that Mills has this as his plan. Until the Knicks no longer treat Melo like a franchise player, whether right or wrong, there is no point to beating that dead horse. I know many in here have the same opinion as you and thats fine, that discussion is just for another thread.

Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

I don't know why we speak like this. People nearly unanimously agree that Melo is a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. He's flawed, but there are at least 20 other teams that would easily take him over their best player, all things being equal. He's not perfect, but really, what right do we as Knicks fans to act like anything but a championship is an absolute failure? We all want a championship, but hell we actually had a playoff run for the first time in over a decade. That was due to Melo. So, let's stop being ridiculous and tossing him under the bus.

I certainly wish Melo was a better leader, put in consistent effort on the defensive end of the ball and would make better decisions when he's shooting the ball. But, to say he's not a franchise player is not only ludicrous, but inaccurate. He is a franchise player; he's the Knicks franchise player, and he's the main reason we made the second round. There's also zero chance of Melo getting traded. So, let's just enjoy Melo for what he is and stop faulting him for not being LeBron.

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

The Melo topic will always be debatable. I believe he is a franchise player or close enough to it, but i know others don't and thats fine. Whether he is the 1st or 2nd "star" on this team, the purpose of the topic was who will be that other player and how we will obtain him, assuming that Mills has this as his plan. Until the Knicks no longer treat Melo like a franchise player, whether right or wrong, there is no point to beating that dead horse. I know many in here have the same opinion as you and thats fine, that discussion is just for another thread.

Melo is one of the top 3 scorers in the NBA, there is no debate on that. However what Keeps Melo down a peg is his defensive weakness, playoff record, and getting teamates involved. Now i like melo but i have accepted whta he is, a top scorer with weaknesses in other areas of the game

callmened wrote:Heres the diff though. I agree that dallas team should be the blueprint. However the diff is dirk was surrounded with defensive players as role players. We hv guys like bargs and stat

Chandler, K-Mart, Shumpert & Artest are all known for their defense. JR Smith plays good defense. Even Prigioni, when he plays, is a pesky defender...Then we might also wind up carrying Cole Aldrich who can help defend the interior. He'd be the first legit shot-blocker we've had since who? Camby was well past his prime last year...Camby the first go-around? Mutombo? Ewing in his prime? Toure Murry plays defense too, if that kid even makes the team...I refuse to believe we won't play enough defense. Good defensive pieces look to be in place.

Finestrg wrote:

callmened wrote:Heres the diff though. I agree that dallas team should be the blueprint. However the diff is dirk was surrounded with defensive players as role players. We hv guys like bargs and stat

Chandler, K-Mart, Shumpert & Artest are all known for their defense. JR Smith plays good defense. Even Prigioni, when he plays, is a pesky defender...Then we might also wind up carrying Cole Aldrich who can help defend the interior. He'd be the first legit shot-blocker we've had since who? Camby was well past his prime last year...Camby the first go-around? Mutombo? Ewing in his prime? Toure Murry plays defense too, if that kid even makes the team...I refuse to believe we won't play enough defense. Good defensive pieces look to be in place.

Yes we do have pieces but ven those guys have question marks. If KMart and Shumpert are healthy then they are great defenders, If tyson Chandler can get back to his 2012 form that will help a lot, and Artest is a good defender as long as he keeps his head on straight

People really do need to stop with the idea that Melo isn't a franchise player. There may be better ones, but he qualifies. Right now I agree that this team is more like the Mavs model than anything else, but that's not a bad thing. The Pacers almost got to the finals with NO superstar. There's more to it than that.

I feel Bargnani will be the 2nd star Melo has needed. I know that very few media and fans agree, but I think people are seriously underestimating Bargnani based on him not being able to live up to the #1 draft pick and his last 2 yrs. However, i'm not basing my judgment on any of that. I'm taking AB for what he really is. AB is a weapon and when used properly it will have a positive impact for this team. It's strange that fans and media haven't actually paid attention to the fact that we just added a legit weapon to the mix of players we already had. We desperately needed a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup. Despite what people think about AB, the one thing i'm confident he will be able to do is score the ball and open up the floor.

Starting lineup =
Melo     28.7 ppg    37 mpg
Felton   13.9 ppg    34 mpg
Tyson    10.4 ppg    33 mpg
 
Off the bench = 
JR       18.1 ppg    33.5 mpg
STAT     14.2 ppg    23.5 mpg

Now we're adding AB, Beno and MWP to that mix. Also an improved Shump could be huge this year. I think Shump could avg 12 pts this year. Beno should give this team a little more than Kidd was able to scrape together and be stroner at the end of the year as well. In any event it appears to me that this team is even more potent this year than last year in a number of areas. Younger with more depth. IMO the goal was to improve the talent around Melo and I think they have.

nixluva wrote:People really do need to stop with the idea that Melo isn't a franchise player. There may be better ones, but he qualifies. Right now I agree that this team is more like the Mavs model than anything else, but that's not a bad thing. The Pacers almost got to the finals with NO superstar. There's more to it than that.

I feel Bargnani will be the 2nd star Melo has needed. I know that very few media and fans agree, but I think people are seriously underestimating Bargnani based on him not being able to live up to the #1 draft pick and his last 2 yrs. However, i'm not basing my judgment on any of that. I'm taking AB for what he really is. AB is a weapon and when used properly it will have a positive impact for this team. It's strange that fans and media haven't actually paid attention to the fact that we just added a legit weapon to the mix of players we already had. We desperately needed a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup. Despite what people think about AB, the one thing i'm confident he will be able to do is score the ball and open up the floor.

Starting lineup =
Melo     28.7 ppg    37 mpg
Felton   13.9 ppg    34 mpg
Tyson    10.4 ppg    33 mpg
 
Off the bench = 
JR       18.1 ppg    33.5 mpg
STAT     14.2 ppg    23.5 mpg

Now we're adding AB, Beno and MWP to that mix. Also an improved Shump could be huge this year. I think Shump could avg 12 pts this year. Beno should give this team a little more than Kidd was able to scrape together and be stroner at the end of the year as well. In any event it appears to me that this team is even more potent this year than last year in a number of areas. Younger with more depth. IMO the goal was to improve the talent around Melo and I think they have.

Look we are all excited for the start of the season and we all want this team to win in the postseason and even shock miami. I actually felt last year was a big oppurtunity missed by us. I like the beno and Artest additions. In regards to Bargnani i have said all along that i hope he finally lives up to his great pootential but i need to see it first

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:People really do need to stop with the idea that Melo isn't a franchise player. There may be better ones, but he qualifies. Right now I agree that this team is more like the Mavs model than anything else, but that's not a bad thing. The Pacers almost got to the finals with NO superstar. There's more to it than that.

I feel Bargnani will be the 2nd star Melo has needed. I know that very few media and fans agree, but I think people are seriously underestimating Bargnani based on him not being able to live up to the #1 draft pick and his last 2 yrs. However, i'm not basing my judgment on any of that. I'm taking AB for what he really is. AB is a weapon and when used properly it will have a positive impact for this team. It's strange that fans and media haven't actually paid attention to the fact that we just added a legit weapon to the mix of players we already had. We desperately needed a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup. Despite what people think about AB, the one thing i'm confident he will be able to do is score the ball and open up the floor.

Starting lineup =
Melo     28.7 ppg    37 mpg
Felton   13.9 ppg    34 mpg
Tyson    10.4 ppg    33 mpg
 
Off the bench = 
JR       18.1 ppg    33.5 mpg
STAT     14.2 ppg    23.5 mpg

Now we're adding AB, Beno and MWP to that mix. Also an improved Shump could be huge this year. I think Shump could avg 12 pts this year. Beno should give this team a little more than Kidd was able to scrape together and be stroner at the end of the year as well. In any event it appears to me that this team is even more potent this year than last year in a number of areas. Younger with more depth. IMO the goal was to improve the talent around Melo and I think they have.

Look we are all excited for the start of the season and we all want this team to win in the postseason and even shock miami. I actually felt last year was a big oppurtunity missed by us. I like the beno and Artest additions. In regards to Bargnani i have said all along that i hope he finally lives up to his great pootential but i need to see it first

If Bargnani actually lived up to his full potential then we'd be looking at a certain top team. I'm not even sure what his max is. I do know that when he was playing well and still not maxing out his potential, he was pretty good. 20/7 is probably about the best we can hope for this year and if he did that it would make a huge difference. To add an additional player capable of that is gonna have an impact. There's no way around that. AB is more than capable of doing that if we give him minutes and touches. What you have to keep in mind is that the only thing that messed with his production is injury. When healthy he's gonna put up points. I don't see the need for concern about him doing his part.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:People really do need to stop with the idea that Melo isn't a franchise player. There may be better ones, but he qualifies. Right now I agree that this team is more like the Mavs model than anything else, but that's not a bad thing. The Pacers almost got to the finals with NO superstar. There's more to it than that.

I feel Bargnani will be the 2nd star Melo has needed. I know that very few media and fans agree, but I think people are seriously underestimating Bargnani based on him not being able to live up to the #1 draft pick and his last 2 yrs. However, i'm not basing my judgment on any of that. I'm taking AB for what he really is. AB is a weapon and when used properly it will have a positive impact for this team. It's strange that fans and media haven't actually paid attention to the fact that we just added a legit weapon to the mix of players we already had. We desperately needed a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup. Despite what people think about AB, the one thing i'm confident he will be able to do is score the ball and open up the floor.

Starting lineup =
Melo     28.7 ppg    37 mpg
Felton   13.9 ppg    34 mpg
Tyson    10.4 ppg    33 mpg
 
Off the bench = 
JR       18.1 ppg    33.5 mpg
STAT     14.2 ppg    23.5 mpg

Now we're adding AB, Beno and MWP to that mix. Also an improved Shump could be huge this year. I think Shump could avg 12 pts this year. Beno should give this team a little more than Kidd was able to scrape together and be stroner at the end of the year as well. In any event it appears to me that this team is even more potent this year than last year in a number of areas. Younger with more depth. IMO the goal was to improve the talent around Melo and I think they have.

Look we are all excited for the start of the season and we all want this team to win in the postseason and even shock miami. I actually felt last year was a big oppurtunity missed by us. I like the beno and Artest additions. In regards to Bargnani i have said all along that i hope he finally lives up to his great pootential but i need to see it first

If Bargnani actually lived up to his full potential then we'd be looking at a certain top team. I'm not even sure what his max is. I do know that when he was playing well and still not maxing out his potential, he was pretty good. 20/7 is probably about the best we can hope for this year and if he did that it would make a huge difference. To add an additional player capable of that is gonna have an impact. There's no way around that. AB is more than capable of doing that if we give him minutes and touches. What you have to keep in mind is that the only thing that messed with his production is injury. When healthy he's gonna put up points. I don't see the need for concern about him doing his part.

My point is that fans have a right to try and be objective even if they love their team. I admit i get a a little biased about the Knicks at certain points but i try and be objective too. Im rooting for Bragnani but i dont think its unfair to have some concern over him

Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

callmened wrote:Heres the diff though. I agree that dallas team should be the blueprint. However the diff is dirk was surrounded with defensive players as role players. We hv guys like bargs and stat

I don't think Stat is playing very much if at all this year and I think Bargs will be a big addition for this team. Hopefully Bargs faults can be covered up some on defense.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:People really do need to stop with the idea that Melo isn't a franchise player. There may be better ones, but he qualifies. Right now I agree that this team is more like the Mavs model than anything else, but that's not a bad thing. The Pacers almost got to the finals with NO superstar. There's more to it than that.

I feel Bargnani will be the 2nd star Melo has needed. I know that very few media and fans agree, but I think people are seriously underestimating Bargnani based on him not being able to live up to the #1 draft pick and his last 2 yrs. However, i'm not basing my judgment on any of that. I'm taking AB for what he really is. AB is a weapon and when used properly it will have a positive impact for this team. It's strange that fans and media haven't actually paid attention to the fact that we just added a legit weapon to the mix of players we already had. We desperately needed a 2nd scoring option in the starting lineup. Despite what people think about AB, the one thing i'm confident he will be able to do is score the ball and open up the floor.

Starting lineup =
Melo     28.7 ppg    37 mpg
Felton   13.9 ppg    34 mpg
Tyson    10.4 ppg    33 mpg
 
Off the bench = 
JR       18.1 ppg    33.5 mpg
STAT     14.2 ppg    23.5 mpg

Now we're adding AB, Beno and MWP to that mix. Also an improved Shump could be huge this year. I think Shump could avg 12 pts this year. Beno should give this team a little more than Kidd was able to scrape together and be stroner at the end of the year as well. In any event it appears to me that this team is even more potent this year than last year in a number of areas. Younger with more depth. IMO the goal was to improve the talent around Melo and I think they have.

Look we are all excited for the start of the season and we all want this team to win in the postseason and even shock miami. I actually felt last year was a big oppurtunity missed by us. I like the beno and Artest additions. In regards to Bargnani i have said all along that i hope he finally lives up to his great pootential but i need to see it first

If Bargnani actually lived up to his full potential then we'd be looking at a certain top team. I'm not even sure what his max is. I do know that when he was playing well and still not maxing out his potential, he was pretty good. 20/7 is probably about the best we can hope for this year and if he did that it would make a huge difference. To add an additional player capable of that is gonna have an impact. There's no way around that. AB is more than capable of doing that if we give him minutes and touches. What you have to keep in mind is that the only thing that messed with his production is injury. When healthy he's gonna put up points. I don't see the need for concern about him doing his part.

My point is that fans have a right to try and be objective even if they love their team. I admit i get a a little biased about the Knicks at certain points but i try and be objective too. Im rooting for Bragnani but i dont think its unfair to have some concern over him

All I'm saying is that it's reasonable to expect a young player with great talent to play the way he's always played when he wasn't injured. He's healthy at this time. Barring an injury I fully expect Bargnani to play as he's always been capable of playing.

     pts  - reb
2009 15.4 - 5.3
2010 17.2 - 6.2
2011 21.4 - 5.2
2012 19.5 - 5.5
2013 12.7 - 3.7

If people want to go off only last years stats and assume he can't play anymore then so be it. I'm going with the concept that dude had torn ligaments in his elbow last year. If you don't think he is still capable of scoring 20 ppg then I don't know what to tell you. The only thing I question is whether he can improve on his rebounding.

gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.

Finestrg wrote:I hear what you're saying but it's just some formula that tends to work. It isn't COMPLETELY necessary. To me, Melo's a top-10 player in this league. Still the league's best scorer (kinda proved that last year). Plus the other parts of his game, while not LeBron-like, are all very sound -- his rebounding (find me a better offensive rebounding wing out there, esp. off his own misses), passing, etc.. We can win with him. There's no doubt in my mind. While he may not have the 2nd bonafide star next to him, he does have a lot of VERY GOOD role players around him now -- Chandler, Bargnani, JR Smith, Felton, Artest, Shumpert, Beno Udrih, hopefully a good young player in Hardaway Jr. that may get a lot of time early on, etc.. That's not even counting the rest of the roster -- those guys are good and will all help out too -- STAT (once healthy enough to contribute), Martin, Prigioni, maybe a Cole Aldrich/Jeremy Tyler, etc. This team is SOLID. We have a real good mix here on paper. Chandler, Udrih and Artest all have championship rings. Melo and Felton have won championships in college...Hopefully it all plays out the way we want and we really do have enough to compete for it all. It's hard not to feel good about things -- we had a 54-win team where we kept the core intact while ENHANCING around it substantially.

To me the team to emulate is the Dallas Mavericks' 2011 championship squad. That team had the one bonafide star in Dirk, a lot of solid secondary talent and excellent chemistry. Not out of the realm of possibility to expect the same thing from this 2013-14 Knicks team...I don't know about you guys but to me on paper at least (I know it's early on), our roster compares very favorably to that team. You can make a legit case that our club might be even better/deeper than that Dallas club. Now if that's really the case and we do perform better than that team, have even better secondary pieces in place, win just as many regular season games if not more, etc., then we'll truly be good enough to compete for a chip. That's all you can ask. Glass half full for me all the way..

i have one question... does the fact that kevin durant won the previous 3 scoring titles mean anything.. and lets be honest, carmelo won by tenths of a point, in basically was a concession by durant.. yet you guys sell this best scorer in the league... Would you agree with this if durant was a knick and carmelo was on another team, and the fans were saying he is the best scorer in the league?

I find this to be the oddest thing I continue to hear.....

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

The Melo topic will always be debatable. I believe he is a franchise player or close enough to it, but i know others don't and thats fine. Whether he is the 1st or 2nd "star" on this team, the purpose of the topic was who will be that other player and how we will obtain him, assuming that Mills has this as his plan. Until the Knicks no longer treat Melo like a franchise player, whether right or wrong, there is no point to beating that dead horse. I know many in here have the same opinion as you and thats fine, that discussion is just for another thread.

lets stop looking for that other "player" and put together a team of guys who can play both ends of the floor and who still have their best years ahead of them.. to me, that seems more like a plan that will have lasting benefits.. we are still trying to shortcut the process even though we realize we take one step forward to take 3 steps back...

Knixkik wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Mitch Richmond and glen Robinson were once considered franchise players too. I was gonna say Iverson but he accomplished more than Melo

You can't possibly be comparing Melo to them.

You mean because Melo gets a few more PPG?

Bonn1997 wrote:We need a franchise player first. Without that, there's no point in actually talking about having a 2nd star.

yea, I agree and we have been trying to duplicate this boston/ miami thing without there being a Garnett, pierce, Lebron or WAde avaiable on the market... I don't get it... it is like trying to duplicate a particular cake recipe without the ingredients available... so you have to make another cake and make it better..

I say first lets start getting guys who can play both ends of the floor, have some level of integrity, and intelligence.. both on and off the court... Develop a system or style of play, perfect it, stick by it and demand excellence.. weed out the one's who can't cut it, the special one's will thrive and out of that you can find a leader and hopefully a franchise player...

we just do things so wrong...we pine for other teams problems, we try to make players into something they are not, just because they put on a knicks uniform.. we put so much effort into trying to shortcut the process!!