This lowlight reel has taken some of the shine off James Harden for me:
http://deadspin.com/james-harden-really-...
I can't respect a player who doesn't give effort on defense. If you're slow that's one thing. Inattentive and disinterested. Yuck
Many people. myself included, have wished the Melo with all his offensive gifts was also
- more efficient on offense, a better passer, better at getting his in the flow of the game. Perhaps that last one is on Woody who the F knows what goes on at practice.
- a Paul George/Lebron level beast on defense as well
But perhaps that's unrealistic.
I get all googly eyed at James Harden and his seemingly automatic ability to get to the line, or the rim and shoot 3s.
But his D is atrocious. Dirk was never known for his defense. Kyrie Irving still isn't anywhere near an above average defender.
Other than Lebron and maybe Paul George are there any legit two way max players?
Nobody gets maxed out for playing D. Nobody is buying Tony Allen jerseys. Shane Battier has no endorsements.
Isn't it strange that all offense 0 D guys get maxed out regularly (Rashard Lewis) but all world defenders get Nathan?
Could a team win with 4 defenders who could spot up, 1 disher and 1 scorer (think Philly's FInals team)
Rondo $12M
Tony Allen $5M
Andre Iguodala $12M
Melo $22M
Asik $8M
0 spacing. all defense. YEAH!
As long as the way to win a basketball game is to score more points than the other team, offense will always carry more value than defense.
Knixkik wrote:As long as the way to win a basketball game is to score more points than the other team, offense will always carry more value than defense.
Well..you have to have more points than the other team.
If you held a team to 80 points a night and scored 85, could you win with a crappy offense given you make the other teams offense play even worse?
how many great two way players are there in the league? Maybe 5? Outscore your guy.
Harden's job is to make buckets. Howard's job is to stop them.
There is a difference between being a great defender and being able to get stops. Paul Pierce comes to mind. He was never locking his guys down, but he could get you stops. Look at what he did to Melo in the playoffs a couple years back. Melo lit it up all game with that monster performance but we lost late and Pierce forced him into a critical TO.
How's Kevin love's defense? From the outside looking in I would give him the max. Never really scored his defense when I watch him
EnySpree wrote:How's Kevin love's defense? From the outside looking in I would give him the max. Never really scored his defense when I watch him
His defense isn't great. Doesn't have the size to block shots. If you go to the bottom of this article you'll see he's guilty of letting his man beat him downcourt and then pointing at his teammates to cover.
Melo used to do the same thing where he'd fail to get over a screen and just say 'switch" and point at his teammate to get his guy.
Luckily that's exactly what Woodson wants here so...!
Tonight I'm going to just watch one player during a defensive possession and see how they act. First Melo, then JR, then the others.
if you can't be a two way player, or a great one, then you better as a max contract player be great on one side of the ball. Defensively and on the boards, you better be dwight or rodman...
on offense, Dirk or Durant.. super efficient, versatile on offense....
EnySpree wrote:How's Kevin love's defense? From the outside looking in I would give him the max. Never really scored his defense when I watch him
Not sure i want to give him the max, but one thing with him is that he is an elite level rebounder as well..
His defensive #s overall are good even if he had a bad game.
"Max contract" could mean a lot of different things. He makes $13 mil this season. There are plenty of max contract guys in the low to mid $20s per year.
Harden is the melo of the west.
SlimChin wrote:Harden is the melo of the west.
There are some similarities but Harden does much more damage from the line and gets more assists and steals. Melo might be a poor man's Harden.
SlimChin wrote:Harden is the melo of the west.
Yeah they are pretty close. Obviously you rather have Harden because he is younger and a more complete player, but Melo is a better rebounder and scorer overall. I think they contribute pretty evenly to team success. They are good enough to get a team to the playoffs without other all-star help, but not able to carry a team when they get there like Lebron, Kobe, etc.
so to compare 3 max types with holes in their games:
Melo
strengths: Ability to create one on one, too quick for 4s, too strong for 3s, can guard when he wants to
weaknesses: inconsistent effort/focus on defense, ball stopper/shot selection
Love
strengths: elite rebounder. despite taking a lot of shots, shoots a good %age from field , one of the best outlet passers
weaknesses: mental lapses on defense, doesn't block many shots for a guy who's 6'10"
Harden
strengths: ability to create on on one, gets to line at will, decent passer
weaknesses: also a bit of a low % chucker, atrocious defense
I think of the three I might like Kevin Love the best by a small margin. All 3 of them aren't great at defense. They can all score. Love is the one of the best in the league at rebounding. Harden might be the best in the league outside of Durant at drawing fouls. Love also shoots a way higher %age than Harden/Melo and gets to the line almost as much as Harden but who knows what Harden and Love would look like playing with Ricky Rubio. Harden and Love are both younger than Melo and have more room to improve.
All 3 of them would be in the conversation for best player in the NBA if they played D like Andre Iguodala.
Knixkik wrote:SlimChin wrote:Harden is the melo of the west.
Yeah they are pretty close. Obviously you rather have Harden because he is younger and a more complete player, but Melo is a better rebounder and scorer overall. I think they contribute pretty evenly to team success. They are good enough to get a team to the playoffs without other all-star help, but not able to carry a team when they get there like Lebron, Kobe, etc.
it's the inefficient scoring and iso plays...
btw, harden and dwight howard are not winners. there i said it.
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:so to compare 3 max types with holes in their games:Melo
strengths: Ability to create one on one, too quick for 4s, too strong for 3s, can guard when he wants to
weaknesses: inconsistent effort/focus on defense, ball stopper/shot selection
Love
strengths: elite rebounder. despite taking a lot of shots, shoots a good %age from field , one of the best outlet passers
weaknesses: mental lapses on defense, doesn't block many shots for a guy who's 6'10"
Harden
strengths: ability to create on on one, gets to line at will, decent passer
weaknesses: also a bit of a low % chucker, atrocious defense
I think of the three I might like Kevin Love the best by a small margin. All 3 of them aren't great at defense. They can all score. Love is the one of the best in the league at rebounding. Harden might be the best in the league outside of Durant at drawing fouls. Love also shoots a way higher %age than Harden/Melo and gets to the line almost as much as Harden but who knows what Harden and Love would look like playing with Ricky Rubio. Harden and Love are both younger than Melo and have more room to improve.
All 3 of them would be in the conversation for best player in the NBA if they played D like Andre Iguodala.
this seems about right. I don't watch Harden or Love much. I find Melo deficient at D. Harden seems that way too. I can't say the same for Love (for me he falls into the Pierce category). Does that seem right?
it comes down to the general principle of positive-sum, zero-sum, and negative sum play. this chart from last season ranks players according to RAPM, or "regularized adjusted plus minus" and is perhaps the most accurate measure of a player's effectiveness when taking into account both ends of the floor. when you look at the chart bear in mind the salary of the player to further get a notion if he is providing value.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/rat...
dk7th wrote:it comes down to the general principle of positive-sum, zero-sum, and negative sum play. this chart from last season ranks players according to RAPM, or "regularized adjusted plus minus" and is perhaps the most accurate measure of a player's effectiveness when taking into account both ends of the floor. when you look at the chart bear in mind the salary of the player to further get a notion if he is providing value.http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/rat...
Yea you are providing the data get people choose to ignore it and rather make blanket statements. I don't follow the other players in the league like I used to so I rather enhance the knowledge I have from the times I have seen them play with any any data that measures effectiveness
martin wrote:GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:so to compare 3 max types with holes in their games:Melo
strengths: Ability to create one on one, too quick for 4s, too strong for 3s, can guard when he wants to
weaknesses: inconsistent effort/focus on defense, ball stopper/shot selection
Love
strengths: elite rebounder. despite taking a lot of shots, shoots a good %age from field , one of the best outlet passers
weaknesses: mental lapses on defense, doesn't block many shots for a guy who's 6'10"
Harden
strengths: ability to create on on one, gets to line at will, decent passer
weaknesses: also a bit of a low % chucker, atrocious defense
I think of the three I might like Kevin Love the best by a small margin. All 3 of them aren't great at defense. They can all score. Love is the one of the best in the league at rebounding. Harden might be the best in the league outside of Durant at drawing fouls. Love also shoots a way higher %age than Harden/Melo and gets to the line almost as much as Harden but who knows what Harden and Love would look like playing with Ricky Rubio. Harden and Love are both younger than Melo and have more room to improve.
All 3 of them would be in the conversation for best player in the NBA if they played D like Andre Iguodala.
this seems about right. I don't watch Harden or Love much. I find Melo deficient at D. Harden seems that way too. I can't say the same for Love (for me he falls into the Pierce category). Does that seem right?
I didn't really think much of Paul Pierce till I saw what he did in the playoffs against Joe Johnson, Lebron and Kobe during that finals run. Didn't know he could play D like that or go toe to toe in exchanging crazy shots with Lebron and Kobe. I think it took a lot of years of losing in the regular season and losing in the playoffs before Pierce really was willing to do anything it took to win.
?: Wonder if KG kinda either by example of by speaking explicitly inspired him to give 100% on D.
Melo still has time to do that, although it's not fair to compare KG/Ray Allen to any of the 2 best teammates he's had on the Knicks. I do think he's getting awfully hungry to win a ring. Hungry enough to do whatever a good coach tells him to I hope.
Kevin Love still needs to just make it to the playoffs. I think that happens this season. Let's see if he steps up his game.
dk7th wrote:it comes down to the general principle of positive-sum, zero-sum, and negative sum play. this chart from last season ranks players according to RAPM, or "regularized adjusted plus minus" and is perhaps the most accurate measure of a player's effectiveness when taking into account both ends of the floor. when you look at the chart bear in mind the salary of the player to further get a notion if he is providing value.http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/rat...
I wasn't aware of that info. I'm going to look at it closely. Thanks.
