Knicks · A Reality for the Anti-Draft Crowd... (page 1)
In the 2004 draft, the Pacers picked Danny Granger with the 19th pick, while we selected Channing Frye with the 8th pick.
In the 2008 draft, the Pacers picked Roy Hibbert with the 17th pick, while we reached and picked Danilo Gallinari with the 6th pick. They also managed to acquire George Hill from the Spurs a year later who was picked with the 26th pick.
In the 2010 draft, they picked Paul George with the 10th pick. As much as we didn't have a pick, would it have been so far fetch'd to think that the Knicks could have sign and traded David Lee the season before or during the draft for a lottery pick? Meanwhile, in the second round we picked Andy Rautins and Landry Fields with the 38th and 39th pick, while the Pacers picked Lance Stephenson with the 40th pick.
Even some of the players they signed/traded for were available to us in their respective drafts. David West (18th pick), for instance, was available to us in the 2003 draft that we selected Mike Sweetney in (8th pick). In the 2002 draft, we used our 36th pick to select Milos Vujanic with Luis Scola still available (56th pick).
I suppose the point of this story is that we need to do a better job in keeping our picks and making them worth-wild. It just so happens to be one of the few things we do compartively well, which is why I would not be opposed to rebuilding with a slew of picks. We'd need some influx of front office talent to make it all work but it can and should be done. It really is the primary method for building a sustainable contender.
But your SOOOOO right!!!
holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..
nice try.. but the lakers with kobe, Boston with pierce and rondo, and the heat with wade... all drafted by those teams and won chips as well..
I mean really such a pathetic attempt...
holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..
Not only did those guys join franchise-type players, drafted by these organizations but some were traded for, using draft picks or prospects from those teams e.g. Jeff Green (drafted) and Wally Szerzbiak for Ray Allen; Al Jefferson (drafted), Delonte West (drafted), Gerald Green (drafted), etc for KG. Why should we expect to be the exception to this seemingly universal rule?
NardDogNation wrote:holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..Not only did those guys join franchise-type players, drafted by these organizations but some were traded for, using draft picks or prospects from those teams e.g. Jeff Green (drafted) and Wally Szerzbiak for Ray Allen; Al Jefferson (drafted), Delonte West (drafted), Gerald Green (drafted), etc for KG. Why should we expect to be the exception to this seemingly universal rule?
I'm not sure why this makes a big difference..Gallo was drafted and traded, So was Wilson...Wade was a free agent and decided to stay in Miami when Bron and Bosh joined him..They could have done the big three anywhere there was cap room..Point is, you can build thru the draft or through free agency ..Shaq forced his way to LA..Gasol was a gift from a former GM..A while ago, the Sixers bought Doc for cash from the Nets and got Moses later..Pistons got different pieces here and there..Not sure there is a holy grail to a ring..
holfresh wrote:NardDogNation wrote:holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..Not only did those guys join franchise-type players, drafted by these organizations but some were traded for, using draft picks or prospects from those teams e.g. Jeff Green (drafted) and Wally Szerzbiak for Ray Allen; Al Jefferson (drafted), Delonte West (drafted), Gerald Green (drafted), etc for KG. Why should we expect to be the exception to this seemingly universal rule?
I'm not sure why this makes a big difference..Gallo was drafted and traded, So was Wilson...Wade was a free agent and decided to stay in Miami when Bron and Bosh joined him..They could have done the big three anywhere there was cap room..Point is, you can build thru the draft or through free agency ..Shaq forced his way to LA..Gasol was a gift from a former GM..A while ago, the Sixers bought Doc for cash from the Nets and got Moses later..Pistons got different pieces here and there..Not sure there is a holy grail to a ring..
You try to name teams and conveniently overlook the fact that ALL of them drafted their franchise players e.g. the Lakers and Kobe, Pistons with Isiah and Dumars, etc. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that all champions (not including the 2004 Pistons) drafted a franchise caliber player, along with several role players?
holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.
Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...
tkf wrote:Kobe was a trade but those teams did have some luck in the draft as well. I think when you look at those teams they all have at least two stars. Whatever it takes to get a second star, having more than one seems to be the key to success. Boston and Miami traded for two.holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..nice try.. but the lakers with kobe, Boston with pierce and rondo, and the heat with wade... all drafted by those teams and won chips as well..
I mean really such a pathetic attempt...
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...
Donnie had nothing to use to attract the FAs to NY. That's the result of a decade of bad planning.
I definitely don't remember you opposing the Amare deal when it happened but I could be wrong.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...
Donnie had nothing to use to attract the FAs to NY. That's the result of a decade of bad planning.
I definitely don't remember you opposing the Amare deal when it happened but I could be wrong.
It's was Killa and myself to speak out against it...
holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
In what fantasy land did Shaq go to LA and by some Herculean effort win a championship by himself? Kobe was with him every step of the way and was really the one carrying the team in the 4th in all those close playoff games. There's a reason why he's a first ballot Hall of Famer and arguably one of the top 10 players in NBA history. You then overlook the same situation with Shaq in Miami, who had Dwayne Wade. And how did Miami manage to get Shaq? Wasn't Caron Butler, their 2002 draft pick, central to that deal?
Point to any championship team and they ALL have drafted a significant portion of their core. Even looking at the NBA landscape today. Each and every contender has followed the same recipe. Is that a coincidence? You keep pointing to Miami as some aberration but do you realize that they drafted Dwayne Wade? He may have been a free agent in 2010 but he was the first of the big 3 to sign and serve as the bait for the other two, both of whom he had been close friends with. Was that a coincidence too?
Bonn1997 wrote:If you say so. I know I spoke out against it but I don't remember who else did. I thought you were a hardcore supporter of it. I don't really recall you opposing any of the organizations major moves but I'll take your word for it.
I was against Donnie, MDA lack of defense, his pick and roll offense, Amare's contract and knees..I even started a thread saying MDA will run Amare into the ground and saying Amare needs help..I will look for those post when I have time..
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...
It can't be considered a "very similar plan" if we didn't also have a the key component of the plan I.e. having a superstar still in his prime, attract two other stars/superstars. There's a reason why LeBron and Bosh went to Miami, when they stood to make more money in endorsements in New York.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:If you say so. I know I spoke out against it but I don't remember who else did. I thought you were a hardcore supporter of it. I don't really recall you opposing any of the organizations major moves but I'll take your word for it.I was against Donnie, MDA lack of defense, his pick and roll offense, Amare's contract and knees..I even started a thread saying MDA will run Amare into the ground and saying Amare needs help..I will look for those post when I have time..
Yeah, I knew you'd been against almost every coach. I just meant players when I said major moves. I went back to the May 2010 pages and it doesn't look like you were posting then
NardDogNation wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:It's a very weak argument in the sense that it made no difference whether or not they were drafted by that particular team..Divac was traded for Kobe on draft day..It's sheer luck that Shaq wanted to go to LA or the would be no ring..Shaq went to Miami for Wade to win..Wade, Bron, and Bosh could have gone anywhere and won, the fact that Wade was drafted by Miami made no difference because all three were free agents and decided to play on the same team..Could have easily decided on another city..If they all decided Cleveland then you would say Cleveland drafted Bron..It didn't matter in that particular case..It's not hard to admit anything ..U can win by building thru the draft but it's not the only way to build and ultimately win..
Clearly they didn't want to take their talents to Cleveland. It's not just a random 1 in 30 chance that Wade happened to stay in the city that drafted him and even brought to more stars to the city. They picked one of the cities that the three of them were drafted in. It was up to each of the three of them to convince the other two that their city was best, and Miami won out. I'd love to have those 1 in 3 odds. It's much better than the 0% chance that Dolan's starphucking will work.Dolan had a very similar plan, his problem was picking Donnie to execute that plan...Donnie pick a coach who only knew pick and roll basketball...They signed a guy with bad knees to a 5 year max deal...He got half a season basketball from him...Donnie and his coach is still revered here in circles that despises the owner, go figure...
It can't be considered a "very similar plan" if they key component of the plan I.e. having a superstar still in his prime, attract two other stars/superstars. There's a reason why LeBron and Bosh went to Miami, when they stood to make more money in endorsements in New York.
Yeah, A team that had only one player signed on their books...
CrushAlot wrote:tkf wrote:Kobe was a trade but those teams did have some luck in the draft as well. I think when you look at those teams they all have at least two stars. Whatever it takes to get a second star, having more than one seems to be the key to success. Boston and Miami traded for two.holfresh wrote:And who will write the story of the Lakers with Shaq, Boston with KG and Ray, Heat and Bron...These guys actually won Chips too..nice try.. but the lakers with kobe, Boston with pierce and rondo, and the heat with wade... all drafted by those teams and won chips as well..
I mean really such a pathetic attempt...
Boston and Miami definitely traded for two but they managed to do so by using guys they drafted to do so. Boston dealt their draft pick (Jeff Green) and Wally Szerzbiak for Ray Allen; while dealing Al Jefferson (draft pick), Delonte West (draft pick), Gerald Green (draft pick) and filler to get KG. Miami's method was more indirect but they managed to get their cap space and supplement their cache of picks by moving Michael Beasley (pick), Dorrell Wright (pick), DaQuan Cook (pick), the 17th pick in the 2010 draft and a few 2nd rounders for cap space. Then, to augment that core, they brought back guys like Mario Chalmers (pick), Udonis Haslem (pick), Joel Anthony (pick) and later added Norris Cole. All 4 guys were rotation players for them in 2011-2012, which makes it hard to deny their impact on the team. I agree that no one method leads to a championship but there seems to be no doubt that the draft is the key component for doing so.