EnySpree wrote:
this guy needs to get his shot first before trading Melo for Blake.
Just play Tyler at the 5, which is his projected position anyway. Even if it wasn't, I'd never pass on a sure thing for a "maybe".
Well with Paul out Griffin has a chance to solidify his place with the Clippers. He gets the chance to put the team on his back. They have a former starter in Collison who will get the nod now. Let's see what happens.
Blake is cheaper. He can be a price of the puzzle. You got picks and cap space to add pieces
Or let's give Melo $130 and watch him try to carry a loser to 10-22 for another 5+ years
gunsnewing wrote:NardDogNation wrote:gunsnewing wrote:That gives you Blake, 2014 1st rd pick, Your 2015 1st round pick to add to Shump, THJ, Murray and Tyler.Who knows maybe we even draft a great PG or C
Or add em with cap space and flexibility in 2015
Why would the Clippers be giving up picks, when they are the ones getting older?
To get Tyson and increase their ceiling
I get the fact we're giving up the better players but they are also a lot older. The better play is balanced by the longer term promise of Griffin and Jordan, which makes things square IMO. If we could still manage to get picks back, it'd be the first good move that the Knicks have made since trading for Latrell Sprewell and Marcus Camby in the same offseason. I could see the deal in principle happening but not with picks.
yellowboy90 wrote:Well with Paul out Griffin has a chance to solidify his place with the Clippers. He gets the chance to put the team on his back. They have a former starter in Collison who will get the nod now. Let's see what happens.
I doubt Griffin does any of that. They were in the same situation last year and went 6-6 or something ridiculous like that against mediocre teams (e.g. the Raptors).
I actually like the idea of the Melo and Chandler for Griffin and Deandre if we can also secure a pick.
We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.
So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.
NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
I seriously doubt this trade happens during the season unless the Clippers go on a serious losing streak with Paul out then I could see a Tyson & Melo/ Blake & Griifin swap. The more likely course is they give Blake the whole year with Paul to see how the team does in the playoffs. If Griffin comes up small then Paul will go to the front office and try a S&T with Melo.
The Knicks are not that far off really. They were banking on Shumpert making a leap but he didn't. They were expecting this Shumpert that has been playing the last two games. No one expects Shump to keep this up but they probably expected him to be a 15 pt guy with the potential to score in the 20s every once in a while. Oh well.
MS wrote:I actually like the idea of the Melo and Chandler for Griffin and Deandre if we can also secure a pick. We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.
So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.
We need another coach for this group... so if Melo goes so in Woody
Definitely. Woodson and his ISO half court 1978 offense would have to go
franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
MS wrote:I actually like the idea of the Melo and Chandler for Griffin and Deandre if we can also secure a pick. We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.
So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.
I'm not so much concerned with how we can build with Griffin, as much as I am how much we could get from trading Griffin. Just to beat a dead horse, trading him to Denver for our 2014 pick, Gallo, Chandler and Mozgov is extremely appealing (to me). It'd give us a shot of picking up the no.1 overall pick in one of the most talented drafts of all-time and give us some serviceable role players to surround the pick with. We'd suck badly enough that this move will also maximize our draft spot in 2015, which might have another franchise player for us to add.
NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.
Melo has always played on good teams.
Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.
but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.
knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.Melo has always played on good teams.
Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.
but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.
Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.
On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.
NardDogNation wrote:knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.Melo has always played on good teams.
Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.
but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.
Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.
On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.
That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.
But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.
But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.
The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.
NardDogNation wrote:EnySpree wrote:
this guy needs to get his shot first before trading Melo for Blake.
Just play Tyler at the 5, which is his projected position anyway. Even if it wasn't, I'd never pass on a sure thing for a "maybe".
I would rather go young at this point but Blake is a sure thing. Knicks still need to strip it down. They would need a new coach right away. That's still some of the things we need to do even before a trade is made. I'm a big Toure Murry fan right now but the knicks would have to figure out quick if they need to get Blake a point guard or roll with Toure. We all can't be on our knees bedding for rondo. Knicks would need a better plan than that
knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.Melo has always played on good teams.
Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.
but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.
Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.
On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.
That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.
But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.
The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.
Most of that "revamping" occurred on the back end of that roster. The key pieces (e.g. Marcus Camby, Nene, Chris Andersen, Nikola Tskvisigjlslbs (I know I misspelled his name)) were all there from the year before. The only major change was Andre Miller at point, that despite being a personal favorite of mine, was no star or guarantor of success. Remember that he hadn't even made the playoffs up until that point in his career and had been associated with some of the league's worse.
And I think there definitely is emerging evidence that Blake can't carry a team. I think his first season is inadmissible because no rookie should be expected to carry that burden. Still, when you look at the Clippers record without Paul, it ain't pretty especially when you consider the competition they had been playing. It's been a popular topic of conversation, some of which you could read here http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/2/14/398...
Even with CP3, Griffin goes through stretches of being a non-entity. Despite 4 seasons in the league, he's still very much the same player and has yet to commit a post move to memory, which Charles Barkley and Shaq comment on constantly. He puts up nice numbers but there have been players in the past that have and not translated to wins, despite having good players around them e.g. Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.
EnySpree wrote:NardDogNation wrote:EnySpree wrote:
this guy needs to get his shot first before trading Melo for Blake.
Just play Tyler at the 5, which is his projected position anyway. Even if it wasn't, I'd never pass on a sure thing for a "maybe".
I would rather go young at this point but Blake is a sure thing. Knicks still need to strip it down. They would need a new coach right away. That's still some of the things we need to do even before a trade is made. I'm a big Toure Murry fan right now but the knicks would have to figure out quick if they need to get Blake a point guard or roll with Toure. We all can't be on our knees bedding for rondo. Knicks would need a better plan than that
I totally agree. I don't even like Griffin's game but I do think we should get him because of the value he'd possess in a secondary trade with a small market team. Toure Murry and Jeremy Tyler, are keepers though in my opinion because they are low cost/low risk but have the potential to be valuable players in the league.
I'm also not content with this plan to trade for Rondo, since I know we don't have the assets to do so without severely handicapping ourselves. I'm also concerned about this 2015 free agent plan considering how badly we got burned in 2010. I think it's time we rebuild with a focus on maximizing our ability to make trades, free agents signings AND draft picks as opposed to just focusing on one of the three (which has been our M.O.).
clips might do this since Paul is out 3-5 weeks
NardDogNation wrote:knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:knickscity wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.
I doubt this has any chance of happening.
As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.
You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?
You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?
Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.Melo has always played on good teams.
Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.
but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.
Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.
On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.
That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.
But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.
The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.
Most of that "revamping" occurred on the back end of that roster. The key pieces (e.g. Marcus Camby, Nene, Chris Andersen, Nikola Tskvisigjlslbs (I know I misspelled his name)) were all there from the year before. The only major change was Andre Miller at point, that despite being a personal favorite of mine, was no star or guarantor of success. Remember that he hadn't even made the playoffs up until that point in his career and had been associated with some of the league's worse.
And I think there definitely is emerging evidence that Blake can't carry a team. I think his first season is inadmissible because no rookie should be expected to carry that burden. Still, when you look at the Clippers record without Paul, it ain't pretty especially when you consider the competition they had been playing. It's been a popular topic of conversation, some of which you could read here http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/2/14/398...
Even with CP3, Griffin goes through stretches of being a non-entity. Despite 4 seasons in the league, he's still very much the same player and has yet to commit a post move to memory, which Charles Barkley and Shaq comment on constantly. He puts up nice numbers but there have been players in the past that have and not translated to wins, despite having good players around them e.g. Al Jefferson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Zach Randolph(pre-Memphis), etc.
By this analogy Chris Paul cant carry a team either, where has a chris paul led team gone? nowhere.
Ultimately you need talent, and both those player are talent, good talent worth of being built around.
Blake isnt a post player, and former players have biases that has to be factored in as well....shaq calls lopez the best center in the nba because he doesnt like dwight.
