Knicks · Will Carmelo be a Knick next year (page 2)

Silverfuel wrote:I seriously hope you guys are right but I'm with BRIGGS. He is going to leave to join a contender.

I think its more the message to the front office. Put pressure on them to build this roster up. Its not Melo's job run the draft, or recruit or scout. His job is play ball and win games and he's delivered on that pretty damn well.

Everyone knows what it takes to contend. I would love to hear how we replace 30ppg. Even more Melo is respected around the league. Kobe and Lebron have publicly called him their peer. Kobe has said he's the hardest guy in the league to guard.

In any case the good part about Melo opting out is his options are very thin. Dont see many options that translate into him leaving

gunsnewing wrote:You need a defensive stopper at SF next to Melo. Jeff Green would work. I'm ok with that if we dodge teams like Indiana who just have too much size up front

This is the reason tweeters don't win championships. Guys who are to slow to guard SF's and too small to guard PFs

Trading Melo is not the end of the world. We can work on building a more conventional championship caliber team

Problem is our owner is a cornhole and satisfied with just making the playoffs

no. The problem is championship caliber teams have championship caliber players. Now if you say Melo isnt one OK, but how how how how are you going to add not one but TWO? Last year we played 2 below average PGs, a center who cant score unless he can dunk it and a revolving cast of vets who had a few weeks of NBA in them and we still won 54.

Has it been so long since you watched David Lee get us 20/10 on 55% a night only to lose 50+ games? The Bulls sole goal was to build another title team after MJ. They had a good GM. They had many super high picks... how did it work out? For ten years they watched Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Fizer, Jalen Rose.. how long before they got ONE GUY worth building around?

People are not realistic.

Maybe THjr is the next DWade. Lets just say... OK. Now we just need to get Shaq. Or Lebron.

Guns.. where is the talent coming from?

I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I think the big lineup with Melo, KMart and Bargs works. KMart fits on the floor with anyone. Some bigs just don't fit with Tyson. Bargs and Amare don't but Amare is a better fit with his post up game. Its interesting that Melo was more of a post up player with Tyson out and is more of a jump shooter with him back.

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

NYKBocker wrote:I would really look into trading with Houston. They are looking for that 3rd superstar to go along with Dwight and Harden. With Melo's recent play, we can dictate what we want. Asik, Lin, Parsons, Greg Smith is a good start plus picks. That package would make us a 2nd round team in the East. Imagine this lineup

C-Tyson
PF-Jeremy Tyler
SF-Parsons
SG-Shump
PG-Lin

Bench-Asik, Bargs, Amare, THJr, Pablo

You still would have a lot of assets to get better parts of future picks.

if you know anything about morey, you would understand he doesn't want a player like carmelo.. what they can use is a player like iggy.. someone who will defend on the wings, because the rockets have a lot of trouble there..

2/3/2014 2:37 PM
History is littered with guys like Melo who never won
Again this might all be fine with Dolan as long as we make the playoffs every year. 1st/2nd round exits and all
Maybe it's the most we can expect as New York fans
So that is what it comes down to. Are you ok with that or do you want to see a contender again that goes deep in the playoffs every year?

fishmike wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:I seriously hope you guys are right but I'm with BRIGGS. He is going to leave to join a contender.

I think its more the message to the front office. Put pressure on them to build this roster up. Its not Melo's job run the draft, or recruit or scout. His job is play ball and win games and he's delivered on that pretty damn well.

Everyone knows what it takes to contend. I would love to hear how we replace 30ppg. Even more Melo is respected around the league. Kobe and Lebron have publicly called him their peer. Kobe has said he's the hardest guy in the league to guard.

In any case the good part about Melo opting out is his options are very thin. Dont see many options that translate into him leaving

where did we have 30ppg to begin with? last person to average that for the knicks was Bernard king..my favorite knick, and when he was gone, we managed to end up doing well with ewing and crew....

replacing carmelo won't be hard at all.. as soon as you get a SF in here who defends, you are already in a better place..

Even more Melo is respected around the league. Kobe and Lebron have publicly called him their peer. Kobe has said he's the hardest guy in the league to guard.

And where is the value in that? does that win the knicks games? right now those words or so called "respect" don't mean squat.. the knicks record sucks, so how does that help? all of those things are just empty, they have zero value.. why put any stock in that?

kobe and lebron calling their peer is meaningless. Kobe is past his prime and hobbled...Lebron I never heard call carmelo his peer, but again that is meaningless, because guys like Durant, curry, George, are all putting pressure on the elites of the league... that is all that matters..

and as a knick fan, if you want to see the knicks get to that level, you should be putting stock in things like, character, winning, defense, leadership and playoff results.. those things are what matter... Derek fisher is also respected around the league.. and he may be available as well....

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

I don't see the wins now fish.. and if it is not enough for a title.. why tie up so much money in such a player? How does that make any sense? unless you are getting a cut of his salary, wishing for such things is utterly confusing...

let me ask this fish.. what is the worst thing that can happen to the knicks if they just let him walk? the worst thing? after you come up with that answer.. look at our current record and team with carmelo and the fact that we have no pick this year as well, and tell me, honestly tell me, will it be any worse than that?

Hey pretty much overwhelming sentiment that he stays. I think he's condo to either Phoenix or Lal. Watch Phoenix they have tons of space play open basketball and have a great team in place

its not about scoring 30 pts, it is about doing it in the flow of the offense, being able to get the ball in good spots and high FG %, not the ability to get his shot off at any time

Again, to pair with Melo, you need a SF/PF in the mold and versatility of a young Marion or current Battum, at least Wilson Chandler/Jeff Green type, with also

If we don't get a TOP tier quality PG, we need a SG that can also penetrate/facilitate/defend/ and hit a 3pter

PG
SG
C

being mobile/athletic, with a couple of great ball handler/penetrators, skilled players that all have the ability to play INSIDE and OUT on DEFENSE and OFFENSE, in an UPTEMPO system, with the ability to PUSH THE BALL

We also need a couple of good players off the bench as well

mostly

PG
G/F
F
PF/C
C

with the rest being a combination of development players with potential and vets that would be ready to contribute and always ready

That was what Team USA had and that was why Melo was successful, however, those type of players do not come cheap and we would not be able to add such players if we paid Melo this summer rather than in 2016 or at least 2015 where he doesn't opt this summer's 25m contract but say takes 15m per year with another 2nd star like Kevin Love and either get a 3rd star or 2-3 solid role players

At some point we will have to develop our own players (not necessary draft) like Jeremy Tyler, Lin, Novak, etc....
James Johnson was one player I have been targeting for years right now and I wish the Knick's would have listened to me
I also said Melo playing PF would open things up for him and the rest of the team since Dantoni was here, causing a mismatch with his abilities and our shooters at the time

Billups
TD (almost most 3pt shots made his rookie year)
Shawnee Williams corner 3pter

Bill Walker got hot at times
Fields was great prior to the trade but SF was his best position and missed penetration with ball and player movement, with players earning a step for each other or a wide open shot

Exactly Ron and even after all that with the Marion type, do we beat Indiana with Melo facing up against west, Hibbert and Bynum? He's not guarding George that's for sure

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You need a defensive stopper at SF next to Melo. Jeff Green would work. I'm ok with that if we dodge teams like Indiana who just have too much size up front

This is the reason tweeters don't win championships. Guys who are to slow to guard SF's and too small to guard PFs

Trading Melo is not the end of the world. We can work on building a more conventional championship caliber team

Problem is our owner is a cornhole and satisfied with just making the playoffs

no. The problem is championship caliber teams have championship caliber players. Now if you say Melo isnt one OK, but how how how how are you going to add not one but TWO? Last year we played 2 below average PGs, a center who cant score unless he can dunk it and a revolving cast of vets who had a few weeks of NBA in them and we still won 54.

Has it been so long since you watched David Lee get us 20/10 on 55% a night only to lose 50+ games? The Bulls sole goal was to build another title team after MJ. They had a good GM. They had many super high picks... how did it work out? For ten years they watched Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Fizer, Jalen Rose.. how long before they got ONE GUY worth building around?

People are not realistic.

Maybe THjr is the next DWade. Lets just say... OK. Now we just need to get Shaq. Or Lebron.

Guns.. where is the talent coming from?

Obviously there isn't one person you can just point to and say this man will come to NY and bring a championship. Whether we keep Melo or not, a championship will have to come from many smart trades, drafting, and signings.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

You're picking the direction of the franchise for the next 5 years (since Melo will get a huge 5 year deal) based on one summer's FA class?

BRIGGS wrote:Hey pretty much overwhelming sentiment that he stays. I think he's condo to either Phoenix or Lal. Watch Phoenix they have tons of space play open basketball and have a great team in place

Pho is tough... thats a great place to play. Time will tell.

If you want to beat the Pacers, you have to play small. Make West guard someone. Thats why having a guy like Jeff Green would be perfect with Melo. PERFECT

looking back in my earlier post here, Melo has a lot of other options to WALK AWAY from NYK

Pros in staying in NYK
=============================

1- only money MAX per year and more raises each year

2- Woodson's tailored offense that is great for his numbers but horrible for WINNING in play offs (pro and con)
endorsements (unless another big market team gets in)

3- 1 guaranteed extra year which he probably would want another opt out in 2-3 years again anyway

4- whatever bonus's Dolan has prepared for him in the future

Now if Dolan gives him an under table deal like to the Smith brothers, while giving him a maxish extension in 2016 while taking less in 2015 (10m range) and NOT opting out this summer, and giving him a piece of the pie in current and future BUSINESS deals/partnership opportunities, sell his sneakers at MSG while Melo gets majority of the cut, and other TV endorsements/MSG TV deals etc.. Dolan should use this side of his networking/business opportunities to MAKE STARS WANT TO come to NYK for future players even at a lower salary like how the show "New Beginnings"

I think Melo should reconsider being the face of the franchise till he retires and recruit, take less money, continue to work on his game and stay in NBA shape for a couple of years, and it will pay off BIG time

Cons of staying in NYK
===========================

1- less chance of ever winning

2- extra more media bashing

3- less ways of acquiring players to pair with him with CBA structure

4- less draft picks to improve because we traded many away already

5- failing in 2014-15 to be a contending team (we will not be better than the Pacer's next year)

Also, I would not be surprised if a team like Sun's (also well established medical staff) or Philly which has many draft picks and cap room and has some nice YOUNG players to work with SIGNs both Lebron and Melo, while sending out some contracts with assets to fit them both at a high salary

I don't know about you guys but it seems like to me with Lebron's words to DWADE on his birthday "We will remain bro's for life nomatter what"
Seems to me that he is thinking about leaving to chase more rings and already has something in his mind to beat Jordan's legacy after Jordan's comments about Kobe/Jordan and rings
Especially if Pacers beat out the Heat this year, which I think is likely with the health of Wade, and Greg Oden thus far

Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Briggs doesn't want to give any % to LOSE MELO for NOTHING or pay him a max salary that will not allow us to build a contending team if he opts out this summer in order to keep him
And that is where I stand as well

I didn't think we needed to do the deal for Melo at the time and it set us back
With the draft picks we gave up, along with the cap space (Eddy Curry's expiring), and selling high on our players at the time instead of low to Denver, we would have been able to continue to add assets to Wait for the next ALL STAR which could have been CP3 or D12 in addition to the 5 MLE acquisition and keeping our amnesty on STAT

Heck, in addition, we might have possibly even been able to trade Gallo for Rudy Gay at some point and get a draft pick back, along with moving Felton/MosGoV for picks, even AR for a 2nd rounder at the time
I preferred Wilson Chandler over Gallo because Gallo had greater value but I thought Chandler was always more under rated and the better versatile defender/rebounder/ better post game

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

I don't see the wins now fish.. and if it is not enough for a title.. why tie up so much money in such a player? How does that make any sense? unless you are getting a cut of his salary, wishing for such things is utterly confusing...

let me ask this fish.. what is the worst thing that can happen to the knicks if they just let him walk? the worst thing? after you come up with that answer.. look at our current record and team with carmelo and the fact that we have no pick this year as well, and tell me, honestly tell me, will it be any worse than that?

we have seen the worst, and I have discussed this ad nauseum with folks who are open for discussion. You go back to 25 win seasons where you wonder if the stats your rotation players are real or not. Remember David Lee's 20/12/55% season? (29 wins). Remember Jamal Crawford scoring 20ppg and shooting 45% from 3? (32 wins). Remember Eddy's 20ppg on 57% shooting? (33 wins)

Whats funny TFK is you cant even see whats happening. Without Melo this is a 20 win team. Once you get to that point its ground zero. How's Cle doing? Whats their record? They have the kind of high caliber talent you covet but cant win. Why? How's Denver doing? All that cap space and influx of young talent should be getting them much father than when they were dragging that anchor Melo around right? Go tell me their average win total with and without Melo.

You have special needs and clear issues with reality, so I dont expect this discussion to make a difference, but we have gone through exactly the scenario you so dream of. It sucked. Go tell yourself otherwise. Then have dk come over to hold you.

And yes... you have chosen a good time to say "I dont see the wins." A time when the offseason moves yielded nothing and the guy who built up the roster to 54 wins was fired, but thats MElo's fault as well I am sure. Hee haw

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Hey pretty much overwhelming sentiment that he stays. I think he's condo to either Phoenix or Lal. Watch Phoenix they have tons of space play open basketball and have a great team in place

Pho is tough... thats a great place to play. Time will tell.

And if we had a front office that actually had Balls, we'd trade Melo there for a bunch of first round picks, and rebuild with a fresh start and as much youth as possible.