Knicks · Will Carmelo be a Knick next year (page 3)

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Hey pretty much overwhelming sentiment that he stays. I think he's condo to either Phoenix or Lal. Watch Phoenix they have tons of space play open basketball and have a great team in place

Pho is tough... thats a great place to play. Time will tell.

And if we had a front office that actually had Balls, we'd trade Melo there for a bunch of first round picks, and rebuild with a fresh start and as much youth as possible.

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

I don't see the wins now fish.. and if it is not enough for a title.. why tie up so much money in such a player? How does that make any sense? unless you are getting a cut of his salary, wishing for such things is utterly confusing...

let me ask this fish.. what is the worst thing that can happen to the knicks if they just let him walk? the worst thing? after you come up with that answer.. look at our current record and team with carmelo and the fact that we have no pick this year as well, and tell me, honestly tell me, will it be any worse than that?

we have seen the worst, and I have discussed this ad nauseum with folks who are open for discussion. You go back to 25 win seasons where you wonder if the stats your rotation players are real or not. Remember David Lee's 20/12/55% season? (29 wins). Remember Jamal Crawford scoring 20ppg and shooting 45% from 3? (32 wins). Remember Eddy's 20ppg on 57% shooting? (33 wins)

Whats funny TFK is you cant even see whats happening. Without Melo this is a 20 win team. Once you get to that point its ground zero. How's Cle doing? Whats their record? They have the kind of high caliber talent you covet but cant win. Why? How's Denver doing? All that cap space and influx of young talent should be getting them much father than when they were dragging that anchor Melo around right? Go tell me their average win total with and without Melo.

You have special needs and clear issues with reality, so I dont expect this discussion to make a difference, but we have gone through exactly the scenario you so dream of. It sucked. Go tell yourself otherwise. Then have dk come over to hold you.

And yes... you have chosen a good time to say "I dont see the wins." A time when the offseason moves yielded nothing and the guy who built up the roster to 54 wins was fired, but thats MElo's fault as well I am sure. Hee haw

David Lee isn't really a great example - because he is putting up great numbers and a winning team.

You dump Melo and draft well - and yes, we have 3-5 years of 20-30 win teams - but hopefully you build a foundation that can be the next Miami/Indiana/San Antonio/Dallas/LA Lakers/Clippers in five years.

Or we keep Melo and are locked in to mediocrity for the next five years and then we suck after that.

Mediocrity if we're lucky.

What happens when Melo wears out? Then we have Amar'e 2.0 Allan Houston 2.0.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Hey pretty much overwhelming sentiment that he stays. I think he's condo to either Phoenix or Lal. Watch Phoenix they have tons of space play open basketball and have a great team in place

Pho is tough... thats a great place to play. Time will tell.

And if we had a front office that actually had Balls, we'd trade Melo there for a bunch of first round picks, and rebuild with a fresh start and as much youth as possible.

Papabear Says

We've tried that for over 40 years WHAT! WHAT! Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, and Melo. The only super stars in 40 years. So what make you think trading Melo will be different?

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

Agreed

Melo leaving would be the ultimate slap in Dolans face after all the assets we gave up to get him here

Fortunately Melo is coming off a 62pt game so we get some value back if we do trade him

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

The one unacceptable?
A starphuck that adds bigger, longer contracts is far worse.
I'd rather get assets for Melo but there's nothing horrible about having max cap space starting in 2015.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

The one unacceptable?
A starphuck that adds bigger, longer contracts is far worse.
I'd rather get assets for Melo but there's nothing horrible about having max cap space starting in 2015.

A top five lotto pick in 2015 & cap space? As long as we don't waste the space on a signing like Amar'e who ends up hurt/under-performing?

Yea - Melo leaving to me is not the end of the world! Him staying and signing for $30M and taking up all the space- that would be awful!

franco12 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

The one unacceptable?
A starphuck that adds bigger, longer contracts is far worse.
I'd rather get assets for Melo but there's nothing horrible about having max cap space starting in 2015.

A top five lotto pick in 2015 & cap space? As long as we don't waste the space on a signing like Amar'e who ends up hurt/under-performing?

Yea - Melo leaving to me is not the end of the world! Him staying and signing for $30M and taking up all the space- that would be awful!

Agreed, 60m is the entire salary cap, not many players are even worth that amount, if you don't have the players around them which we DONT and wouldn't be able to sign
It is not about "hating on Melo" or the "numbers" Melo gets, or replacing his pts/rebounds, at that price/age we cannot build a contender

With Parson's comment about MOVING better without Harden and Lin's comment about just hitting the open man and knowing you will get the ball if you are open
There seems to be a little bit of a rift and unhappiness with Harden and some of the other players

For Melo but has to be sign and trade in the summer so the salaries would add up, I am not even sure if Asik and Lin's 3rd year is 8m or 15m anymore...
Melo gets to go to a contending team and form one of the best trio's in the game today, with Harden, Melo, D12, with less tax for salary too
Think we have to throw in Felton or/and some other contracts to add up if it is 15m each for Lin and Asik
Can we also get rid of MWP and/or Pablo too, maybe that is too much, I guess either Felton or Pablo/MWP
In addition to have Morey give us back some picks that they don't need, buy 2 2nd round picks for Philly/NYK's and we give them the 3m we could use
2 future 1st rounders but I would be very happy with 1 and 2 2nd round picks if we get rid of the bad contracts in Felton, MPW, Pablo
Maybe get Isiah Cannon from them
Build up JR's value and send his ass packing too when he is ripe

If Houston does this trade, they also get the 5m MLE to use this summer in addition to

Beverley
Harden
Melo
Terrence Jones
D12

5m MLE
Felton?
Aaron Brooks
Donatas Motiejunas
Ommri Casspi
Francisco Garcia

Isaiah Canaan
Robert Covington
their own 1st rounder this summer
NYK's 2nd round pick
Phillies 2nd round pick

Houston PICKS OWNED, in addition to all of their own picks 1st and 2nd rounders except for one 2nd round pick in 2015
================================================================================================================================

2014 second round draft pick from New York
New York's 2014 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

2014 second round draft pick from Philadelphia
Philadelphia's 2014 2nd round pick to Houston protected for selections 31-55 (if this pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyed, then Philadelphia's obligation to Houston will be extinguished) [Houston-Philadelphia, 7/13/2013]

2015 second round draft pick from L.A. Clippers
L.A. Clippers' 2015 2nd round pick to Houston (via Toronto) protected for selections 31-50 and 56-60 (if this pick falls within either of its protected ranges and is therefore not conveyed, then the L.A. Clippers' obligation to Houston will be extinguished) [L.A. Clippers-Toronto, 1/7/2009 and then Houston-Toronto, 7/28/2010]

2015 second round draft pick from New York
New York's 2015 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-New York, 7/11/2012]

2015 second round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota will convey the less favorable of its 2015 2nd round pick and Denver's 2015 2nd round pick to Houston (via Portland) [Denver-Minnesota-New York, 2/22/2011 and then Minnesota-Portland, 6/27/2011 and then Houston-Portland, 7/10/2013]

2017 second round draft pick from Portland
Portland's 2017 2nd round pick to Houston [Houston-Portland, 7/10/2013]

Picks Houston OWEs OUT
===============================

they own all their own picks except one 2nd round pick to Philly

2014 second round draft pick to Philadelphia
Houston's 2014 2nd round pick to Philadelphia (via Milwaukee) [Houston-Milwaukee, 6/27/2012 and then Milwaukee-Philadelphia, 6/27/2013]

For Knicks
===================

For us, just collect assets, get rid of contracts beyond 2015, and just fill out our roster with quality young players that play TEAM ball
I would do Linsanity all over again but I think we have to move Chandler while he still could bring us back SOMETHING
Is it too much to ask for Melo?
Houston does have a lot of picks, some of which we can use
and if Asik and Lin are such "HORRIBLE contracts" at 15m per year, we should be fully compensated for it, especially when they form their CORE of big names and STAR POWER

They can keep this year's draft pick, so they can still replenish their bench with the MLE, 1st rounder, and Terrene Jones looks like he is actually part of their big 4 to me
While we have to pay Chandler Parsons in order to keep him a decent amount

With that team, I think Lin will still draw a crowd for ticket sales, while we still rebuild for 2015 with bird rights
For Lin he seems to play his best ball in the clutch moments especially since he thrives with confidence, support, and energy by the fans at MSG
He made player's happy and I really enjoyed the way the team played on both ends when he was here
Tim Hardaway, AB, Amare, Tyler, and JR should thrive under both Parsons/Lin's IQ and abilities

If we have Asik, I guess we have to get rid of Chandler, although I would have loved to have 3 Chandler's on the NYK's

Chandler/Iman and a bad contract with either Felton or MWP/PABLO, with expirings, 2 mid/late 1st rounders or 1 late 1st rounder and 2 mid 2nd rounders and 1 young player with upside that isnt eligible for an extension till after 2015, and SCRUBS that don't go beyond 2015 is all I ask

Now explain to me again why Melo wants to stay here?

Wally just said. Too many guards being rotated in and out. Although Hardaway got 28mins it's hard to be looking over your shoulder

When Woodson has less players guys know their role and know what is expect of them

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

The one unacceptable?
A starphuck that adds bigger, longer contracts is far worse.
I'd rather get assets for Melo but there's nothing horrible about having max cap space starting in 2015.

Nothing horrible? No star wants to play for a 20-win team, they're certainly not going to come here to play under the genius basketball mind that is Woodson. Who are we signing with that money? Lamarcus freaking Aldrich? Please........

He 100% needs to be traded or resigned, the alternative is a complete disaster. A gutter team with no talent, no youth, and no picks. Yeah real attractive to a superstar. The only guys you're getting in that situation are money hungry losers like Josh Smith that don't give two shits about winning. Have fun with Josh Smith Bonn.

Carmelo to Detroit for Andre Drummond, Stuckey (expiring), Villanueva (expiring) and 2014 or 2015 1st round pick (whichever they end up owning).

or

Carmelo + K. Martin + Beno to LA Clippers for Deandre Jordan, Matt Barnes (expiring), Jared Dudley, Darren Collison + 2014 + 2016 1st round picks.

Trade Chandler for picks/guards, possibly Lowry, Conley, whoever becomes available.

Aim to put together a real team in 2015.

codeunknown wrote:Carmelo to Detroit for Andre Drummond, Stuckey (expiring), Villanueva (expiring) and 2014 or 2015 1st round pick (whichever they end up owning).

or

Carmelo + K. Martin + Beno to LA Clippers for Deandre Jordan, Matt Barnes (expiring), Jared Dudley, Darren Collison + 2014 + 2016 1st round picks.

Trade Chandler for picks/guards, possibly Lowry, Conley, whoever becomes available.

Aim to put together a real team in 2015.

DEtroit wont do it as its unlikely Melo would stay there.

LA wont give up their only C and half their team

Ive come up more like this Melo and JR Smith to Phoenix for Alex Len Archie Goodwin Emeka Okafor draft picks 2014 2 #1s and 2016 + 2nd rounders in 2014 and 2015

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Briggs you want to keep or trade Melo? To me the tea leaves point to you wanting him traded for picks and cap space

Its a doubled edged sword--it would be easier to win if Melo stayed but there are many variables there as well. The worst blow to the franchise would be a melo leaving for no compensation--that to me is the one unacceptable choice but than again only Melo dictates this.

The one unacceptable?
A starphuck that adds bigger, longer contracts is far worse.
I'd rather get assets for Melo but there's nothing horrible about having max cap space starting in 2015.

Nothing horrible? No star wants to play for a 20-win team, they're certainly not going to come here to play under the genius basketball mind that is Woodson. Who are we signing with that money? Lamarcus freaking Aldrich? Please........

He 100% needs to be traded or resigned, the alternative is a complete disaster. A gutter team with no talent, no youth, and no picks. Yeah real attractive to a superstar. The only guys you're getting in that situation are money hungry losers like Josh Smith that don't give two shits about winning. Have fun with Josh Smith Bonn.

At that point, we'd only owe one more first round pick (2016). It's almost a blank slate. No star is coming here this off-season anyway. We don't have cap space or trade assets. It's basically this roster next season, possibly after some lateral moves are made. If we're going to be a sub .500 team anyway, as might as well do it while rebuilding. I don't know why you're so focused on this one off-season though. You're talking about a gigantic 5 year deal for Melo. We need to be in this for the long-haul and put ourselves in position to eventually attract top FAs.

BRIGGS wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Carmelo to Detroit for Andre Drummond, Stuckey (expiring), Villanueva (expiring) and 2014 or 2015 1st round pick (whichever they end up owning).

or

Carmelo + K. Martin + Beno to LA Clippers for Deandre Jordan, Matt Barnes (expiring), Jared Dudley, Darren Collison + 2014 + 2016 1st round picks.

Trade Chandler for picks/guards, possibly Lowry, Conley, whoever becomes available.

Aim to put together a real team in 2015.

DEtroit wont do it as its unlikely Melo would stay there.

LA wont give up their only C and half their team

Ive come up more like this Melo and JR Smith to Phoenix for Alex Len Archie Goodwin Emeka Okafor draft picks 2014 2 #1s and 2016 + 2nd rounders in 2014 and 2015

I think your scenario brings up the same question regarding if Melo would re-sign. It would be a decent haul, but I'd hope to get at least one proven young commodity. For me, trading Carmelo is geared towards maximizing a return before his downslope, and not so much because I think he would voluntarily leave. I think, given the financial incentive, its quite likely he'll actually stay, and, in the absence of a "clear cut" deal, there are situations in which we'd be better off re-signing him.

codeunknown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Carmelo to Detroit for Andre Drummond, Stuckey (expiring), Villanueva (expiring) and 2014 or 2015 1st round pick (whichever they end up owning).

or

Carmelo + K. Martin + Beno to LA Clippers for Deandre Jordan, Matt Barnes (expiring), Jared Dudley, Darren Collison + 2014 + 2016 1st round picks.

Trade Chandler for picks/guards, possibly Lowry, Conley, whoever becomes available.

Aim to put together a real team in 2015.

DEtroit wont do it as its unlikely Melo would stay there.

LA wont give up their only C and half their team

Ive come up more like this Melo and JR Smith to Phoenix for Alex Len Archie Goodwin Emeka Okafor draft picks 2014 2 #1s and 2016 + 2nd rounders in 2014 and 2015

I think your scenario brings up the same question regarding if Melo would re-sign. It would be a decent haul, but I'd hope to get at least one proven young commodity. For me, trading Carmelo is geared towards maximizing a return before his downslope, and not so much because I think he would voluntarily leave. I think, given the financial incentive, its quite likely he'll actually stay, and, in the absence of a "clear cut" deal, there are situations in which we'd be better off re-signing him.

I'm not sure. Carmelo has all the opportunity to say "listen Im a Knick and Im staying here and put this to bed but he just does not do it. I agree it would be better to sign melo for something just under the super max but how about the realistic scenario he just flat out walks and we get nothing.

I think the question is can this team do something now to give it a jolt in the arm to hopefully persuade Carmelo to stay? I think now Im leaning towards the coach being one of the problems BUT is there a coach out there available who can do much better?

Lionel "the train" Hollins

why aren't we asking - are we better with Melo, or with the assets we can aquire by trading Melo because we can't have it both ways. It's the only part of the equation that we control. I like Melo, but I hate this team. I don't care what he does. I care what we do and I want the team improved. Trade his azz for pics/young talent/expiring contracts and dump some of our dead weight as well.

trade him yesterday. anything is better than facing the certain fate that you will remain a mediocre also-ran with this guy. we don't need him to prove that here over this part of his career.

I can't call it, but if I had to guess, I would say that he is gone at the end of the season.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I'm leaning towards keeping Melo and building around him. Adding a PG, SF and C if we trade Tyson. I just worried about the defensive end. If you want to go big to match up with the indiana's you have to move Melo back to the 3 where he he is a huge liability defensively. He is rebounding at a great rate at the 4 but he will get eaten alive by the David wests of th world.

I can see where people still rather have Melo and build around him than just cap space and picks. Like you said we need a mixture of everything but I think you are making Melo out to be a cornerstone player like Ewing was. Melo is a great scorer but too many holes. Only one year in college. Lacks basketball IQ and isnt in shape like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron

I'm open to whatever works. This will be the last chance ai give this front office to build a team that contends every year. We F it up again and I'm done

I would have no problem letting Melo walk and preparing the roster to be able to offer THREE guys close to max, or two guys max and a third guy $10mm (Like a Lowry type).

But only if the guys are there to get. I mean the LBJ year there was Joe Johnson, Wade, Bosh, Amare and a few others maybe Dirk? Point is there were like 7-8 guys you would be happy to walk away with, or at least worth the gamble.

I dont see that kind of FA class, I see Aldridge, Rondo and some role players.

Im not trying to be an ass (that happens naturally). Im being honest. Melo's game has faults, but he's top tier talent that translates into wins. Not enough for a title? Fair beef.. but I dont see any plan B thats worth a fart in the wind.

Im open to hearing it... Lets see. Whats feasable??

I don't see the wins now fish.. and if it is not enough for a title.. why tie up so much money in such a player? How does that make any sense? unless you are getting a cut of his salary, wishing for such things is utterly confusing...

let me ask this fish.. what is the worst thing that can happen to the knicks if they just let him walk? the worst thing? after you come up with that answer.. look at our current record and team with carmelo and the fact that we have no pick this year as well, and tell me, honestly tell me, will it be any worse than that?

we have seen the worst, and I have discussed this ad nauseum with folks who are open for discussion. You go back to 25 win seasons where you wonder if the stats your rotation players are real or not. Remember David Lee's 20/12/55% season? (29 wins). Remember Jamal Crawford scoring 20ppg and shooting 45% from 3? (32 wins). Remember Eddy's 20ppg on 57% shooting? (33 wins)

Whats funny TFK is you cant even see whats happening. Without Melo this is a 20 win team. Once you get to that point its ground zero. How's Cle doing? Whats their record? They have the kind of high caliber talent you covet but cant win. Why? How's Denver doing? All that cap space and influx of young talent should be getting them much father than when they were dragging that anchor Melo around right? Go tell me their average win total with and without Melo.

You have special needs and clear issues with reality, so I dont expect this discussion to make a difference, but we have gone through exactly the scenario you so dream of. It sucked. Go tell yourself otherwise. Then have dk come over to hold you.

And yes... you have chosen a good time to say "I dont see the wins." A time when the offseason moves yielded nothing and the guy who built up the roster to 54 wins was fired, but thats MElo's fault as well I am sure. Hee haw

David Lee isn't really a great example - because he is putting up great numbers and a winning team.

You dump Melo and draft well - and yes, we have 3-5 years of 20-30 win teams - but hopefully you build a foundation that can be the next Miami/Indiana/San Antonio/Dallas/LA Lakers/Clippers in five years.

Or we keep Melo and are locked in to mediocrity for the next five years and then we suck after that.

Mediocrity if we're lucky.

What happens when Melo wears out? Then we have Amar'e 2.0 Allan Houston 2.0.

No! David lee is the perfect example. Because he was good. But nobody could tell because a lot of crap players put up numbers on losing teams. I mean most thought he was leading scorer and rebounder because SOMEONE had too. So we let him walk so we could upgrade to Amare, a proven winner. David Lee is the perfect example of what happens when you let Melo walk. Knicks drafted a guy with lottery talent but nobody could tell because how do judge through all that losing?