Knicks · Melo Is Gone (page 3)
misterearl wrote:Carmelo will be 30 years old on May 29Sign him to a 5 year max deal and you are inviting Amare Part 2. Melo already shows subtle signs of wearing down at the end of games. What happens in two years?
Fact is, Steve Mills reports to Houston who reports to Dolan who approves or rejects any deals. Melo knows the front office is dysfunctional. How much faith does he have in the suits to assemble a championship set of running buddies in one off season?
Two off seasons? Championship?
By then he is 32 and even more worn down, who is he running with?
Melo knows it is not happening in New York and his attempts at diplomacy cannot mask that it is all about him.
He gotta go so we can move on. Portland survived losing their number one selection. Three years later they are fun to watch. As the end of the day, is t it about having fun watching good hoops?
The next 3-5 years can be spent with yoots we can rally behind, or the same ole same ole.
Get Chicago on the phone.
Sounds all good, but history tells us that this organization is not going to bottom out and rebuild. And I wuld delete Chicago from my contacts list...Not thanks to scrubs like Jimmy Butler for Melo....
Uptown wrote:
We can have a team full of yoot, but it doesn't mean they are going to develop into anything special. Even if they do, does anyone have confidence that this organization will keep them? Talent like Melo is hard to come by, I think we do what we can to build around him (or with him, semantics). The Sacramento Kings are loaded with Yoot....How is that working out for them?
Uptown - the Knicks have built with vets and added yoots.
What is proposed by the Answer Man starts with yoots and finishes with free agent vets. ETA 2017
Hear me now and believe me in three years
A Simple Plan
Build the Knicks around Tim Hardaway Jr, Jeremy Tyler, Kurt Heinrich and the two first round picks from Chicago. That's 5.
Set a goal to add two quality players a year.
In 2015, draft wisely and select the best player available. Discover a 6'11 Euro from Lithuania or Nigeria to invest in. That's 7.
In 2016, with all the extra cash laying around, sign two legit free agents (under 28 years old) to fill in where needed. That's 9.
Piece of cake
Uptown wrote:Wow...Now everyone is back on the yoot movement?! You mean the same yoot like David Lee that Knick fans bashed and called Jazz Hands and ripped on because he didn't play any D? Yoot like Nate Robinson who fans couldn't wait to run out of town? Maybe yoot like Channing Frye who people on here were comparing to Tim Duncan during his first year, then couldn't wait to shit him out of town by his second year because he wasn't developing fast enough. Or how about Shump. During his first year, Knick fans loved his defense and hustle, now we turned on him and want to move him because he (he is still a yoot, right? It's only his 3rd year) is taking away valuable minutes from another yoot,Tim Hardaway jr (who most Knick fans were upset when we drafted him) who just put on a show at an organized Rucker game.We can have a team full of yoot, but it doesn't mean they are going to develop into anything special. Even if they do, does anyone have confidence that this organization will keep them? Talent like Melo is hard to come by, I think we do what we can to build around him (or with him, semantics). The Sacramento Kings are loaded with Yoot....How is that working out for them?
why did you leave off the players we kicked to the curb in the carmelo trade?
misterearl wrote:Reverse spin MoveUptown wrote:
We can have a team full of yoot, but it doesn't mean they are going to develop into anything special. Even if they do, does anyone have confidence that this organization will keep them? Talent like Melo is hard to come by, I think we do what we can to build around him (or with him, semantics). The Sacramento Kings are loaded with Yoot....How is that working out for them?Uptown - the Knicks have built with vets and added yoots.
What is proposed by the Answer Man starts with yoots and finishes with free agent vets. ETA 2017
Hear me now and believe me in three years
A Simple Plan
Build the Knicks around Tim Hardaway Jr, Jeremy Tyler, Kurt Heinrich and the two first round picks from Chicago. That's 5.
Set a goal to add two quality players a year.
In 2015, draft wisely and select the best player available. Discover a 6'11 Euro from Lithuania or Nigeria to invest in. That's 7.
In 2016, with all the extra cash laying around, sign two legit free agents (under 28 years old) to fill in where needed. That's 9.
Piece of cake
The impetus for the change by owner James Dolan is realizing the club is in store for a major shake-up by the summer of 2015, when the franchise could have a ton of salary-cap space. Dolan prefers a heavier hitter, such as the more charismatic Mills, who had been the top candidate to run the NBA Players Association, to oversee the process. That overhaul may start next summer, when Carmelo Anthony is likely to opt out of his deal to become a free agent, and Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler enter the final year of their contracts.
Mills is well-regarded around the NBA as having strong ties with players, agents and coaches as a former bigwig in the league office. But when Mills was helping run the Knicks with GM Scott Layden, a source told The Post he was behind the ill-fated Antonio McDyess draft-night trade in 2002.
Mills and Houston figure to be the point men in recruiting marquee free agents. The 2015 free-agent class includes Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rajon Rondo, David West, Brook Lopez and LeBron James (if he doesn’t opt out of his contract after the 2013-14 season).
The Knicks feel Mills has more cachet and influence on several levels, and he will be much more visible than Grunwald.
Mills has never run a draft or day-to-day basketball operations
http://nypost.com/2013/09/26/knicks-shoc...
Mills wasn't brought in to run the draft and rebuild. He was brought in because the owner saw him as more charismatic and distinguished. Nice.
Our beloved franchise will either change its business model, or become the former LA Clippers under Elgin Baylor.
Meanwhile, franchises in OKC, Boston, Utah, Portland, Phoenix, Washington DC, Chicago, and yes...even Los Angeles... move boldly into the next three years.
Melo will be approaching 34.
You do the math.
CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:Walsh's tenure was not good. He hired the wrong coach and spent his time in NY trying to fix that. He drafted guys that fit his coaches system or didn't need a mentor which D'Antoni wasn't. He also let everyone know his 'plan' and was taken advantage of in every trade he made. Is a simplistic plan that allows other teams to improve because they know your plan and doesn't work out really a good plan? Come on now. You just want to spin it back to Melo.CrushAlot wrote:misterearl wrote:Holfresh - exactlyI don't think you trade Melo. There aren't many close to his level in the nba. I think you have a plan to make the team better around him. The problem is can the management/ownership group get this done. I think they have a better chance of making it work then doing it by dumping Melo and trying to draft the right guys. Not sure how Mills drafts but Walsh was horrible at it when he was in NY. The best center draft in decades landed the Knicks a guy that played the same position as Wilson Chandler and allegedly had already had back problems. The best point guard draft in recent memory landed the Knicks Jordan Hill who subsequently was traded with the Knicks top 3 protected pick to dump salary. And the second round where he could have taken a chance on first round talent that needed to develop, he went with the oldest guy in the draft that wasn't supposed to be picked and could have been a camp invite if the Knicks were so hot on having a short, slow 24 year old three point shooter as their 15th man.Until a plan is set, fans in The Garden need to institute a "Doh-Laaan" chant.
Have a plan to acquire four quality starters plus one sixth man to put around number 7.
Trade Carmelo or lose him for nothing.
You do the math.
good job at muddying the waters as usual. dolan and isaiah made the knicks a laughingstock and walsh was brought in to right the ship at stern's "request." the knicks were once a proud flagship franchise and dolan has made it a farce.
at least with walsh you had some sort of plan to flush away the crap that isaiah and dolan created. was the process perfect? hell no. but there was at least a plan, an outline. this plan was summarily spooged by dolan and melo and voila! we have this shit show.
i think you trade melo.
i prefer plans to rash and imprudent and impetuous moves. the melo trade was a move from frying pan into the fire.
look at the steaming pile the team has become in his third year here. i would rather the trade never happened and watch the plan in place executed, however flawed. since we don't know how things would have panned out in that scenario it is preferable to how things have actually panned out and it doesn't help i predicted this was going to happen, ie profound underachievement. you wanna hang your hat on 54-wins? go ahead. i saw a second round annihilation.
yellowboy90 wrote:So, why are we not hearing how Amar'e should opt out to save the knicks money. I know why but it would be interesting if he did this. If I was the Gm I would be talking to STAT about opting out to sign a low contract for a long time. Maybe even have an under the table deal to extend the contract early to stretch his money. It could be possible to get a lower amount insured.I agree the Stat contract has been a disaster. Not using the amnesty clause on him really hurt. However i still feel giving melo a long term max contract in his 30's wont end well
He wants results and a plan by next season so in translation that means NO because it wouldn't allow us to make any transactions with or without a pay cut for 2014
Melo also said FIRST that he wants to join a CONTENDER which we will not be, at earliest it would be 2015 which he has already said he is not willing to wait for
So everything he has said so far = GIBBERISH, be prepared to lose him for nothing
In the other post I have posted a possible scenario...
Trade AB for Perkin's, expiring's in Sefelosha, Thabeet, and some assets like one of their young guys and a 1st rounder, possibly unloading Pablo/MWP
Trade Tyson Chandler, with Felton, for expirings, cap relief, Felton and/or whoever else is on the books, to Sun's, including Iman Shumpert
Do do some of the above, we might even have to use some of the assets attained and future picks.......
Using the stretch provision on STAT and whoever else like Pablo, etc, like 10 years on STAT contract, making it -2.5 per year of the entire cap
We would go way under the cap and be able to sign some players, though they would likely ALL have to take less in order to come to NYK
Trade JR or not? At 5-6m he could outproduce his contract and right now he will not net back much till he shows his old physical abilities and hunger he had last season....
I cannot think of any other way of why Melo would stay if we cannot make major changes to our lineups
In addition, we would have many roster spots open, and would have to find many vet min steals much like Laker's have done this season, with PT available though I would prefer to change the coach because NO ONE wants to play in Woodson's ISO system but Melo and JR
Also, if he does opt out *which he has stated multiple times that he will in fact do*, resign with a player option in 2015 so he can opt out and recruit with all the 2015 UFA's available to retool, grabbing 1-3 STAR's to play with him
misterearl wrote:Moonangie wrote:
Well said. And I agree - check the next wave of yoots...always. If you have an assemblage that a star thinks puts him over the top...he's more likely to sign for less, and get to the promised land.We're not in that place yet. Yoots = talent on the cheap. Get er done muffah.
Moonangie - the best part about going with yoots is that it brings balance, both on the court and at the bank. No more top heavy contracts with others making peanuts. Spread the wealth and share the rock.
Melo as the centerpiece only stunts the growth of any players who are still finding their groove. A veteran will need to learn how to play with him. A draft pick or Summer League discovery will defer out of fear.
No question about Melo's supreme talent as a scorer. By contrast, better basketball requires rebounding, assists, deflections, blocked shots and defense. If Melo stays, the ball remains magnetized to him. There is less sharing and his ego remains dominant. Is that the brand of Knicks basketball you want to watch for the next five years? Really?
Hear me now and believe me later... Scottie Pippen is not walking through that door.
To be clear... going with yoots is unpredictable, risky, crazy... and fun.
It also means less drama. Less ego. Less isolation. Let's get back to vintage New York Knicks team basketball. Move without the ball. Hit the open man. All for one and one for all. Repeat. One for all and all for one.
Are we not men?
you are a major flip-flopper but at least you are seeing the light in the 11th hour.
misterearl wrote:Crush - no one said that change would be easyMills was brought in to enhance the current business model. Dolan did say he wants to develop young players. Hardaway and Tyler are nice. Maybe Murry, Cole or another youngster is added to that mix next year and again after the 2015 draft but the knick plan when Mills was hired was to have a charismatic gm that could entice free agents to come to ny and sign for big money. Grunwald started it with the Bargs trade. He also is accountable for every young player brought in this year other than Chris Smith. You are right it won't be easy to do a traditional rebuild and it most likely isn't happening until sometime after 2015 if the 2015 plan doesn't work out.Our beloved franchise will either change its business model, or become the former LA Clippers under Elgin Baylor.
Meanwhile, franchises in OKC, Boston, Utah, Portland, Phoenix, Washington DC, Chicago, and yes...even Los Angeles... move boldly into the next three years.
Melo will be approaching 34.
You do the math.
CrushAlot wrote:Also, did you see in Berman's article that his 'source' said Mills was responsible for the McDyess draft night trade?misterearl wrote:Crush - no one said that change would be easyMills was brought in to enhance the current business model. Dolan did say he wants to develop young players. Hardaway and Tyler are nice. Maybe Murry, Cole or another youngster is added to that mix next year and again after the 2015 draft but the knick plan when Mills was hired was to have a charismatic gm that could entice free agents to come to ny and sign for big money. Grunwald started it with the Bargs trade. He also is accountable for every young player brought in this year other than Chris Smith. You are right it won't be easy to do a traditional rebuild and it most likely isn't happening until sometime after 2015 if the 2015 plan doesn't work out.Our beloved franchise will either change its business model, or become the former LA Clippers under Elgin Baylor.
Meanwhile, franchises in OKC, Boston, Utah, Portland, Phoenix, Washington DC, Chicago, and yes...even Los Angeles... move boldly into the next three years.
Melo will be approaching 34.
You do the math.
dk7th wrote:Uptown wrote:Wow...Now everyone is back on the yoot movement?! You mean the same yoot like David Lee that Knick fans bashed and called Jazz Hands and ripped on because he didn't play any D? Yoot like Nate Robinson who fans couldn't wait to run out of town? Maybe yoot like Channing Frye who people on here were comparing to Tim Duncan during his first year, then couldn't wait to shit him out of town by his second year because he wasn't developing fast enough. Or how about Shump. During his first year, Knick fans loved his defense and hustle, now we turned on him and want to move him because he (he is still a yoot, right? It's only his 3rd year) is taking away valuable minutes from another yoot,Tim Hardaway jr (who most Knick fans were upset when we drafted him) who just put on a show at an organized Rucker game.We can have a team full of yoot, but it doesn't mean they are going to develop into anything special. Even if they do, does anyone have confidence that this organization will keep them? Talent like Melo is hard to come by, I think we do what we can to build around him (or with him, semantics). The Sacramento Kings are loaded with Yoot....How is that working out for them?
why did you leave off the players we kicked to the curb in the carmelo trade?
You mean like Raymond Felton ...who Knicks fans referred to as a tyrannaurus Rex because they felt he had really short arms....and besides, now that he has been back with the team, they hate him all over again. Or Gallo, who when we drafted him, Knicks fans complained as a draft pick reach because MDA was friends with s father. Or who was dubbed as a wasted pick after it was found he required back fusion surgery. Or Wilson "The Mayor" Chandler, who many despised as a waste of bench space because he was maddeningly inconsistent (and remains so till this day) or perhaps Mozgov, who many claimed was a reach and overpaid project.
dk7th wrote:
you are a major flip-flopper but at least you are seeing the light in the 11th hour.
Dk7th - better to be "flip flopped" (intellectually curious and open to new thinking) than a one trick pony.
Ask yourself, When was the last time you posted a new train of thought?
Bashing Melo is so last week.
This is strictly business.
yellowboy90 wrote:So, why are we not hearing how Amar'e should opt out to save the knicks money. I know why but it would be interesting if he did this. If I was the Gm I would be talking to STAT about opting out to sign a low contract for a long time. Maybe even have an under the table deal to extend the contract early to stretch his money. It could be possible to get a lower amount insured.
Amare doesn't have an optout clause.
yellowboy90 wrote:So, why are we not hearing how Amar'e should opt out to save the knicks money.
I bet it has something to do with Amare not having a player option on his contract!
misterearl wrote:dk7th wrote:
you are a major flip-flopper but at least you are seeing the light in the 11th hour.Dk7th - better to be "flip flopped" (intellectually curious and open to new thinking) than a one trick pony.
Ask yourself, When was the last time you posted a new train of thought?
Bashing Melo is so last week.
This is strictly business.
i give him praise when he plays well and i give him criticism when he doesn't. i have been a model of balance and consistency with my approach to him from day 1. so there is no need to make an inaccurate blanket statement about my take on him.
he remains a mostly fool's gold player. it ain't my fault that he plays in a fashion that deserves mostly criticism and not that much praise. that's his fault. all he had to do was grow as a player while here... the same sort of growth that the players he is lumped in with so enthusiastically have demonstrated: lebron, durant, paul george.
at least you have realized what a horrible mistake trading for him was.
Enough. Like the immortal Red Redding line in shawshank Redemption:
Get busy living or get busy dying.
misterearl wrote:Dk7th - trading for Melo was not a mistake. The mistake is rehashing something that happened three years ago.Enough. Like the immortal Red Redding line in shawshank Redemption:
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Spoken like someone who never learns from the past