Knicks · Melo to Bulls 'Pretty Much Done' - rgm board sauces (page 5)
We sure as hell won't be drafting one while this is melo's team as the big kahuna
gunsnewing wrote:Jordan couldn't advance either in the playoffs when he did get there. Are we going to hold that against him too? arguably the greatest of all time. Why are people being so hard on KG? Another all time great. Multi-faceted game changer. Like I said even the best players need help. In Melos case he needs a lot of help or a Batman to his Robin. It ain't that complicatedI agree. So why are folks so desperate to get rid of him rather then get help? I mean look around... the elite teams all have 2+ stars
We have one. Need another. Amare isnt it. Chandler isnt it. Lets get another. I agree... it aint that complicated. The time to rebuild is after Melo's next contract, not after this one. As bad as this team played Im quite sure he can sustain a high level of play for the next 3-4 years. Bottom line is his legs are still springy after all the mileage. He needs a stud guard. Is it Rondo next year? I dont know... but I agree! Its not that complicated..
And in my opinion building through the draft is a necessity. Name a team in any sport that won it all with only FA signings? Can't think of one. Yankees, giants, lakers, spurs, heat etc
Dolan has gone the exact opposite route with starphuching everything. It hasn't worked for his 16yrs as owner. Time to do it the right way. I'm am praying and hopeful that Phil does just that
Chances of developing our own stars are slim with Melo as the big kahuna
gunsnewing wrote:The complicated part is building a core that fits.And in my opinion building through the draft is a necessity. Name a team in any sport that won it all with only FA signings? Can't think of one. Yankees, giants, lakers, spurs, heat etc
Dolan has gone the exact opposite route with starphuching everything. It hasn't worked for his 16yrs as owner. Time to do it the right way. I'm am praying and hopeful that Phil does just that
Chances of developing our own stars are slim with Melo as the big kahuna
That's what next season should be about, assembing complimentary pieces, players Jackson believe have the skills and the right attitude to get the job done. Cant wait till 2015 to do it all at once.
gunsnewing wrote:I would expect Melo's game to continue to improve in the ways that vet's games do. I mean look at all the mileage on Pierce and he was older also.fishmike wrote:gunsnewing wrote:A lot of factors:when KG joined that team was he the big Kahuna? Pretty sure led the team with 9ish boards and thats about it. Yup.. he was 3rd in minutes, 2nd in scoring. Thats the big Kahuna? Seems to me he came in and played exactly the Robin role your talking about. Let other guys do their thing. Was that even KG's team? Seems like Pierce was the finisher there anyway.
Melo better supporting cast
Karl better coach than Saunders etcWe saw what KG(all time great, offense, defense and leadership, kills you in multiple ways) did when he finally had spree cassel and Wally. Unfortunately they weren't good enough a supporting cast to compete with Duncan Shaq and Kobe
Take KG's supporting cast up a level(pierce Allen rondo) and he wins a ring. It's not that hard
Do you see Melo winning a ring as the Big Kahuna is the question?
Or as a robin to a batman?
I go with the latter.
Melo @ $25-30mil pretty much guarantees that it continues to be all about Melo
Which again is good enough if the goal is to make the playoffs
This really isn't that hard goddammit!!!
So what have we learned?
Same point in their careers: KG, a coveted player around these parts was a bigger loser than Melo at same point in their careers. KG comes to Boston, plays 2nd fiddle to other players and wins one title, instantly becomes the player that MElo never could after the age of 30. OK... got it.
His game was declining into his 30s. Much like Melo soon will. Both guys came into the league in their teens and have logged a ton of minutes by the age of 30
Difference is KG is still effective going to 2 finals and toe to toe with Miami in recent years because he effects the game in a number of different ways. Passing scoring defense and leadership. What's melo's defense going to look like in 2-4yrs?
Look... I dont hold Melo on a pedestal, but he's a top 10 player. Holes in his game? Hell yes... but Ive seen enough to believe he's got every bit the champion in him that a guy like Pierce or even Dirk (remember they called in Irk???). The pieces he needs around him are easier to get then Melo himself.
Guys need help! Chris Paul is sick... he's easily a top 10 player, prob top 5 and he's got Blake and Jordan up front and cant make it out of the 2nd round, and I think he's only been there once. It takes alot!
I would hope the plan with Phil would be to resign Melo and built not a team around him, but a team. Thats why Phil is here. In 4 years when Melo is 34 (or 34.5 for DK) if we are an old team of aging vets like Boston was last offseason I am ALL FOR blowing it up. Not when you have a guy playing at Melo's level right now. Need to try to build this thing up and especially need to start improving from within. Fix PG, and let the rest of the guys back. They all expire. Lets see where we stand. We have what? One first rounder in the next 3 years? Now isnt the time to rebuild. It just doesnt make sense.
Bad example even Atlanta drafts talent but no winning culture established. I strive to be like Miami, spurs, Indy and okc. Dolan has done the exact opposite as those teamS
gunsnewing wrote:The complicated part is building a core that fits.I agree with all of this. But we dont have picks. So whats plan B?And in my opinion building through the draft is a necessity. Name a team in any sport that won it all with only FA signings? Can't think of one. Yankees, giants, lakers, spurs, heat etc
Dolan has gone the exact opposite route with starphuching everything. It hasn't worked for his 16yrs as owner. Time to do it the right way. I'm am praying and hopeful that Phil does just that
Chances of developing our own stars are slim with Melo as the big kahuna
Your 1000% right, and thats why Phil is here: For Melo. Thats Phil's big trait in the NBA, not so much the Xs and Os of coaching, but getting guys to believe in a system and to play together. MJ didnt win until Phil taught him to trust his teammates. Phil biggest accomplishment was getting Kobe and Shaq to understand they needed each other to win. Those guys HATED (and still) hate each other yet won titles together.
How will he do those things here? Like you said... winning culture. Expecations spelled out but backed by 11 rings which says "I know more than you." Players HAVE TO listen and fit into the system, and the GM, Pres, coach and waterboys will finally ALL be on the same page for the first time since Riley was coaching.
If you look at the time since Melo's been here the roster has been better... he's a legit star. He had Amare playing well at times, some good vets, 3 years of getting into the playoffs, but the front office has been just as dysfunctional as during the Isiah/Layden days. Thats changing now. Lets see how it plays out
gunsnewing wrote:I'm ok with keeping Melo if we somehow surround him with championship level talent. Not just enough talent to make the playoffs like Melos nuggets and KG's wolves. Unless Lebron or Durant come here where are we finding these guys? Kevin Love is putting us over the top? I rather trade Melo for picks and draft the next true Kahuna. In the meantime be subjected to good basketball and a winning culture. Much better than becoming the Atlanta Hawks.Do you have any doubt thats why Dolan is paying Phil a fortune? I think Amare was partially right when he said Knicks are paper champs. The talent was there but the pieces were terrible. Amare and Melo.. two star forwards whom everyone knows exactly what they need to beast: good PGs. So we throw out Tony Douglas, Felton, Bibby, Baron Davis, Prigioni... its laughable. They only guy who fit was Lin!Bad example even Atlanta drafts talent but no winning culture established. I strive to be like Miami, spurs, Indy and okc. Dolan has done the exact opposite as those teamS
There is a lot of dysfunction to fix and improvement from within, and much of it can come from fixing one position: PG. I think we see Lowry here.
He has at least 5yrs. I hope he blows it up and if by year 4 or 5 we are contending or getting close. It would feel a lot more rewarding than sucking next year only to add Kevin Love and never getting out of the 2nd round the entire 5yrs as the usual suspects gobble up all the rings
He is getting older. Will probably need shoulder surgery and god forbid his knees go aka H20 & mcdyess from over usuage. Had he been entering his prime years 25-28 than you build around him. At 30+ injuries will be an issue and his motor will slow down. Especially considering his defensive motor and footwork was never there to begin with. He plays defense with his hands not feet
gunsnewing wrote:I don't think they can build a sustainable contender until we gut the team and build it back up the right way with Phil and his coach instilling his principles of team basketball. I'm just worried that Phil has no interest in starting over. He is running out of time and might choose the short cut route which would make him no different than Isiah, Larry brown and company.we have no pick this year and no pick in 2016 either right? Whats your hope? That we trade Melo to the sixers for a top 5 pick? Pass on the Kevin Love sweepstakes and use the Bargs/Tyson/Amare expirings to take on longer deals for guys like Jennings or Josh Smith so long as we get picks back?He has at least 5yrs. I hope he blows it up and if by year 4 or 5 we are contending or getting close. It would feel a lot more rewarding than sucking next year only to add Kevin Love and never getting out of the 2nd round the entire 5yrs as the usual suspects gobble up all the rings
Was what Boston did sustainable? They rolled the dice on old guys and won big. Building a veteran team doesnt have to = Isiah. Thats your battered Knick fan syndrome talking dude....
Or somehow get Lebron or Durant
gunsnewing wrote:I want draft picks and sign guys who are in their prime like Jordan Kobe Shaq & Duncan. Drafted or signed in their prime yearsGuns.. so does every other team in the NBA. Every team wants the best 5 players, or two of them. Thats great but whats the backup plan? I mean we cleared cap space for Lebron and we got Amare. I love that idea. Everyone here does. The arguements seems to be about plan B. You can have a 3 year plan that revolves around hope that one (or two) of five guys sign here.Or somehow get Lebron or Durant
gunsnewing wrote:You think Phil will bring in Lowry and abandon the triangle? And go with whatever system the coach wants to run? I think he will hire Kerr and have him teach the triangle that way GM & coach is on the same page for the first time in yearsLowry cant run the triangle? Im just thinking an upgrade at PG. We need a real floor general.
fishmike wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Jordan couldn't advance either in the playoffs when he did get there. Are we going to hold that against him too? arguably the greatest of all time. Why are people being so hard on KG? Another all time great. Multi-faceted game changer. Like I said even the best players need help. In Melos case he needs a lot of help or a Batman to his Robin. It ain't that complicatedI agree. So why are folks so desperate to get rid of him rather then get help? I mean look around... the elite teams all have 2+ starsWe have one. Need another. Amare isnt it. Chandler isnt it. Lets get another. I agree... it aint that complicated. The time to rebuild is after Melo's next contract, not after this one. As bad as this team played Im quite sure he can sustain a high level of play for the next 3-4 years. Bottom line is his legs are still springy after all the mileage. He needs a stud guard. Is it Rondo next year? I dont know... but I agree! Its not that complicated..
the elite teams have good all around talent, and their best player is usually a good leader and solid all around player.. carmelo is neither... I mean do you really think it makes sense comparing carmelo's situation to Jordan, or Garnett, or Dirk... you first have to start with this fish... all of those guys are miles ahead of carmelo.. they are so much better.. building teams around players who can lead and who are complete is a lot different than building around such a flawed player...
Your problem is that you overvalue carmelo.. why? who knows... having one flat tire and adding 3 good ones around it won't make the car ride any better...
EnySpree wrote:I think we win regardless. The Knicks situation isnon hold for a season.Melo should leave to the Bulls. He would put them in the Finals possibly with a great group around him and best coach not named Popovich. It's the best opportunity for him.
The Knicks need to slow cook the pot. They need a new coach to set the ground work for the future. We should be looking to build around or youth next season and add a draft pick to the mix for 2015 off season.
Melo could come for the ride or not. The Knicks are still in limbo next year.
Papabear Says
I've been hearing the same old crap for over 40 years. If we get this player we win it all if we get that player we win it all. What did Melo think would happen once we gave up picks and everything else in order to get him. Sure Melo has a right to walk at the end of the season and if he dose without giving serious consideration to the Knicks then we got screwed. I can"t blame Melo there is a lot of blame to go around.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:Melo is not the real problem despite his desire to go ISO, which wouldn't be the end of the world if we had a team around him and an offense that involves some off ball motion. This is the change the Knicks need most. In the NBA the difference between teams is not that great. Aside from needing a Top Tier player you also need a roster that makes sense and has the needed balance and scheme to enhance the overall team play. You could take the same roster and put in a better scheme and this team would win a lot more games. Now if you also improve the team with the right player or two then we'd be talking about a contender.We will get a chance to see this roster with better coaching, scheme and perhaps a glue type player or 2 that can make it all work at a higher level. Better understanding of how to play the game on a higher level is going to be key and that is what Phil is going to be looking to do. Better fundamentals and overall scheme will make a HUGE difference. Just watching this team there were so many times where this team lost simply due to a lack of fundamentals and a sound BB scheme. Poor coaching and on the floor decision making was often the real detriment as opposed to needing more talent. Of course we want to improve the talent but you also have to improve the base level of BB acumen and IQ. We've been playing dumb BB and selfish BB that doesn't maximize the talent we have already.
his arrival here in the first place made the roster make no sense. they gutted the team and could not figure it out. the team has been in chaos and disarray thanks to the melo trade. "surrounding" such a flawed-- and redundant player-- was a non-starter. we should have stood pat in 2010-2011 and gotten an upgrade at point guard. tha was surely walsh's plan, since he had felton on a cheap two-year audition deal. we would have been in much better shape than we are now, waiting for some cooky draft night trades and then 2015 free agency.
It's really hard to put a team together that can win a title without one of the top players in the league and a scheme that maximizes the role players on your team. We already have Melo who I believe is talented enough to help a team win in the post season, but the big IF is having the right coach and leadership, the right balance of players that make sense together. We need a cultural shift to TEAM WORK as opposed to what we've had. IMO getting rid of Melo doesn't really solve any of the teams pressing issues. If only creates a major one. Who exactly do you replace him with that has the talent to take over when a team of role players needs that star player? It's not like they grow those players on trees.
I'd take my chances with Melo and Phil rather than just hoping we can eventually find a lead player and put a team around him. IMO if we had replaced Felton with a more capable player that would do more than getting rid of Melo. Just think about how Kidd was able to help this team despite losing most of his physical skills. He did it with his mind more than anything else. We need a younger Ball mover who can lead the team on the floor. We need the kind of scheme that Phil is espousing that is based on Team Ball.
Papabear Says
Good Post. Makes a lot of since.
tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:wasnt Karl also the coach of that Sonics team that almost won 70 games and got bounced in the first round by the 8th seeded Mutumbo's Nuggets? Thats the coach your talking about right? that Sea team had what? 3 HOFs and other all-stars and your pumping up his playoff record?But i will break it down more for you fish...What I see you broke down for me is that a lottery franchise added a perennial all star and hall of fame player and went from the lottery to winning 50ish games every year. Pretty clear thats what happened.lets check the facts bro
Karls's Sonics: 63wins first round exit. 57 wins first rount exit and the two years after their one good run to the finals they got spanked in the 2nd round. But yea... Detlef, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins, Kemp, Nate McMillon, Gill... that team was deep and loaded but keep telling yourself Karl did a great job. Wow.. in 6 years he took a team with a HOF PG and a bunch of all stars on one good run.How about you explain to me how Kevin Garnett was a playoff loser (when he actually made it in) for a decade? Did he finally find good coaching or did he actually join a better team? Please tell.. I dont seem to understand how this team thing works. Your facts seem to help. Bro.
I DON'T KNOW what you are trying to argue.. do you? at some point fish every great coach will probably experience a first round loss, as will every great player.. so far lebron has not....to name one.... I think even phil had a first round exit...
what we are talking about fish is what they have done.. karl has been to a few confrence finals and a NBA finals... he has done so without carmelo.. carmelo hasn't done so without karl. his only visit to a confrence final was with karl...
Yes that sonics team was good, and had a REAL franchise player in gary payton.. that is the point... carmelo just isn't that dude!!!!
As far as garnett... all I know is that he has a ring and been to two finals.. when carmelo leaves the knicks and goes to another team and has that type of success than talk to me.. There is nothing to explain about garnett.. he is a champion..
If you are going to bring up other players to help your argument.. let them at least ... help your argument... bringing up champions isn't going to help... Garnett is a franchise changer.. he did so with boston. carmelo came here and failed... can you explain that?
Papabear Says
We must remember phill Jackson won each championship with the very best player in the league. Now if you have Melo and another superstar then thats a start.