Knicks · Darren Collison 1, Patty Mills 1a (page 1)

As far as using our MLE goes, these are the two FA PGs I'm most interested in. True they're 2nd tier PGs (probably the two best 2nd tier points out there though imo) but that bodes well as far as we go -- we just don't have the money to spend on any of the upper tier talent that may be out there in free agency. IMHO, Kyle Lowry's also a 2nd tier guy only this guy's rated higher than Collison & Mills. Thing is, I don't believe there's really much of a difference in these 3 guys at all. Talent-wise, I don't see any big separation between Kyle Lowry and Collison/Mills. Ability-wise, size, speed, age, etc., it's about a wash -- they're all in the same ballpark...Only main difference are the roles each of these guys play for there respective teams. Lowry started, played inflated starter mins (over 36 mins per this season), took almost 14 shots a game and his stats soared as a result, esp. PPG and assists. These other guys couldn't compete -- it wasn't a level playing field. Their roles are completely different -- they didn't play as much and didn't have the same amount of freedom:

Lowry: 36.2 mins, 13.7 shots per, 6.3 3-pt shots/game, 4.9 FT attempts per, 7.4 apg, 17.9 ppg

Collison: 25.9 mins, 8.7 shots per, 2.4 3-pt shots/game, 2.8 FT attempts per, 3.7 apg, 11.4 ppg

Mills: 18.9 mins, 8.2 shots per, 3.9 3-pt shots/game, 1 FT attempt per, 1.8 apg, 10.2 ppg

-------------------------

Point here is that Lowry's in a much better individual situation (one that benefits him greatly as far as his next contract goes) than either of these guys: he's been on a bad team playing extended mins where he's expected to score the ball, be 'the man' and assume most of the responsibility. These other guys play more of a supporting role for their teams, much better teams than the Toronto Raptors btw with much better players. You put Collison or Mills on that Toronto club and give them the same amount of mins and freedom, they'd duplicate Lowry's numbers pretty easily. Again, this bodes well for us -- the price will be too high for Lowry; meanwhile we real might be able to get one of the other two. i think we have a legit shot. I can't see the Clippers nor the Spurs offering these guys that much more of an expanded role over what they currently have, definitely not a starting gig, not while Paul and Parker are still around... Between Collison and Mills I might rank Collison a tad higher -- a little better defender, on par with Lowry. Then again, Mills might very well be the best offensive player of the three and if you really watch him, he's not a terrible defender and a pretty good ball-mover. Both guys had very efficient seasons statistically this year.

The most we can offer either player is the full limited tax-paying MLE. Lowry won't accept that, not off his stat-inflated year; but either of these guys very well might. Esp. if we offered up a Kyle Lowry-type assurance of a starting role and starter mins (this last caveat might be key in trying to lure either guy---I bet either guy would love an expanded role and the responsibility of finally running their own club -- Collison did for a little bit in the past, filling in for Paul in N.O., then in Indy for a stretch and excelled both times. Mills has never really had that opportunity, though I think he could handle it). I think we have a legit shot to sign either guy and that's all we can ask for, given our cap situation. We'll have to see what opportunities present themselves (can't rule out upgrading the PG spot via either the trade or draft fronts as well) but this is where I'd start looking for my PG upgrade -- free agency with either Collison or Mills. I think either guy would be a steal for our limited MLE -- PGs as good as Kyle Lowry for a fraction of the cost, not to mention a sizeable upgrade over what we currently have in place with Felton and Prigioni.

Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

mreinman wrote:Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

True but that's exactly what I'm assuming. Remember to keep in mind that Lowry's price tag will be too rich for our blood. Gotta look at what will realistically be available to us. Main point here: why spend 3-4X more for comparable talent?

I like both guys. I checked trade checker and it looks like collision has another year before he is a free agent.

I think Mills is the kind of player that Phil is looking for when you consider play, salary, and availability.

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

True but that's exactly what I'm assuming. Remember to keep in mind that Lowry's price tag will be too rich for our blood. Gotta look at what will realistically be available to us. Main point here: why spend 3-4X more for comparable talent?

Yeah - Lowry is not happening. Can't imagine how good we could have been if we got him instead of Bargs.

Teague is probably not an option either with the way he has played recently for Atlanta.

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

True but that's exactly what I'm assuming. Remember to keep in mind that Lowry's price tag will be too rich for our blood. Gotta look at what will realistically be available to us. Main point here: why spend 3-4X more for comparable talent?

I think Lowry is a fluke year player and I wouldn't pay him big money. That said, Collison was given freedom in Indiana and he was still a notch below Lowry. But I would have no issue bringing Collision on a short term deal. He is an obvious upgrade over Felton at this point. Mills? I'm not sold on.He's proven that he can score with the best of them, but his playmaking abilities are still questionable.

CrushAlot wrote:I like both guys. I checked trade checker and it looks like collision has another year before he is a free agent.

Saw that too. It's a player option though -- I could see him opting out if the Knicks came calling, offering him a raise (a full MLE offer) and a starting role. The Clips had this guy on the next plane to NY in a trade up until Shumpert hurt himself and the deal fell apart. The Clips main guard rotation at the moment appears to be Paul/Collison, Crawford and a sprinkle of JJ Redick. I think they consider Collison expendable -- looks like they'd rather have a bigger legit 2G in place of Collison. That appeared to be the motivation behind trying to acquire Shumpert at the deadline.

mreinman wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

True but that's exactly what I'm assuming. Remember to keep in mind that Lowry's price tag will be too rich for our blood. Gotta look at what will realistically be available to us. Main point here: why spend 3-4X more for comparable talent?

Yeah - Lowry is not happening. Can't imagine how good we could have been if we got him instead of Bargs.

Teague is probably not an option either with the way he has played recently for Atlanta.

Yeah, same boat as Lowry -- out of our league price-wise, but talent-wise not much of a separation from Collison or Mills imho.

Adding collision would be like Walsh adding Felton on the cheap for 2yrs minus Dantoni

gunsnewing wrote:Adding collision would be like Walsh adding Felton on the cheap for 2yrs minus Dantoni

Don't see how you can compare the two. Their efficiency numbers are worlds apart.

That's true but I see him as a career backup like Felton. He has holes in his game if you look at his time in Dallas when he was handed the starting job. I think Shumpert is a lot more valuable to Phil and what he wants to do. Phil should be able to plug in a pg who takes caree of the ball which collision does not do. I can see collision in a Bj Armstrong role but not starting pg. That isn't enough for Shumpert

Collison's low assists per 36 is unimpressive and I also look at him of more of a scorer than distributor type

However, not sure that phil is looking for a pure pg in his triangle

Darren works for me for that very reason and he has a nice motor but we'd have to get him without trading Shump. What you get from collision is replaceable. What Shump gives u is not

mreinman wrote:Collison's low assists per 36 is unimpressive and I also look at him of more of a scorer than distributor type

However, not sure that phil is looking for a pure pg in his triangle

Low assists are probably just because half the time he's on the court with Paul

gunsnewing wrote:Darren works for me for that very reason and he has a nice motor but we'd have to get him without trading Shump. What you get from collision is replaceable. What Shump gives u is not

Sarcasm?

I just really, really like Patty's game. I also think he's smart enough to thrive in the triangle

SupremeCommander wrote:I just really, really like Patty's game. I also think he's smart enough to thrive in the triangle

Me too. Very nice offensive player, passable defender (I'd say better than Felton by comparison) and a willing/underrated passer. Agree, he'd function real well in a triangle setup. Be a good guy in transition too. Brings a lot to the table for the money imo. Gotta see what SA winds up doing with him -- do they re-up him at bigger pay or do they cut him loose know they have Cory Joseph waiting in the wings and also a 1st round pick at 30 where they'll have a good opportunity to draft another PG there if they're so inclined. Interested to see what kind of PT Pop gives him in the playoffs now too. If he doesn't get enough time (say Joseph plays more than he does), that could make it that much easier for him to leave.

Both players are comparable. They both have great percentages. Both are still fairly young.

Patty intrigues me because of his international play. He's played against the USA squads with no fear and was highly successful.

Both should be on our radars. And both can become starting caliber pgs in this league. Collison had proved he could already. Though its weird Indiana and Dallas went out of their ways to sabotage his career. Something is going on that were not aware. Why someone with his athletic ability and shooting percentage would be benched so often.

Mills #s look quite good for someone possibly in our price range. How much is he expected to be offered?

BigDaddyG wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

mreinman wrote:Like all of them but Lowry is much more proven then the others.

You are assuming that given equal minutes they would play at the same level but thats a big if.

And the assists numbers for the other 2 are way off.

True but that's exactly what I'm assuming. Remember to keep in mind that Lowry's price tag will be too rich for our blood. Gotta look at what will realistically be available to us. Main point here: why spend 3-4X more for comparable talent?

I think Lowry is a fluke year player and I wouldn't pay him big money. That said, Collison was given freedom in Indiana and he was still a notch below Lowry. But I would have no issue bringing Collision on a short term deal. He is an obvious upgrade over Felton at this point. Mills? I'm not sold on.He's proven that he can score with the best of them, but his playmaking abilities are still questionable.

It looks like Mills is always on the floor with Manu. They must be splitting the playmaking responsibilities, which would lower Mills' assists.