Knicks · IS CALDERON ELITE STATUS (page 2)

Dagger wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

He is a good point guard but winning the Atlantic? 2 teams I fear and that is Charlotte and the Wizards. They are young fast and aggressive.

Neither of those teams is in the atlantic

Now this is very very very funny

calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

toodarkmark wrote:He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

yep, pippen, Jordan and Rodman and we are set..

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

tkf wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

yep, pippen, Jordan and Rodman and we are set..

LOL.

seriously, i see nobody out there like paul or nash. remember that not too long ago folks were lamenting the demise of the low-post, back to the basket big man? how many are out there nowadays? add in the ability to be a playmaker and shot creator for others and we find that these players are scarce. the more scarce they are the more a system becomes necessary. i wish it were otherwise because i love to watch players who possess basketball skills and IQ.

that said, tony parker has learned to become ambidextrous, and to keep his head up on the dribble, AND most importantly maintain his dribble. and then there's duncan, whose skills as a post player are so very rare....

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

just got look at Felton's shooting #s in losses vs. wins and get back to me. Dallas won 50 and took the Spurs to 7 games playing Monta and Calderon together, but lets gloss over that also.

Seriously, do you 3 wake up everyday and say "lets find something wrong with a player on the Knick roster and discuss every possible way it will negatively impact the season????"

I mean am I paraphrasing or is that exactly how the daily affirmations go... "Im Pat and people like me... oh and Calderon's defense sucks so the Knicks will surely miss Ray Felton and every team in the NBA got better."

Is Isiah Thomas here?

Calderon is VASTLY superior to Felton offensively and only marginally worse defensively. That's a win for the Knicks. Not to mention that in this system Felton would be exposed even more and Calderon's skills fit perfectly. In the triangle the PG isn't ball dominant. It's predicated on ball and player movement and not PG dominant action. So Calderon will give up the ball early and move to a shooting position. He keeps doing that in this offense and only when they get into 2 man action does the guard really have to function as a PG. Calderon has excellent decision making and PnR skills. He's got court vision and passing skills. I mean really it's a JOKE that anyone is trying to make this out to be anything less than a win for the Knicks at the PG spot.

Dime Mag had Calderon at #16 in the NBA to PG's list:

16. JOSE CALDERON
Surprised he’s on the list? You shouldn’t be. The league-leader in three-point percentage last year (46.1) also boasted the sixth-highest assists per game (8.6). Yes, he might have a hard time defending nearly anyone (really, he is an atrocious defender) and yes, he probably didn’t deserve a four-year contract worth a shade under $30 million at the ripe age of 32. But he is one of the league’s best game/floor managers, not to mention the holder of the highest career free throw percentage ever in a season (98.1). He might not be an explosive athlete, but Calderon is a smart vet who rarely makes mistakes.

He is an elite 3 point, free throw, and mid-range shooter. In all the other facets of the game he is not elite. And on D he is horrible. Whatever the opposite of elite is that is what Calderon is on D.

Im still a fan of his. He should get lots of good looks in the triangle offense.

H1AND1 wrote:He is an elite 3 point, free throw, and mid-range shooter. In all the other facets of the game he is not elite. And on D he is horrible. Whatever the opposite of elite is that is what Calderon is on D.

Im still a fan of his. He should get lots of good looks in the triangle offense.

agree... and add ball handling and passing. He's a high assist guy and always has one of the best TO/Assits ratios. Not a star but a good player with a needed skill set.

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

yep, pippen, Jordan and Rodman and we are set..

LOL.

seriously, i see nobody out there like paul or nash. remember that not too long ago folks were lamenting the demise of the low-post, back to the basket big man? how many are out there nowadays? add in the ability to be a playmaker and shot creator for others and we find that these players are scarce. the more scarce they are the more a system becomes necessary. i wish it were otherwise because i love to watch players who possess basketball skills and IQ.

that said, tony parker has learned to become ambidextrous, and to keep his head up on the dribble, AND most importantly maintain his dribble. and then there's duncan, whose skills as a post player are so very rare....

I actually don't mind a system, but as you said the more these special type players become scarce, the more system ball you will see.. and that is fine, but I rathter see the highly skilled, high IQ players play in a system...

Jordan, pippen and rodman didn't need the triangle to win... but it was so effective when you have highly skilled players running just about any system.. well rounded players that is..

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

yep, pippen, Jordan and Rodman and we are set..

LOL.

seriously, i see nobody out there like paul or nash. remember that not too long ago folks were lamenting the demise of the low-post, back to the basket big man? how many are out there nowadays? add in the ability to be a playmaker and shot creator for others and we find that these players are scarce. the more scarce they are the more a system becomes necessary. i wish it were otherwise because i love to watch players who possess basketball skills and IQ.

that said, tony parker has learned to become ambidextrous, and to keep his head up on the dribble, AND most importantly maintain his dribble. and then there's duncan, whose skills as a post player are so very rare....

I actually don't mind a system, but as you said the more these special type players become scarce, the more system ball you will see.. and that is fine, but I rathter see the highly skilled, high IQ players play in a system...

Jordan, pippen and rodman didn't need the triangle to win... but it was so effective when you have highly skilled players running just about any system.. well rounded players that is..

this season we have virtually no well-rounded players, which is worrisome. i mean, the knicks might actually make the playoffs, but if they get beaten bad in the first round it could scare off free agents come summer 2015.

i am not expecting a minor miracle, but 50 wins and a second round appearance would qualify as one.

I like his shooting percentages, but I've always been a bit suspicious of him because his teams haven't usually done well. However last year was a successful one for the Mavs, so I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I wish he was a better defender though- I can't take another season of opposing PGs lighting us up!

My favorite game highlights of Calderon

mreinman wrote:My favorite game highlights of Calderon

If you go to the 1:05 mark you can see three of the worst contracts in the nba come together for a celebration.

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

I think you're selling Calderon way short. I'm not expecting miracles or that he'll turn the team around or spearhead a 50 win season but Calderon is a light years ahead of Felton when it comes to running a team. He's not Chris Paul, but Felton is atrocious and perhaps isn't even an NBA caliber player anymore. Btw, I'm talking offense here. Probably not much of a difference on defense between Calderon and Felton.

But Calderon consistently has a superb to to assist ratio, averaged 8 assists last year I believe. WHen has Felton ever done that? Also , as I said Calderon is an elite shooter. Felton can shoot at all.

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

I think you're selling Calderon way short. I'm not expecting miracles or that he'll turn the team around or spearhead a 50 win season but Calderon is a light years ahead of Felton when it comes to running a team. He's not Chris Paul, but Felton is atrocious and perhaps isn't even an NBA caliber player anymore. Btw, I'm talking offense here. Probably not much of a difference on defense between Calderon and Felton.

But Calderon consistently has a superb to to assist ratio, averaged 8 assists last year I believe. WHen has Felton ever done that? Also , as I said Calderon is an elite shooter. Felton can shoot at all.

mreinman wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

I think you're selling Calderon way short. I'm not expecting miracles or that he'll turn the team around or spearhead a 50 win season but Calderon is a light years ahead of Felton when it comes to running a team. He's not Chris Paul, but Felton is atrocious and perhaps isn't even an NBA caliber player anymore. Btw, I'm talking offense here. Probably not much of a difference on defense between Calderon and Felton.

But Calderon consistently has a superb to to assist ratio, averaged 8 assists last year I believe. WHen has Felton ever done that? Also , as I said Calderon is an elite shooter. Felton can shoot at all.

Felton's rise and fall from grace, to resurrection to excommunication was epic, he went from

- Excellent signing by Donnie Walsh

- Robbed of an All-Star spot

- Dantoni ran him into the ground

- Hate to see him included in the Melo deal

- Billups > Felton

- Cupcakes

- Felton is better than Lin

- Ray of Hope

- He's a backup

- Felon

- Please trade him

- Calderon > Felton

He may pull a tri-fecta//// Amar'e traded in some 3 teamer where he's reacquired again

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

I think you're selling Calderon way short. I'm not expecting miracles or that he'll turn the team around or spearhead a 50 win season but Calderon is a light years ahead of Felton when it comes to running a team. He's not Chris Paul, but Felton is atrocious and perhaps isn't even an NBA caliber player anymore. Btw, I'm talking offense here. Probably not much of a difference on defense between Calderon and Felton.

But Calderon consistently has a superb to to assist ratio, averaged 8 assists last year I believe. WHen has Felton ever done that? Also , as I said Calderon is an elite shooter. Felton can shoot at all.

Felton's rise and fall from grace, to resurrection to excommunication was epic, he went from

- Excellent signing by Donnie Walsh

- Robbed of an All-Star spot

- Dantoni ran him into the ground

- Hate to see him included in the Melo deal

- Billups > Felton

- Cupcakes

- Felton is better than Lin

- Ray of Hope

- He's a backup

- Felon

- Please trade him

- Calderon > Felton

He may pull a tri-fecta//// Amar'e traded in some 3 teamer where he's reacquired again

I don't think there was ever a "resurrection". He lost his confidence, probably had serious marital issues and his whole life crashed. Its kinda sad because he was really not a bad guy, he has just become a really bad player.