Knicks · IS CALDERON ELITE STATUS (page 3)

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Unless Larkin can get to the rim and he is diminutive I don't think Calderon is a slam dunk offensively as Nix is suggesting. He doesn't penetrate and won't be much of an upgrade over Felton and prigioni as most think. He certainly doesn't make up for his difficiences defensively. His shooting will be great. I love PGs who are automatic from the perimeter. Keeps the defense on their toes but we might really struggle and be relegated to a being a jumpshooting team again. No easy baskets

oh, I agree with you. I think calderon can run offense, but he has a lot of flaws and there will be many nights where some people may actually miss felton..LOL

I think you're selling Calderon way short. I'm not expecting miracles or that he'll turn the team around or spearhead a 50 win season but Calderon is a light years ahead of Felton when it comes to running a team. He's not Chris Paul, but Felton is atrocious and perhaps isn't even an NBA caliber player anymore. Btw, I'm talking offense here. Probably not much of a difference on defense between Calderon and Felton.

But Calderon consistently has a superb to to assist ratio, averaged 8 assists last year I believe. WHen has Felton ever done that? Also , as I said Calderon is an elite shooter. Felton can shoot at all.

Felton's rise and fall from grace, to resurrection to excommunication was epic, he went from

- Excellent signing by Donnie Walsh

- Robbed of an All-Star spot

- Dantoni ran him into the ground

- Hate to see him included in the Melo deal

- Billups > Felton

- Cupcakes

- Felton is better than Lin

- Ray of Hope

- He's a backup

- Felon

- Please trade him

- Calderon > Felton

He may pull a tri-fecta//// Amar'e traded in some 3 teamer where he's reacquired again

I don't think there was ever a "resurrection". He lost his confidence, probably had serious marital issues and his whole life crashed. Its kinda sad because he was really not a bad guy, he has just become a really bad player.

I agree about Felton not being a bad guy and his life falling apart. It will be interesting to see if the decline continues if he is backing up Nelson.

Felton was never really ver good, but he had some good stretches during his career. I'm just glad he's no longer here. Don't have to worry about him being in shape or not. Don't have to watch him jacking shots he has no business taking or missing wide open players cuz he can't see more than 2ft around him. Don't have to watch him getting beat over and over and over again. Sure we just see Jose getting beat over and over again, but just so long as I don't have to endure Felton's righteous indignation as if he's better than he is and we should all understand that.

nixluva wrote:Felton was never really ver good, but he had some good stretches during his career. I'm just glad he's no longer here. Don't have to worry about him being in shape or not. Don't have to watch him jacking shots he has no business taking or missing wide open players cuz he can't see more than 2ft around him. Don't have to watch him getting beat over and over and over again. Sure we just see Jose getting beat over and over again, but just so long as I don't have to endure Felton's righteous indignation as if he's better than he is and we should all understand that.

I think woodson has to take some of the blame, we became a jump shooting Iso's team. When MDA was coaching, felton seem to have more freedom to create, the offense didn't go through melo, it went through the PG, which is why MDA's pg's do so well if their in good shape.

You remember when Felton would grab the rebound and jet all the way down the court, catching the defense back peddling for easy layups, his PnR's were crisp, lobs were perfect, penetration was frequent, and kick outs to gallo and chandler were the norm. woodson turned the offensive into some half court nonsense, hand cuffing the PG into a player that just brings the ball down and throw into the post and clear out. That was the same stuff he was doing in charlotte, the guy was a run and gun pG in college. Thats the kind of offense he thrives in.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Man TK it's been a while, use to argue all the time with u on RGM. I have a question. People are always bringing up Nash and Paul stating that they are who we need to win a title. How many have they won? Now I don't consider Calderon to be an elite Pg but I do feel he's miles ahead of Felton. He has better control of the offense and a player doesn't have to have a high assist rate to show his control.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:He's as good as John Paxson. So now we just need a few more parts...

yep, pippen, Jordan and Rodman and we are set..

LOL.

seriously, i see nobody out there like paul or nash. remember that not too long ago folks were lamenting the demise of the low-post, back to the basket big man? how many are out there nowadays? add in the ability to be a playmaker and shot creator for others and we find that these players are scarce. the more scarce they are the more a system becomes necessary. i wish it were otherwise because i love to watch players who possess basketball skills and IQ.

that said, tony parker has learned to become ambidextrous, and to keep his head up on the dribble, AND most importantly maintain his dribble. and then there's duncan, whose skills as a post player are so very rare....

I actually don't mind a system, but as you said the more these special type players become scarce, the more system ball you will see.. and that is fine, but I rathter see the highly skilled, high IQ players play in a system...

Jordan, pippen and rodman didn't need the triangle to win... but it was so effective when you have highly skilled players running just about any system.. well rounded players that is..

Jordan didn't win until he got into the triangle and Pippin didn't win anything after.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Look at some of the point guards in the NBA today and Caledron is getting labeled elite. If he is elite half the starters in the NBA are elite

Jmpasq wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:calderon last year played with a very good ball moving team so the pressure was not on him to create and orchestrate as much.

if the triangle successfully promotes a similar level of ball movement then calderon will be fine.

the issue team-wide will be the defensive end and will drag the team down a good five wins. this means the offense has to be good for a good 10-15 wins to make a splash.

in an era that will continue to move towards system basketball i think the two extremes of (1) the point guard position as we know it and (2) the isolation scorer will fade because every player in a system offense will be a ball-sharer.

I agree with both points, but I will say this. A very skilled PG like Paul and Nash(prime) will still be able to control the ball and the offense because they are just super effective doing so.. so i guess unless you have PG's of that skill level, you will see the PG position operated differently.

Calderon is a good shooter, but he is an average PG and I mean average.. Can't defend a lick, doesn't penetrate decent passser...

I am just curious were any of these words that posters are throwing around like "elite" ever used for calderon when he was with the raptors? or the mavs?

Look at some of the point guards in the NBA today and Caledron is getting labeled elite. If he is elite half the starters in the NBA are elite

He's definitely above avg,that would be top 10, I think you would have to be top 5 to be elite.

Definately not elite but his skillset matches well with the triangle. I think he will prosper like Kerr and Paxson.

NYKBocker wrote:Definately not elite but his skillset matches well with the triangle. I think he will prosper like Kerr and Paxson.

I thinks he's be beter then both of them. More like Mark price

Elite? Calderon surely is not elite but he has some great qualities to his game outside of DEF
I think he needs a Lance Stephenson type SG or Bledsoe type PG to compliment each other, both of which are pretty good defenders at the 1/2 and can defend some 3

CP3

after Chris Paul it really can be debatable with many question marks, with no real order, and some PG/SG eligibility, especially with Westbrook

Westbrook
Wall

I think you can still say the above with some of the lower are elite/2nd tier

Curry
Irving
Conley
Lilliard
Lowry

Parker *he is good but he also plays within a system/team players/ and talents that play WELL UNSELFISHLY*
Dragic, can play just as good as most of them and probably is the most price effective PG

Bledsoe *he can really be higher given his defensive abilities and physical abilities*

Lawson

Jeff Teague

The HURT/Health Concerns
=============================
Rose??
Rhondo?
Jrue Holiday?

Rubio

The RISING
===============
MCW
Is Giannis PG eligible this season if he STARTS at PG?

Rooks
========
Elfrid Payton *my under dog pick at ROY after Parker*
Smart/Exum

The younger vets
====================
Darren Collison
Livingston
Greviez Vasquez

The young and may surprise
===============================
Tony Wroten *think he is supremely talented but plays behind MCW*

Gel Mekal
Nick Calathes
Larkin could even be here

The under rated vets
=======================

Bayless/Sessions/DJ Augistine

The older vets
==================

Calderon *not saying players under her are not better than him or vice versa but there are other intangibles like team talent/system/fit/chemistry that play a role*

Mo Williams
Nelson
Devin Harris
Hinrich

DEF first PG's
===============

Beverely
Norris Cole
Avery Bradley

Jarret Jack is between a DEF/SCORING PG/SG/SF who had a bad year

Scoring PG's, SG/PGs
========================

Monta Ellis
Kemba Walker
Brandon Jennings

Lance Stephenson
George Hill *more of a shooter/facilitator, think he is most comparable to Calderon because of their contracts/length of years*

Crawford/Olindipo/Lou Williams/ Rose??/ Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

Patrick Mills
Lin
Foye/Robinson/

Question Marks????
Napier/ Brandon Knight/Nate Walters/ both McCallams (Kings and Portland

There are still a lot of other PG's that can contribute at a high level, some at more limited minutes like

Deron Williams
Andre Miller

The rest???

Ridnour
Gary Neal
Barea
Will Bynum
Felton
Jordan Farmer
Isiah Cannon/Troy Daniels

I can't call Calderone elite, but he is a definite upgrade over what we have been seeing for the last few years. Hopefully his defense won't become such a huge negative, that his playing time becomes limited.

Dime Magazine has Jose at #16. That's WAY better than Felton. This is all that matters. Jose is a major upgrade over what we had. PERIOD!!!

16. JOSE CALDERON
Surprised he’s on the list? You shouldn’t be. The league-leader in three-point percentage last year (46.1) also boasted the sixth-highest assists per game (8.6). Yes, he might have a hard time defending nearly anyone (really, he is an atrocious defender) and yes, he probably didn’t deserve a four-year contract worth a shade under $30 million at the ripe age of 32. But he is one of the league’s best game/floor managers, not to mention the holder of the highest career free throw percentage ever in a season (98.1). He might not be an explosive athlete, but Calderon is a smart vet who rarely makes mistakes.

Elite Jose reminds me of "Pretty" Willie McGee

nixluva wrote:Dime Magazine has Jose at #16. That's WAY better than Felton. This is all that matters. Jose is a major upgrade over what we had. PERIOD!!!

16. JOSE CALDERON
Surprised he’s on the list? You shouldn’t be. The league-leader in three-point percentage last year (46.1) also boasted the sixth-highest assists per game (8.6). Yes, he might have a hard time defending nearly anyone (really, he is an atrocious defender) and yes, he probably didn’t deserve a four-year contract worth a shade under $30 million at the ripe age of 32. But he is one of the league’s best game/floor managers, not to mention the holder of the highest career free throw percentage ever in a season (98.1). He might not be an explosive athlete, but Calderon is a smart vet who rarely makes mistakes.

He shot 98.1% on free throws?! They have free throw shooting machines less accurate than that, that's pretty incredible. But then again if he doesn't get to the line it won't mean anything.

Nooo. Lol. He's the quintessential pass first pg who can shoot but his defense is horrible

Pablo is closing games for the ELITE

This is an elite thread

Calderon played very poorly the last few games. His only great game was versus Dallas.

Knicks1969 wrote:Calderon played very poorly the last few games. His only great game was versus Dallas.

We have to give Jose a chance to get it going. I really hate to see how impatient Knick fans are. Dude is coming off a long layoff and has had to get it back on the fly and is behind in his developing chemistry with his teammates. It's very understandable that he might struggle trying to get his game back. It's been his history to be a very efficient player and I think he will eventually get his game back. Prigs has been relatively healthy and is in mid season form. We need Jose to get to that same point.

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Calderon played very poorly the last few games. His only great game was versus Dallas.

We have to give Jose a chance to get it going. I really hate to see how impatient Knick fans are. Dude is coming off a long layoff and has had to get it back on the fly and is behind in his developing chemistry with his teammates. It's very understandable that he might struggle trying to get his game back. It's been his history to be a very efficient player and I think he will eventually get his game back. Prigs has been relatively healthy and is in mid season form. We need Jose to get to that same point.

I am not complaining. Just stating what I've noticed. I much rather have him in the back court then Shump as our play maker. Guys are not setting picks to allow him space to lunch his shots. He is playing with a bunch of selfish players who never look for the shooters on the wing. Specifically, when Amare is on the court.