NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
Good point. It does add a wrinkle to our thought process. But at that point in time, Amare was a star caliber player...even a MVP candidate in some circles, which is something to be considered.
Plus we kept Fields, who at the time was an all-rookie SG. We also got back Billups, who was still putting up close to all-star numbers and had proven chemistry with Melo.
nixluva wrote:Love is a great number 2. He's not a guy that you say he's gonna close out the game for us. He's a great "Middle of the Game" guy. He's not the same as Melo who teams looked at as an Alpha, even if some Knick fans don't see him that way. He's closer to an Alpha than Love is. Love compiles stats but teams don't really have to change what they do for him. He doesn't tilt a defense in the way that the Alpha's do.We gave up nice young role players, but not two #1's like Wiggins and Bennet. No matter what people think of their chances to be great players they were overall #1's. Minny didn't lose out in this deal. They can still sell the potential of great young talent.
Would you Trade Beas and Oden for Love? Two overall no. 1's!!!!
Clev wins one chip is it worth it?
Nalod wrote:nixluva wrote:Love is a great number 2. He's not a guy that you say he's gonna close out the game for us. He's a great "Middle of the Game" guy. He's not the same as Melo who teams looked at as an Alpha, even if some Knick fans don't see him that way. He's closer to an Alpha than Love is. Love compiles stats but teams don't really have to change what they do for him. He doesn't tilt a defense in the way that the Alpha's do.We gave up nice young role players, but not two #1's like Wiggins and Bennet. No matter what people think of their chances to be great players they were overall #1's. Minny didn't lose out in this deal. They can still sell the potential of great young talent.
Would you Trade Beas and Oden for Love? Two overall no. 1's!!!!
Clev wins one chip is it worth it?
The question is Wiggins, Bennet, plus pick vs. Gallo, Wilson, Moz and picks. All you're saying is that it's still possible that Wiggins and Bennet are total flops, but that's always the case as no one can guarantee what a prospect will become.
I said the TWolves can "sell the potential of great young talent". That will last them for a while. No one can guarantee what a young player is gonna do 100%. I think tho that the potential upside of Wiggins is greater than what we gave up for Melo. I think Wiggins has the potential to be an Alpha. If Wiggins becomes an Alpha then they made out just fine. None of the players we gave up had the potential to be an Alpha.
TheGame wrote:Clev gave up more. Wiggins is going to be a star. You could see it in summer league. The guy has great talent and demeanor with a defensive attitude and a solid perimeter game. The only thing that might stop him are injuries. Bennett has great talent, but he has no idea how to play in a team concept. If his BB iq improves to the point that he can get 30 minutes a game, he will be a 18 pt, 8 rb, 1.5 block type player. He is more of a question mark, but the potential is there. We gave up two guys who are solid rotation players but are not stars and a solid backup center. Clev gave up more.
Even if wiggins becomes the 2nd coming of Jordan/Lebron you have Lebron you need to win NOW
If Lebron is as good as the media and just about every fan says he is... he should have been able to win with Kyrie Irving and filler...
Cleveland mortgaged the future for what could possibly be the next dominant superstar in Wiggins just to inch a lil closer to sure thing.
That being said they will obviously be a great team...
How will this affect them in 7 years... that is what giving up Wiggins really is all about.
franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
yes context is everything. what we gave up for melo was too much, just based on the terrible chemistry that stoudemire and anthony would inevitably have. can't say the same for love and lebron or love and irving.
nyvector16 wrote:If Lebron is as good as the media and just about every fan says he is... he should have been able to win with Kyrie Irving and filler...
Cleveland mortgaged the future for what could possibly be the next dominant superstar in Wiggins just to inch a lil closer to sure thing.That being said they will obviously be a great team...
How will this affect them in 7 years... that is what giving up Wiggins really is all about.
Like us Cleveland is starved for 1 championship. They haven't seen a championship in Cleveland sports!
dk7th wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
yes context is everything. what we gave up for melo was too much, just based on the terrible chemistry that stoudemire and anthony would inevitably have. can't say the same for love and lebron or love and irving.
Funny how you put so much stock on Chemistry to invalidate the worth of the Melo trade and then in the same sentence talk about the success of the Love trade in that respect when they have yet to play a game much less have 1 practice together...
love adds more value for a desparate need at his position for the Cavs... so of course they have to give more. the problem with the Melo trade was that the difference between Gallo at the time v/s Melo at the time... the difference wasn't as much as whoever Kevin Love would replace on the Cavs.
relatively speaking, we probably did give up more for an "upgrade" v/s what cavs gave for an outright "position fill". tristan thompson is a rebounder and not much else. klove is the most impressive PF of his time.
Knixkik wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
Good point. It does add a wrinkle to our thought process. But at that point in time, Amare was a star caliber player...even a MVP candidate in some circles, which is something to be considered.
Plus we kept Fields, who at the time was an all-rookie SG. We also got back Billups, who was still putting up close to all-star numbers and had proven chemistry with Melo.
Yeah. At the time, everyone thought that Fields was a surefire lock as a starter in this league. He was leading 2-guards in rpg and IMO, seemed to be a much better all-around player than he turned out to be. I'd at least say his value surpassed Anthony Bennett's at this point in their respective careers. Looking back, I wish we George Hill'd him like the Spurs did to get a superior player (Kawhi Leonard) instead of a flash in the pan (George Hill). Come to think of it, I thought Landry had a shot to be everything Kawhi Leonard is today in MDA's system and was shocked by how quickly he became irrelevant.
nyvector16 wrote:dk7th wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
yes context is everything. what we gave up for melo was too much, just based on the terrible chemistry that stoudemire and anthony would inevitably have. can't say the same for love and lebron or love and irving.
Funny how you put so much stock on Chemistry to invalidate the worth of the Melo trade and then in the same sentence talk about the success of the Love trade in that respect when they have yet to play a game much less have 1 practice together...
as the post below yours clarifies, the main issue of chemistry between those two was based on redundancy and overlap (fit) just as much as their inability to make playmaking passes for teammates. if you look at their assist numbers you knew it was doomed to failure. that's putting too much burden on a point guard, and felton fell woefully short in that role.
the cavs have three guys who will fit better, much more complementary. irving makes 6 assists a game, lebron 7 assists a game, and just last season saw an uptick in love's assists to a healthy 4.5/game. those three alone will account for 15-16 assists a game next season.
moreover all three have a knack for making plays for others, based on their usage:assist ratios. and because they can spread the burden of scoring you will likely see a very healthy dip in FGA to around 15 or so per player, raising efficiency.
varejau has evolved into a much better ball mover and passer as well.
NardDogNation wrote:Knixkik wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
Good point. It does add a wrinkle to our thought process. But at that point in time, Amare was a star caliber player...even a MVP candidate in some circles, which is something to be considered.
Plus we kept Fields, who at the time was an all-rookie SG. We also got back Billups, who was still putting up close to all-star numbers and had proven chemistry with Melo.
Yeah. At the time, everyone thought that Fields was a surefire lock as a starter in this league. He was leading 2-guards in rpg and IMO, seemed to be a much better all-around player than he turned out to be. I'd at least say his value surpassed Anthony Bennett's at this point in their respective careers. Looking back, I wish we George Hill'd him like the Spurs did to get a superior player (Kawhi Leonard) instead of a flash in the pan (George Hill). Come to think of it, I thought Landry had a shot to be everything Kawhi Leonard is today in MDA's system and was shocked by how quickly he became irrelevant.
Yeah i can never understand how a player like him falls so hard and so quickly. He shot 39% from the 3 as a rookie and was a great rebounder. The following season our shooting coach ruined his shot and the rest of his game fell apart. He was a safe bet to be our long-term SG, now he's barely an NBA player.
Knixkik wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Knixkik wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
Good point. It does add a wrinkle to our thought process. But at that point in time, Amare was a star caliber player...even a MVP candidate in some circles, which is something to be considered.
Plus we kept Fields, who at the time was an all-rookie SG. We also got back Billups, who was still putting up close to all-star numbers and had proven chemistry with Melo.
Yeah. At the time, everyone thought that Fields was a surefire lock as a starter in this league. He was leading 2-guards in rpg and IMO, seemed to be a much better all-around player than he turned out to be. I'd at least say his value surpassed Anthony Bennett's at this point in their respective careers. Looking back, I wish we George Hill'd him like the Spurs did to get a superior player (Kawhi Leonard) instead of a flash in the pan (George Hill). Come to think of it, I thought Landry had a shot to be everything Kawhi Leonard is today in MDA's system and was shocked by how quickly he became irrelevant.
Yeah i can never understand how a player like him falls so hard and so quickly. He shot 39% from the 3 as a rookie and was a great rebounder. The following season our shooting coach ruined his shot and the rest of his game fell apart. He was a safe bet to be our long-term SG, now he's barely an NBA player.
He seems too comfortable with having gotten his big payday. It looks like he's just going through the motions now and trying to do as many publicity stunts as he can to keep his name relevant...
Maybe he doesn't love the game and played it because he was big as shit.
H1AND1 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Cleveland gave up and got much more
Who is the worse defender? Love or Melo?
The only aspect of defense where it's not close is defensive rebounding. Otherwise, it's close.
Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Cleveland gave up and got much more
Considering they were a similar age at the time of the trade, and Melo had been to the playoffs each year, while Love never has, plus Love has had a larger injury history, i would have to disagree.
There was a gigantic difference in supporting casts. Melo's team plus the package we gave won 57 games without him the next year. Love's team plus Cleveland's package probably will win about half of that.
would you have traded Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, a pick, and a swap for Wiggins, Bennett, and a first? ummmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmmmm let me think about that [/sarcasm]
NardDogNation wrote:Knixkik wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:One way to look at NY having given up more is relative to what they had at the time - We were left with Stat and little else- Cleveland still has 2 all stars and depth. And their draft picks after this year.
Good point. It does add a wrinkle to our thought process. But at that point in time, Amare was a star caliber player...even a MVP candidate in some circles, which is something to be considered.
Plus we kept Fields, who at the time was an all-rookie SG. We also got back Billups, who was still putting up close to all-star numbers and had proven chemistry with Melo.
Yeah. At the time, everyone thought that Fields was a surefire lock as a starter in this league. He was leading 2-guards in rpg and IMO, seemed to be a much better all-around player than he turned out to be. I'd at least say his value surpassed Anthony Bennett's at this point in their respective careers. Looking back, I wish we George Hill'd him like the Spurs did to get a superior player (Kawhi Leonard) instead of a flash in the pan (George Hill). Come to think of it, I thought Landry had a shot to be everything Kawhi Leonard is today in MDA's system and was shocked by how quickly he became irrelevant.
The Nuggets knew he wasnt, they didnt want him
So am I the only one who's so immature not to see the humor in this threads title?
Love's package vs Melo's Package???
We don't know the full details of the Cleveland deal - but it's surprising that MN didn't include at least one of those salary dump guys in the trade as outlined thus far.
Wiggins/Bennett/2016 1st rounder from Cleveland for Love.
vs
Denver Gets:
Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick (Dario Sanic - pick in Orlando), the Warriors' 2012 second-round pick (Quincy Miller), the Warriors' 2013 second-round pick (?) and $3 million in cash (from Knicks)
Knicks gets:
Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman.
Minnesota gets:
Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry, $3 million in cash (not sure from who, likely from the Knicks)
Denver didn't do too well in the trade - though I don't know who they got in exchange for the 2014 first rounder. It's been long enough that I don't think Wilson Chandler will return to his pre-hip injury form. The jury is out on whether Gallo will make it all the way back - he had some excellent moments with the team though. Mozgov has had flashed of brilliances, then returns to the deeeeeep (Cole Aldrich deep) bench for stretches. Not sure why he can't seem to stick with regular PT when at times he's unstoppable.
EnySpree wrote:So am I the only one who's so immature not to see the humor in this threads title?Love's package vs Melo's Package???
Im curious to see what Magic Johnson says about the two. Im sure we all are.
fishmike wrote:EnySpree wrote:So am I the only one who's so immature not to see the humor in this threads title?Love's package vs Melo's Package???
Im curious to see what Magic Johnson says about the two. Im sure we all are.
I'm curious to see what Phil says since he already said this////
Jackson also said that he had not contacted Brian Shaw, the coach of the Denver Nuggets. Shaw played for and coached under Jackson with the Los Angeles Lakers, but he is under contract and has pledged to stay with Denver. Besides, Jackson said, he would be reluctant to deal with the Nuggets after the Knicks sent them four players and three draft picks as part of the 2011 trade for Anthony.“Denver has everything that we owned for the last few years,” Jackson said, deadpan, “so there’s nothing else I want to give them.”
Translating Phil, the Denver trade was too rich
