Knicks · Why Knicks Fans Should Believe (page 1)

Let's face it, last year was a disaster and it crushed the faith of many a Knicks fan. It's evident by the low expectations of many Knicks fans how much doubt is now present among the fanbase and the media. Here's the thing tho. It's not as bad as it seems. The thing that brought down the Knicks the most was the presence of 2 people:

and

THEY'RE NO LONGER HERE!!! The improvement this team should see just removing those two men is enormous.
both Woodson and Felton represented the leadership of this team and if those 2 were leading the ship they had to perform. THEY DIDN'T. Woody was undermined by Dolan and then lost any semblance of confidence in his decision making. He was never very good but once he lost confidence in himself he was DONE>

Felton was never really very good either and with his personal problems that just made it even worse. This team was immensely dependent on getting good PG play. We saw how much of a negative impact it had on the team in the playoffs 2 years ago when Felton didn't play well. It killed the entire teams production. Last year he submarined the season along with other players, but mostly due to his poor play. The PG is supposed to help all the players on a team perform better. When your PG actually makes your players WORSE you have problems of epic proportions. That's how you end up a 37 win team. Mind you that they went 16-7 to close the year or they might have been even worse. The winning at the end had a lot to do with JR finally coming around.

So now we have corrected the issues at Head Coach and PG. That tandem is so key to the success of any team. Just look at how it effected the Nets when Deron couldn't get it done. They had to rely on Livingston to make up for what Deron wasn't giving them. It's just that important. Now we have a system that takes a lot of the pressure off the PG spot and having better PG's to begin with makes it even better. Phil and Fish are going to install a system that allows the team to function at a higher level rather than the mess that we watched last year under Woody. Some fans will try to make it seem like this team is totally devoid of talent but don't listen to them. It's not true and never was. This team has some talent and mainly just needed better leadership on the bench and on the floor. Phil, Fish and Jose will prove to be a huge improvement over Dolan, Woody and Felton. If you can't see the difference then God help you. The presence of Phil, Fish and Jose will make everyone better and that's one reason for hope.

There are other things that should help as well but really starting at the top is the real key. Fish and Jose are the brains of the team in addition to Prigs and Larkin. We have a much better connection from Head Coach to the players on the floor. That will be huge. Getting players in their spots and understanding what needs to be done. Not having Felton out there to drag the rest of the team down makes a huge difference. This team's problems started at the PG spot and on the Bench. Phil has removed that negative influence on the rest of the team.

Sorry our problems were bigger than any one player or coach

How about these pics

I see 3 culprits here and none of them involve Felton.

Was Woodson guilty of schemes and poor communication

Probably so, it doesn't excuse the effort and basic BB IQ in some of those shots

For the record Felton tried his best, he's a limited guard

It's our mistake for thinking he was clearly better than Lin when he's not

this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game

F500ONE wrote:Sorry our problems were bigger than any one player or coach

How about these pics

I see 3 culprits here and none of them involve Felton.

Was Woodson guilty of schemes and poor communication

Probably so, it doesn't excuse the effort and basic BB IQ in some of those shots

For the record Felton tried his best, he's a limited guard

It's our mistake for thinking he was clearly better than Lin when he's not

I just lost my appetite

fishmike wrote:

this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game

Nice.

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game

Nice.

these guys are so funny. They are only here to hate on the Knicks and Melo and even screw *that* up. Cant make this stuff up

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game

Nice.

these guys are so funny. They are only here to hate on the Knicks and Melo and even screw *that* up. Cant make this stuff up

who kidnapped old fishmike?

It's easy to find really bad examples of Knicks players from last year. My thing is that it really matters what your coach is doing. Why is it that Thibs doesn't have this happen to his teams? How does Doc find a way to improve his teams defense? It's easy to just blame the players but IMO a LOT of the issues this team had on offense and defense was due to the extremely poor coaching of Woody. There's a right way to do things and a wrong way. Woodson did things the wrong way last year. On top of that you didn't have clear floor leadership. WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THIS TEAM?

Right now you have a clear leadership of Phil, Fish and Jose. They make sense together and have PROVEN abilities as leaders. Phil is known as a leader. Fish is known as a leader and Jose is kown as a leader. Could we say this about the team last year??? So yeah a few guys can make jokes and point to the results of the bad leadership but those plays weren't the cause. They were only the symptoms of bad leadership.

nixluva wrote:It's easy to find really bad examples of Knicks players from last year. My thing is that it really matters what your coach is doing. Why is it that Thibs doesn't have this happen to his teams? How does Doc find a way to improve his teams defense? It's easy to just blame the players but IMO a LOT of the issues this team had on offense and defense was due to the extremely poor coaching of Woody. There's a right way to do things and a wrong way. Woodson did things the wrong way last year. On top of that you didn't have clear floor leadership. WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THIS TEAM?

Right now you have a clear leadership of Phil, Fish and Jose. They make sense together and have PROVEN abilities as leaders. Phil is known as a leader. Fish is known as a leader and Jose is kown as a leader. Could we say this about the team last year??? So yeah a few guys can make jokes and point to the results of the bad leadership but those plays weren't the cause. They were only the symptoms of bad leadership.

I get your point.

You feel our biggest weaknesses were point guard and coach

I don't think we had any 1 or 2 major problems

Here's another

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/...

These were times you kind of felt sorry for Woodson.

He was trying to do his job, although some players made it real challenging for him

Shump was right in principle but considering the season he was having////

He had no room or business bone picking Melo, especially in the huddle while game execution was of import

Our effort in games were often times worst than coaching

Remember the Wizards game when we failed to get back on D on multiple occasions

Our guard play was often as bad as our point guard play

How long had Shumpert played badly as our starting 2 along with J.R.'s horrific start to season

What about our late game execution?

Woody clearly drawing up plays, players not paying attention in the huddle arguing with each other

Going out losing balls, launching hail mary shots

It's easy to find good examples too.

Take for instance when we make trades and post Youtube videos only what a player does or did well

Or site a game which a player played well using this to define future outcomes

I am excited to see if the Triangle proves to be an equal opportunity system.

Guys hopefully enjoying playing with each other on the court, I love THJR's spirit[at times overjoyed much] but I'll take it

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's easy to find really bad examples of Knicks players from last year. My thing is that it really matters what your coach is doing. Why is it that Thibs doesn't have this happen to his teams? How does Doc find a way to improve his teams defense? It's easy to just blame the players but IMO a LOT of the issues this team had on offense and defense was due to the extremely poor coaching of Woody. There's a right way to do things and a wrong way. Woodson did things the wrong way last year. On top of that you didn't have clear floor leadership. WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THIS TEAM?

Right now you have a clear leadership of Phil, Fish and Jose. They make sense together and have PROVEN abilities as leaders. Phil is known as a leader. Fish is known as a leader and Jose is kown as a leader. Could we say this about the team last year??? So yeah a few guys can make jokes and point to the results of the bad leadership but those plays weren't the cause. They were only the symptoms of bad leadership.

I get your point.

You feel our biggest weaknesses were point guard and coach

I don't think we had any 1 or 2 major problems

Here's another

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/...

These were times you kind of felt sorry for Woodson.

He was trying to do his job, although some players made it real challenging for him

Shump was right in principle but considering the season he was having////

He had no room or business bone picking Melo, especially in the huddle while game execution was of import

Our effort in games were often times worst than coaching

Remember the Wizards game when we failed to get back on D on multiple occasions

Our guard play was often as bad as our point guard play

How long had Shumpert played badly as our starting 2 along with J.R.'s horrific start to season

What about our late game execution?

Woody clearly drawing up plays, players not paying attention in the huddle arguing with each other

Going out losing balls, launching hail mary shots

It's easy to find good examples too.

Take for instance when we make trades and post Youtube videos only what a player does or did well

Or site a game which a player played well using this to define future outcomes

I am excited to see if the Triangle proves to be an equal opportunity system.

Guys hopefully enjoying playing with each other on the court, I love THJR's spirit[at times overjoyed much] but I'll take it

When I post my videos it's not to say that everything will always go perfect like highlight videos. it's to show the proper way things should go if you have the right leadership then your team does the right thing more often.

Phil is here to change the culture and the attitude of the team. He got rid of Felton and Tyson cuz there were chemistry issues and he wanted to improve the chemistry of the team. Felton is a horrible leader and floor general. Jose is an excellent leader and Floor general. Felton is a mediocre offensive PG and a horrid defensive PG. Jose is an excellent shooting PG, Passer and also a horrid defensive PG but at least he doesn't compound the problem as Felton did. Felton really didn't help the team on either end of the floor and certainly not in the locker room. Jose is known as a good locker room guy. He already has talked about helping Bargs get back on track and making the game easier for Melo. The difference is night and day. To make it more clear jose is a top 20 PG and Felton is a bottom 40 PG.

Shump will play better this year. No minds games from the coach!!! He's had a full summer to work on his game. The attitude around this team won't be toxic. The system will help make things easier for Shump.

As for the Triangle it's a proven system in terms of keeping everyone involved. The Team assists are usually spread among the entire team and that is an indication of how team oriented the system is. This is just what this team needs. On every play each player is engaged and has a CLEAR role. With Woody that wasn't always the case. Players don't function at their highest levels when they aren't sure what they should be doing. That's what the Triangle brings to the team. The roles are clear. Fish and Phil will also work on fundamentals. Footwork and proper execution. All the little things matter and that's how teams learn to win.

That's cool, if you want to pin the majority of our failures on Felton last year go for it.

I know everything else says otherwise

F500ONE wrote:That's cool, if you want to pin the majority of our failures on Felton last year go for it.

I know everything else says otherwise

I think the point i'm trying to make is that you can look at the final result and say all those problems were the reason. I'm looking at the CAUSE of the problems. Phil is not doing damage like Dolan did messing with Woodson's coaches and firing Grunwald. Dolan making deals with JR that led to us having to deal with Chris Smith. Causing Woody to mess with Shumps head since Dolan made a promise that JR would start even though he had no business starting as he was coming off the knee surgery and his off the court crap too.

Felton was a huge problem. He wasn't in shape. He wasn't focused. He was playing horribly and wasn't capable of running the team. Woody clearly should've used Prigs with Felton more since the team played better when he did, but Wood was all mentally screwed by then thanks to Dolan. With Felton not playing well that effected all the other players that depend on the PG to play well. So yeah you can look at the results and say it was all F'd up or you can look at the root causes of the problems. DOLAN, WOODY and FELTON.

Compare those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose and what do you see? I see a clear distinction in the level of leadership we have now. That will have a direct impact on how everyone else performs. This is why I disagree with your and other doubters take on the team. Think of it this way. The reason the QB on a football team is so important is because he directs everyone else on the field and makes the key decisions with the ball. It makes a difference if you have a Jamarcus Russell verses Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. You may not have the best talent but whatever talent you do have will be better with a Tom Brady running the team. A Mark Sanchez will only highlight the lack of talent and make things worse. Felton was our Sanchez.

F500ONE wrote:That's cool, if you want to pin the majority of our failures on Felton last year go for it.

I know everything else says otherwise

do you?

I challenge you to find a greater disparity between wins and losses...
Ray Felton last year:
Wins: 31 games, .445 FG%, .340 3FG%
Losses: 34 games, .352 FG%, .300 3FG%

When the starting PG hit shots we won. When the starting PG shot 35% and the defenses packed the middle and forced Woody into nonstop ISO-Melo we lost.

JR's #s are similar, but nots as drastic as Feltons. His stick out like a sore thumb. All you had to do was watch last year. Horrible guard play. Worst I have ever seen. So many nights these guys just brick shot after shot.

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:That's cool, if you want to pin the majority of our failures on Felton last year go for it.

I know everything else says otherwise

I think the point i'm trying to make is that you can look at the final result and say all those problems were the reason. I'm looking at the CAUSE of the problems. Phil is not doing damage like Dolan did messing with Woodson's coaches and firing Grunwald. Dolan making deals with JR that led to us having to deal with Chris Smith. Causing Woody to mess with Shumps head since Dolan made a promise that JR would start even though he had no business starting as he was coming off the knee surgery and his off the court crap too.

Felton was a huge problem. He wasn't in shape. He wasn't focused. He was playing horribly and wasn't capable of running the team. Woody clearly should've used Prigs with Felton more since the team played better when he did, but Wood was all mentally screwed by then thanks to Dolan. With Felton not playing well that effected all the other players that depend on the PG to play well. So yeah you can look at the results and say it was all F'd up or you can look at the root causes of the problems. DOLAN, WOODY and FELTON.

Compare those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose and what do you see? I see a clear distinction in the level of leadership we have now. That will have a direct impact on how everyone else performs. This is why I disagree with your and other doubters take on the team. Think of it this way. The reason the QB on a football team is so important is because he directs everyone else on the field and makes the key decisions with the ball. It makes a difference if you have a Jamarcus Russell verses Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. You may not have the best talent but whatever talent you do have will be better with a Tom Brady running the team. A Mark Sanchez will only highlight the lack of talent and make things worse. Felton was our Sanchez.

your a 100% right. Just watch the games and you see the #s back it up. When Felton had a decent shooting game the Knicks won. When he bricking at 35% Knicks lost. Hard when your starting PG cant break his man down, get into the paint, defend or hit a jump shot. That makes for a lot of long nights... and Felton and the Knicks had plenty of those.

in the 56 games that melo shot 18 or more times the knicks compiled a 20-36 record for .357
in the 21 games that melo shot less than 18 shots the knicks compiled a 12-9 record for .571

lol stats are cute

gunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cute

especially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cute

especially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"

That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelo

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cute

especially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"

That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelo

interesting that you keep coming back to this quote. this has been the story of melo's whole career, hasn't it? you wonder why his teams have almost never clicked-- there's a common denominator and it isn't "the other players."

also funny how this seems to be a quote from a tweet from a writer who must have been in the room with other reporters and yet we don't hear any other tweets or quotes from them....

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cute

especially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"

That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelo

interesting that you keep coming back to this quote. this has been the story of melo's whole career, hasn't it? you wonder why his teams have almost never clicked-- there's a common denominator and it isn't "the other players."

Interesting that Phil Jackson resigned Melo to a five year deal and also said that. Apparently you and Phil don't see things the same. You might have 13 fingers but I know you don't have 13 rings.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cute

especially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"

That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelo

interesting that you keep coming back to this quote. this has been the story of melo's whole career, hasn't it? you wonder why his teams have almost never clicked-- there's a common denominator and it isn't "the other players."

But to be fair, I don't think you can say the problem is always one or the other. Sometimes it very well could've been because of Melo's frustrating tendency to favor a ball stopping style AND THEN SOMETIMES it could've been because the cast around him was putrid. Or, couldn't it sometimes be a combination?

I'm not trying to defend one argument over the next just making the point that things are rarely black and white. As much as I have been and am personally critical of Melos game I don't think you can _always_ pin the blame on him for a teams success or failure