I keep reading various posters state that this team is essentially the same as the 54 win team of 2 years ago.
It ain't true. The only significant players from that team still on this team are Melo, JR and Pablo.
Gone are very integral parts of that team: Tyson, Felton, Kidd (3 starters), Novak, Rasheed, Dirty Kurty, Kenyon, and Cope were big contributors off the bench. Remember Kidds' and Rasheed's leadership? Kenyon's unexpected excellent condition and defense? Cope's scoring rate and ability to stretch the floor?
Amare and Shumpert were coming off injuries, barely played and were ineffective when they did. They weren't really even a part of that team.
As a result, this is a very different team than that one. I'm not saying this one is better or worse, this is *NOT AT ALL* "basically the same team." The fact that 2012 saw 54 wins has zero correlation to what the coming season will bring.
I agree. We need to prove to FAs that we're moving in the right direction, 54 wins shouldn't be the be all end all for next season.
GustavBahler wrote:I agree. We need to prove to FAs that we're moving in the right direction, 54 wins shouldn't be the be all end all for next season.
Its a different team now from that one. So we really can't use that team as a example of what is to come.
It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation.
Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
nixluva wrote:It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation. Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
biggest difference-maker was kidd. kidd WAS the system. you lose him to retirement and the wheels fall off the bus. pablo performed well when kidd broke down, justifying that he should have gotten more steady minutes spelling kidd much earlier in the season.
you lose kidd you lose cohesion and continuity and leadership. he made the team better. now instead of kidd we rely on the triangle to accomplish the same thing.
I see just as many, if not more posters who think that this is closer to the 37 win team of last year and the sky is falling. I don't think its as bad as that eiter. We should be somewhere exactly in between- 45 wins is a reasonable expectation.
I agree with the OP, this current group has little resemblence to that 54 win group, so it really shouldnt be mentioned any longer in comparison with the current group.
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation. Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
biggest difference-maker was kidd. kidd WAS the system. you lose him to retirement and the wheels fall off the bus. pablo performed well when kidd broke down, justifying that he should have gotten more steady minutes spelling kidd much earlier in the season.
you lose kidd you lose cohesion and continuity and leadership. he made the team better. now instead of kidd we rely on the triangle to accomplish the same thing.
Kidd's 3pt shooting was a big part of that success. Once his shot deserted him Kidd was less vocal. I think it was because he felt he shouldn't talk if he wasn't delivering. I respect that. Kidd came in thinking he was going to be a back up to Lin as a mentor, but also to close games. When Lin left, Woodson put him into the starting lineup and ran him into the ground. By the second half of the season he had nothing left.
I remember there were games that Kidd missed, and some here - I might have been one- who said Kidd was really the MVP of that group.
And the thirty seven win team from last year sort of proved that.
I don't want to downplay HOF (& drunk!) Jason Kidd, but lets be honest - all of those players mentioned above were bit role players. The core group is still here - Melo.
I'd like to think that Phil has already tweaked the roster to be closer to the 54 win team vs. last years.
And Fisher is going to bring the leadership that was missing last year, which Kidd & any of the other players (KT, Rasheed) brought.
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation. Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
biggest difference-maker was kidd. kidd WAS the system. you lose him to retirement and the wheels fall off the bus. pablo performed well when kidd broke down, justifying that he should have gotten more steady minutes spelling kidd much earlier in the season.
you lose kidd you lose cohesion and continuity and leadership. he made the team better. now instead of kidd we rely on the triangle to accomplish the same thing.
I totally agree, but there was much more to it then just kidd,and rasheed and the solid role players.
Lets refer to it as "THE YEAR WE WON 54 GAMES", that way you can look at everything surrounding that team, the vibe, the culture, and the tone, from DAY 1 Then you fwd to the next yr and you come to camp, with GM's getting fired, who starts who sits, I mean it was just so much confusion.
If everyone is on the same page, it's like clock work, can you even think in your own walks of life, ever failing when everyone was on the same page. Thats what I get from that 54 win season, from the Prez to the ball boy, everyone was all in.
This team is going to surprise a lot of people, you can tack on 10 more wins, just for having a solid foundation, and system in which everyone will have a solid role.
Considering the lack of options I think this team is relatively comparable to the 54 win team in terms of its potential. We've got good balance and fit for the Triangle. It's not just Melo and 3's. We'll have some post game as well as off ball motion, spacing and passing. Hallelujah!!!
The 54 win team wasn't planned and wasn't versatile nor sustainable. They ended up playing the way they did due to injury. This team is going in with a plan and Phil has been tweaking the roster a bit to be a better fit for the Triangle. This should be a playoff team.
VDesai wrote:I see just as many, if not more posters who think that this is closer to the 37 win team of last year and the sky is falling. I don't think its as bad as that eiter. We should be somewhere exactly in between- 45 wins is a reasonable expectation.
Well the 37 win team was more recent and there have been fewer roster changes since it than the 54 win team. People usually mention the most recent season more often than earlier ones.
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation. Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
biggest difference-maker was kidd. kidd WAS the system. you lose him to retirement and the wheels fall off the bus. pablo performed well when kidd broke down, justifying that he should have gotten more steady minutes spelling kidd much earlier in the season.
you lose kidd you lose cohesion and continuity and leadership. he made the team better. now instead of kidd we rely on the triangle to accomplish the same thing.
He was pretty much our MVP first half of the season
Bonn1997 wrote:VDesai wrote:I see just as many, if not more posters who think that this is closer to the 37 win team of last year and the sky is falling. I don't think its as bad as that eiter. We should be somewhere exactly in between- 45 wins is a reasonable expectation.
Well the 37 win team was more recent and there have been fewer roster changes since it than the 54 win team. People usually mention the most recent season more often than earlier ones.
Funny how no comparison is made to the 2010-2011 team
They had a winning record at one point 7gms above .500
Who the F cares about the comparisons? It's just one aspect of how some choose to try and evaluate what this team is capable of. Let's not make this into some kind of cause. It isn't that big of a deal. How about recognizing all the positive things that have been happening with the franchise since Phil came on board? Nothing spectacular but given the limitations there have been a good number of positive developments. You can feel that things are gradually improving.
Melo, JR, THJ, Jose, STAT and Bargs are my likely biggest contributors this season. I think they can produce enough to help this team win the Atlantic and win about 50 games. I feel that way based on the skills of those players and the system and direction of Phil, Fish and staff. I feel good about this staff working with these players and getting them to play as a team and learn what it takes to win.
Bonn1997 wrote:VDesai wrote:I see just as many, if not more posters who think that this is closer to the 37 win team of last year and the sky is falling. I don't think its as bad as that eiter. We should be somewhere exactly in between- 45 wins is a reasonable expectation.
Well the 37 win team was more recent and there have been fewer roster changes since it than the 54 win team. People usually mention the most recent season more often than earlier ones.
Fewer roster changes. The great Tyson Chandler is worth 2 players.
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:It's a fair point. I will no longer bring up the 54 win team and I don't wanna hear about last years team either! We've got new coaching and new players who are likely to be in the rotation. Jose, Samuel, Jason, Quincy, Cleanthony, Larkin and Travis will have varying degrees of impact in the rotation. Some very little and others a big impact. On top of that the style of play is going to be totally different from either of the last 2 seasons. It's a completely new day in many ways. That said, much of the key players are still here with prominent roles.
biggest difference-maker was kidd. kidd WAS the system. you lose him to retirement and the wheels fall off the bus. pablo performed well when kidd broke down, justifying that he should have gotten more steady minutes spelling kidd much earlier in the season.
you lose kidd you lose cohesion and continuity and leadership. he made the team better. now instead of kidd we rely on the triangle to accomplish the same thing.
Kidd's decline played a role. I think you are leaving out the dramatic decline in the level of play of JR and Tyson. Both guys didn't show up.
Fisher more than covers for Kidd. Amare and shump as you mention are improved. We didn't have thjr who's : point shooting more than replaced coop.
This team also has an actual offensive scheme.
Kmart was ok. His stats don't show much. That dalembart doesn't replace. And our point guard is much better with Calderone as well.
I'd say all in all the 54 wins are more comparable than to last year.
You all are crazy to think that Rasheed Wallace provided more leadership than Derek fisher will. Or Kidd's 3 point shooting are not replaced by thjr.
Also, jr smith had a horrible start to the year. He finished the season in 6th man form and the Knicks record at the end while trying to make the playoffs and narrowly kissing showed signs of the 54 win team.
We are closer to the 54 win team than last years disaster.
babyKnicks wrote:Fisher more than covers for Kidd. Amare and shump as you mention are improved. We didn't have thjr who's : point shooting more than replaced coop. This team also has an actual offensive scheme.
Kmart was ok. His stats don't show much. That dalembart doesn't replace. And our point guard is much better with Calderone as well.
I'd say all in all the 54 wins are more comparable than to last year.
You all are crazy to think that Rasheed Wallace provided more leadership than Derek fisher will. Or Kidd's 3 point shooting are not replaced by thjr.
Also, jr smith had a horrible start to the year. He finished the season in 6th man form and the Knicks record at the end while trying to make the playoffs and narrowly kissing showed signs of the 54 win team.
We are closer to the 54 win team than last years disaster.
Great points. Also, the gm hired his coach just like on the 54 win team.
CrushAlot wrote:babyKnicks wrote:Fisher more than covers for Kidd. Amare and shump as you mention are improved. We didn't have thjr who's : point shooting more than replaced coop. This team also has an actual offensive scheme.
Kmart was ok. His stats don't show much. That dalembart doesn't replace. And our point guard is much better with Calderone as well.
I'd say all in all the 54 wins are more comparable than to last year.
You all are crazy to think that Rasheed Wallace provided more leadership than Derek fisher will. Or Kidd's 3 point shooting are not replaced by thjr.
Also, jr smith had a horrible start to the year. He finished the season in 6th man form and the Knicks record at the end while trying to make the playoffs and narrowly kissing showed signs of the 54 win team.
We are closer to the 54 win team than last years disaster.
Great points. Also, the gm hired his coach just like on the 54 win team.
I don't know how anyone can't feel better about this current situation than even the 54 win team. The big change is as i've mentioned before the Leadership on this team!!! Phil, Fish and Jose IMO is a big change from what we had. Then you add on the roster improvements and coaching staff which IMO is light years better than what we had. From top to bottom it's a more focused and unified group and if anyone doesn't think these PJax guys don't want to win they're crazy. They are all about winning. THIS IS PHIL'S WORLD!!!! He wants to have a team that is all about team work like his old Knicks teams.
