Knicks · one more look at the 10-11 man rotation (page 1)

I wont go with a starting line upfront as I believe it will be open to interpretation in the frontcourt

I do not believe anyone should be discounted from Aldrich to Amare for starting spots yet I think ALL 5 men will play almost nightly with less minutes due to each being an injury risk

I believe you can pen in Carmelo at SF JR at SG Calderon at PG Hardaway JR 6th man and Iman Shumpert back up SF

One of the back up PGs will play my guess is Larkin

so sitting to start AcY early Prigioni Outlaw

If I had to throw a line up out there

Dalembart --C

Bargnani --PF

Anthony--SF

JR Smith --SG

Jose Calderon--PG

6th man Tim Hardaway JR SG/SF
7th man Amare Stuodemire C/PF

Smith--PF/C

Shumpert-SF

Larkin--PG

Aldrich--C

The only guys I see getting 32+ minutes are Smith Anthony and Calderon

By rotating 5 bigs at 24-24-24-16-8 + or - etc.. will keep them healthy. The one guy I can see playing more than 24 is IF Bargnani had a career type year and just earned the PT. Amare and Smith are good players but way to frail to play mor than 24 most nights Dalembart is not good enough to earn more than 20 or so and aldrich is likely the 5th big foul trouble guy

Pretty good job. I would only differ in that I think Jason might get the nod ahead of Dalembert. No special reason except that I just get the feeling he'll prove to be a bit more effective in the Triangle while giving pretty close to the same defense as Dalembert.

I also think Prigs might get the early nod over Larkin. I think they'll give Larkin spot minutes and if he does well they'll increase his minutes. Of course this is just conjecture based on nothing since we haven't seen them together yet. Just a gut feeling.

I do agree that Fish may have to extend his rotation. It could be done with very brief minutes for a couple of guys to keep everyone's minutes low. You know he's gonna have his main 9 and it will just depend on how the games go if he'll extend it with a couple of low minute guys off the bench. Fish should be able to keep players fresh if he wants to with the depth he has.

Sorry but if amare is not traded he's starting

Amare is too good to be the 7 th man off the bench

fitzfarm wrote:Sorry but if amare is not traded he's starting

At this point in his career Amare is probably able to play 1200-1500 minutes a year. My guess is he plays in 60-70 games if his knees hold up. I dont know if starting is the best role for him.

fitzfarm wrote:Amare is too good to be the 7 th man off the bench

Who cares if Amare starts or doesnt. Hes going to get his minutes whether starting C ?PF or as sixth or seventh man. What we want is the most out of him at the best spot where he does not get hurt. I think the Knicks and Amare did a good job last year.

Whatever happens with Amare he needs to play whatever minutes or role the team needs from him. If we need him to start and play 30 mind, than he needs to be available every night. Fuck this taking days off and no back to back bullshit.

If I got into basketball shape, considering my age and injury history, I could be starting point guard for 8 minutes if I got extra nights off when i needed it. That's not a professional basketball player. If you can't play every night then you need to retire. Straight like that. We pay Acy and Smith money to play too. If they are healthy and ready then they should play over Amare. Being hurt is another story thing, then he should sit out. But none of this minutes restrictions bullshit. Play or retire bitch

Maybe if Dalembert was 5 years younger, but I just cannot see AB and CA working well as evidenced last season together at PF/SF
AB did work well at Center but is not a rebounding force, though his DEF wasn't nearly as bad in the Center position

If anything maybe Quicy Acy/Jason Smith might actually work better than Dalembert with AB

EnySpree wrote:Whatever happens with Amare he needs to play whatever minutes or role the team needs from him. If we need him to start and play 30 mind, than he needs to be available every night. Fuck this taking days off and no back to back bullshit.

If I got into basketball shape, considering my age and injury history, I could be starting point guard for 8 minutes if I got extra nights off when i needed it. That's not a professional basketball player. If you can't play every night then you need to retire. Straight like that. We pay Acy and Smith money to play too. If they are healthy and ready then they should play over Amare. Being hurt is another story thing, then he should sit out. But none of this minutes restrictions bullshit. Play or retire bitch

I dont think it goes like that. When a player starts to move up in age its wise to cut his minutes and some games. They started cutting Tim Duncans minutes at 28 years old and he's playing just as well at 38 than at 28. The last 4 years his average minutes are around 28- 29 per game and he's been cut to 33 or less for the last decade. Well Amare can play 24-28 minutes maybe 70 games and possibly so can Smith and Dalembart. Heck even Bargnani has not been healthy. These are not 40 minute players-remember when johan santana went to like 125 pitches to throw that no hitter--he was never the same again. The bottom line is we have older players with injury histories and they need to be on minute restrictions so we can get the most out of them. We have 5-6 bigs--we need to use all of them.

fitzfarm wrote:Amare is too good to be the 7 th man off the bench

I just read that he is suppose to start at Center, which is where he is most effective.

BRIGGS wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Whatever happens with Amare he needs to play whatever minutes or role the team needs from him. If we need him to start and play 30 mind, than he needs to be available every night. Fuck this taking days off and no back to back bullshit.

If I got into basketball shape, considering my age and injury history, I could be starting point guard for 8 minutes if I got extra nights off when i needed it. That's not a professional basketball player. If you can't play every night then you need to retire. Straight like that. We pay Acy and Smith money to play too. If they are healthy and ready then they should play over Amare. Being hurt is another story thing, then he should sit out. But none of this minutes restrictions bullshit. Play or retire bitch

I dont think it goes like that. When a player starts to move up in age its wise to cut his minutes and some games. They started cutting Tim Duncans minutes at 28 years old and he's playing just as well at 38 than at 28. The last 4 years his average minutes are around 28- 29 per game and he's been cut to 33 or less for the last decade. Well Amare can play 24-28 minutes maybe 70 games and possibly so can Smith and Dalembart. Heck even Bargnani has not been healthy. These are not 40 minute players-remember when johan santana went to like 125 pitches to throw that no hitter--he was never the same again. The bottom line is we have older players with injury histories and they need to be on minute restrictions so we can get the most out of them. We have 5-6 bigs--we need to use all of them.

Can't use San Antonio as an example. Pop has the most well coached team in sports. He gives guys days off all the time and that doesn't effect the outcome of games.

Last year we were taking Amare out of games when he had it going and we lost games because of it. We also kept him or if games when we absolutely needed him so he could rest. That's no good.

That's why I'm so harsh. Once training camp starts and this guy has to sit out of practice and preseason, he should not be allowed to play unless he's close to 100%. If he has to be babied let him do it in street clothes

I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

I don't think Amare is a team player. He talks about going to the hall of fame and becoming an all star more than making the playoffs or winning championships.

He's not a good shot blocker. He gets blocked shots on occasion and when he does its a surprise.

So my assessment puts him in the red because he's a piss poor leader, and he's not an intelligent player at all. He will score if he gets the ball but if he can't he is useless. He's completely invisible when he isn't featured. He's actually a liability because he doesn't rebound or defend.

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

I don't think Amare is a team player. He talks about going to the hall of fame and becoming an all star more than making the playoffs or winning championships.

He's not a good shot blocker. He gets blocked shots on occasion and when he does its a surprise.

So my assessment puts him in the red because he's a piss poor leader, and he's not an intelligent player at all. He will score if he gets the ball but if he can't he is useless. He's completely invisible when he isn't featured. He's actually a liability because he doesn't rebound or defend.

Let's see how he plays now. This system has very specific rules for each and every player. It's not a stand and wait or set pick and roll offense. He will have to learn how to 1st check to see if he has a pass to cutter which is different than he's played most of his career. I'm curious to see how they coach him up. Will he respond to it. He did learn things from Hakeem that made him better. Maybe it's possible for him to improve in other areas.

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

I don't think Amare is a team player. He talks about going to the hall of fame and becoming an all star more than making the playoffs or winning championships.

He's not a good shot blocker. He gets blocked shots on occasion and when he does its a surprise.

So my assessment puts him in the red because he's a piss poor leader, and he's not an intelligent player at all. He will score if he gets the ball but if he can't he is useless. He's completely invisible when he isn't featured. He's actually a liability because he doesn't rebound or defend.

Let's see how he plays now. This system has very specific rules for each and every player. It's not a stand and wait or set pick and roll offense. He will have to learn how to 1st check to see if he has a pass to cutter which is different than he's played most of his career. I'm curious to see how they coach him up. Will he respond to it. He did learn things from Hakeem that made him better. Maybe it's possible for him to improve in other areas.

Learning how to read defenses and cutters is my problem. Amare never has had to do that. It's one thing when amare is training. He is the hardest worker when it comes to working out. Working With Hakeem was just a workout. He wants to score. That's why he picked up the post moves so fast. That's what drives him. Trying to make him play smart team ball is asking alot. The dude is Karl Malone minus the rebounding and presence in the paint. He needs a point guard to live. I can't see him operating in shaqs role effectively taking advantage of the triangle. Shaq was a fantastic passer, rebounder and defender...amare is none of the above

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

I don't think Amare is a team player. He talks about going to the hall of fame and becoming an all star more than making the playoffs or winning championships.

He's not a good shot blocker. He gets blocked shots on occasion and when he does its a surprise.

So my assessment puts him in the red because he's a piss poor leader, and he's not an intelligent player at all. He will score if he gets the ball but if he can't he is useless. He's completely invisible when he isn't featured. He's actually a liability because he doesn't rebound or defend.

Let's see how he plays now. This system has very specific rules for each and every player. It's not a stand and wait or set pick and roll offense. He will have to learn how to 1st check to see if he has a pass to cutter which is different than he's played most of his career. I'm curious to see how they coach him up. Will he respond to it. He did learn things from Hakeem that made him better. Maybe it's possible for him to improve in other areas.

Learning how to read defenses and cutters is my problem. Amare never has had to do that. It's one thing when amare is training. He is the hardest worker when it comes to working out. Working With Hakeem was just a workout. He wants to score. That's why he picked up the post moves so fast. That's what drives him. Trying to make him play smart team ball is asking alot. The dude is Karl Malone minus the rebounding and presence in the paint. He needs a point guard to live. I can't see him operating in shaqs role effectively taking advantage of the triangle. Shaq was a fantastic passer, rebounder and defender...amare is none of the above

He has a career avg of 8.3 rebounds, and 1,5 blocks, how is that horrible. Team defense comes from communication from every player on the floor. Your exaggerating, a piss poor rebounder for a pf would be a player avg less than 7, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you regarding amare, i'll just wait until the season starts and keep you in mind, and then we'll see who's right.

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I hated it when woodson would take amare out when he had it going, in fact he did that with shumpert to, shump would hit a couple of shots, get the juices flowing, then bench him..

Yeah and some might make the argument that we have a different coaching situation. There's a reason why Amare is in trade rumors. I think Phil and Fisher will not deal with that. Amare isn't that 20 plus scorer anymore. He doesn't have that type of impact on what we're doing. We're not an established winner that we can baby Amare. He doesn't rebound or play defense. He only scores.

When healthy He's scores, and gets to the line at will, that's impact, and he's playing in a contract yr. Look at the positives and if the positives outweigh the negatives, thats good

Positives
Efficient scorer
very good mid range shot
Team Player
Gets to the free throw line, solid ft %
blocks shots

Negatives
Poor Defender
Avg rebounder

I don't think Amare is a team player. He talks about going to the hall of fame and becoming an all star more than making the playoffs or winning championships.

He's not a good shot blocker. He gets blocked shots on occasion and when he does its a surprise.

So my assessment puts him in the red because he's a piss poor leader, and he's not an intelligent player at all. He will score if he gets the ball but if he can't he is useless. He's completely invisible when he isn't featured. He's actually a liability because he doesn't rebound or defend.

Let's see how he plays now. This system has very specific rules for each and every player. It's not a stand and wait or set pick and roll offense. He will have to learn how to 1st check to see if he has a pass to cutter which is different than he's played most of his career. I'm curious to see how they coach him up. Will he respond to it. He did learn things from Hakeem that made him better. Maybe it's possible for him to improve in other areas.

Learning how to read defenses and cutters is my problem. Amare never has had to do that. It's one thing when amare is training. He is the hardest worker when it comes to working out. Working With Hakeem was just a workout. He wants to score. That's why he picked up the post moves so fast. That's what drives him. Trying to make him play smart team ball is asking alot. The dude is Karl Malone minus the rebounding and presence in the paint. He needs a point guard to live. I can't see him operating in shaqs role effectively taking advantage of the triangle. Shaq was a fantastic passer, rebounder and defender...amare is none of the above

He has a career avg of 8.3 rebounds, and 1,5 blocks, how is that horrible. Team defense comes from communication from every player on the floor. Your exaggerating, a piss poor rebounder for a pf would be a player avg less than 7, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you regarding amare, i'll just wait until the season starts and keep you in mind, and then we'll see who's right.

+1

blocks and rebounds are STATS and NUMBERS not necessarily DEFENSE
it surely doesn't translate to being a good/great defender

Players like Bruce Bowen/Battier and many others were once like down defenders that didn't put great numbers
Another is a young Prince who's numbers doesn't show his impact as a defender, though he did have many good players and a system that fit him as well

People keep talking about what STAT wasn't doing but not realizing that he wasn't really playing most of his career as a post big. We didn't run an offense were the Big was setup with cutters and guys coming around screens to receive passes out of the post. That's pretty much what they're going to be working on every single day in practice. It's impossible to say if STAT "can't" do it or not. We have never seen him play in the Triangle before so there's no real evidence that he can't. No evidence that he can either, but that doesn't prove he can't, only that he hasn't done it before. For all we know he takes to it like a pig in slop. It's going to be one of the really interesting aspects of this year's team. Me personally I don't think STAT will be as bad passing as Tyson was. The few times Tyson would have to pass he didn't look good IMO. In STAT's case he really hasn't had a very long history posting up. What I do know is that if his knees aren't hurting him, he's still a very dominant player. No one has shown they can stop him and if he can get the very basic passes you have in the Triangle then we'll be in good shape.

This video should provide a very good idea of what STAT will have to do in the Triangle. If you pay attention to either Gasol or Bynum. The reason I use this video is cuz they're playing the Celtics who at the time were a great defense. So nothing came easy for the Lakers. This was about as tough of a challenge as they could face. On most nights the Knicks won't face this level of D.