Knicks · Melo on Melo: I make un-smart basketball decisions (page 8)

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Nuggets improved 26 games Melo's first year in Denver.

Pretty sure he wasnt the only addition

You're right they added K-Mart, Miller

Following yr were 17-24

Fired the coach and brought in Karl

Took off from there and the story ends there

They added Melo and Miller. Camby and Nene were already on the 17win team. Karl was hired the next season.

Yes

They added Melo & Miller in 2003-2004

They added K-Mart and Karl in 2004-2005

They added J.R. Smith and Iverson in 2006-2007

They added Billups in 2008-2009

Point is you can't attribute all Denver success

Post 2002-2003 at the feet of Holy Melo

Which was also my earlier point, he didn't

Play his career in Denver with a team of scrubs

He's played with some really good players

I think the point is they didnt add Kmart melo's rookie year when the team won 26 more games. I think that was why you were corrected.

The overall meat and potatoes of this

Discussion is not about his rookie season

You tried to take it there, but it's not

Yeah I had the 1st yr glass half full, it happens

If I could give you a cookie I would

Because you deserve it

You know, when you decide to say that after you were proven wrong, it doesn't look too good.

I refuted the notion to mreinman

Comment of Melo playing with scrubs

While in Denver in particular on the 2008-2009 team

Which turned into Melo was responsible for

Denver's success and he wasn't a failure

Crush finally came in late stating Melo

Was a 26gm difference 1st yr, once again trying to tie all success to Melo

He should have noted Miller was added, he didn't

I did but added K-Mart, was wrong admitted I was

Only off a yr, which falls in line with what

Turned the Nuggets around to a bottom

Level to mid peak success team

I'll gladly accept being wrong and off a yr

The proof is in the thread

I said that they were mostly scrub players and they were. Please be careful not to confuse my comments.

Well let's look at the numbers during the Lakers series

Scrub Players

Kleiza 50%fg[highly efficient right]
and 47%fg(3pt) [I'm sure you enjoy this efg-TS% 2s and 3s right]

Smith 39%fg[scrubbish]
and 30%fg(3pt)[scrubbish]

Chris Anderson 54%fg[highly efficient even if low volume]

Dahntay Jones 38%fg[scrubbish]
and 0%fg(3pt)[okay not good very scrubbish]

Anthony Carter 33%fg[scrubbish but very low volume]
and 33%fg(3pt)[scrubbish ditto]

2 of 5 delivered

These were the same players he played with

Regular season helping win 54gms

And who helped get them to the WCF

Unfortunately Anthony's didn't deliver

Playoffs 40.7%fg 25%fg(3pt)[scrubbish]

Regular season 44%fg 37%fg(3pt)[respectable the 37%fg(3pt) highly efficient right]

Great!

Kobe had Shaq and Melo had Kleiza ... I would say that sounds about right.

Melo has been an underwhelming playoff performer for many years of his career and I have been very vocal about what I don't like about him but stop this crap about trying to make believe that those Denver teams were more than they were.

The only reason why they were a perennial playoff team was because of Melo - Not the KLEIZA'S.

Before Billups came around, his best teammate was Nene. That's not good.

And ... you talk about how he had Marcus Camby, DID YOU EVER TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK UP MR CAMBY'S PLAYOFF NUMBERS AS A NUGGET? Check it out. Heck, maybe that was all Melo's fault because all of his chucking hurt Camby's offensive groove.

Please tell me (outside of Billups) who were the good guards that Melo ran with in the playoffs, and please be ready to backup their numbers (AND PLEASE DON'T SAY ANDRE MILLER AND EXPECT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY).

Melo's best teammate was probably Iverson before Billups

But the war between them was who could run

Lines to the ball first to shoot

Camby followed the leader I guess

Great regular season numbers poor playoff numbers

At least Camby played defense

Kobe wasn't playing with Shaq

When he dismissed Melo on 2 occasions

He played with Pau and Odom

Along with a bunch of scrubs by your standards

Here's another thought Melo wasn't even good enough

To push series like 4-2 or 4-3 even when bounced early

Which is pathetic

Iverson sucked and was a horrible pickup. One of the most inefficient players/volume players of all time

Camby ... "follow the leader"? Good answer

Did you look at Pau's numbers when he played for the lakers in those post seasons? Probably not ... followed the leaders? Are you that impressed with Kobe's playoff numbers? Ever think that Kobe won because of Shaq and Gasol and not vice versa?

Your "scrub" attempts missed the mark by a lot. Don't try to compare the laker teams to Denvers.

You are just throwing stuff out there because of your bias. Try to be balanced and/or honest, or do some more research. Who was Denver's Pau?

Jordan Farmar

Sasha Vuvu

Ronnie Turiaf

Luke Walton

Vladamir Rad

Shannon Brown

Were above scrub status

Give me a break

Those are scrub a dub dubs in a tub

Iverson was 45/35 regular seasons in Denver

Pretty much what Melo had been careerwise while there

Gasol (let me know when you looked up his insane stats)
Kobe
Odom
Bynum
Ariza!!
Fisher??
S. Brown

For the main rotation. Who was Denvers 7?

And ... while Iverson was an awful player, he did do much better in denver (regular season). Who made him better? I thought the devil dragged everyone down? Did you hear that? HIS BEST SEASON EVER WAS WITH MELO!

Oh ... maybe it was Melo who made Iverson have as bad a playoffs that a player can have? Which way do you want it?

mreinman wrote:How about:

Gasol (let me know when you looked up his insane stats)
Kobe
Odom
Bynum
Ariza!!
Fisher??
S. Brown

For the main rotation. Who was Denvers 7?

And ... while Iverson was an awful player, he did do much better in denver (regular season). Who made him better? I thought the devil dragged everyone down? Did you hear that? HIS BEST SEASON EVER WAS WITH MELO!

Oh ... maybe it was Melo who made Iverson have as bad a playoffs that a player can have? Which way do you want it?

No Karl is a better offensive coach

Than Larry Brown, who is a grinder on offense

All defense as a staple, I also credit

The pace of play in West favored Iverson's game a little more

As far as the 2008-2009 series

Fisher played like trash

Shannon Brown played like trash

Bynum was okay

Odom was mediocre

Kobe was what you'd expect

Gasol beasted

Ariza beasted [although he was near baby then]

So this comes down to

Melo-Billups-Nene vs Kobe-Gasol-Ariza

Nene did well considering meanwhile

Melo and Billups failed this series

Here's the thing it was Melo's team

He should set the tone and play at a Superstar level

When the stakes are high, in his case

He usually mails it in

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:How about:

Gasol (let me know when you looked up his insane stats)
Kobe
Odom
Bynum
Ariza!!
Fisher??
S. Brown

For the main rotation. Who was Denvers 7?

And ... while Iverson was an awful player, he did do much better in denver (regular season). Who made him better? I thought the devil dragged everyone down? Did you hear that? HIS BEST SEASON EVER WAS WITH MELO!

Oh ... maybe it was Melo who made Iverson have as bad a playoffs that a player can have? Which way do you want it?

No Karl is a better offensive coach

Than Larry Brown, who is a grinder on offense

All defense as a staple, I also credit

The pace of play in West favored Iverson's game a little more

As far as the 2008-2009 series

Fisher played like trash

Shannon Brown played like trash

Bynum was okay

Odom was mediocre

Kobe was what you'd expect

Gasol beasted

Ariza beasted [although he was near baby then]

So this comes down to

Melo-Billups-Nene vs Kobe-Gasol-Ariza

Nene did well considering meanwhile

Melo and Billups failed this series

Here's the thing it was Melo's team

He should set the tone and play at a Superstar level

When the stakes are high, in his case

He usually mails it in

We were talking about the non Billups teams. Billups changed the team giving Melo a viable teamate but Melo / Billups was no Pau / Kobe, we both know that.

Melo and Billups played well that playoffs. And, the lost game 1 by 2 points. If they will game 1, who knows ... maybe they could have have a HUGE upset. Pau/Kobe/Ariza shot lights out ridiculous which did not help.

You can't complain about that Denver not beating the Lakers ... they had a great run and played great at times against the lakers.

You still seem to be taking things out of context. We all know what Billups did for that team, and of course we all know what Shaq and Pau did for the Laker rings ... a lot more than Billups.

As far as Larry brown making Iverson a bad/dumb player ... thats ridiculous. Iverson just took horrible shots and never had a chance to play with a game changer like Melo.

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:How about:

Gasol (let me know when you looked up his insane stats)
Kobe
Odom
Bynum
Ariza!!
Fisher??
S. Brown

For the main rotation. Who was Denvers 7?

And ... while Iverson was an awful player, he did do much better in denver (regular season). Who made him better? I thought the devil dragged everyone down? Did you hear that? HIS BEST SEASON EVER WAS WITH MELO!

Oh ... maybe it was Melo who made Iverson have as bad a playoffs that a player can have? Which way do you want it?

No Karl is a better offensive coach

Than Larry Brown, who is a grinder on offense

All defense as a staple, I also credit

The pace of play in West favored Iverson's game a little more

As far as the 2008-2009 series

Fisher played like trash

Shannon Brown played like trash

Bynum was okay

Odom was mediocre

Kobe was what you'd expect

Gasol beasted

Ariza beasted [although he was near baby then]

So this comes down to

Melo-Billups-Nene vs Kobe-Gasol-Ariza

Nene did well considering meanwhile

Melo and Billups failed this series

Here's the thing it was Melo's team

He should set the tone and play at a Superstar level

When the stakes are high, in his case

He usually mails it in

We were talking about the non Billups teams. Billups changed the team giving Melo a viable teamate but Melo / Billups was no Pau / Kobe, we both know that.

Melo and Billups played well that playoffs. And, the lost game 1 by 2 points. If they will game 1, who knows ... maybe they could have have a HUGE upset. Pau/Kobe/Ariza shot lights out ridiculous which did not help.

You can't complain about that Denver not beating the Lakers ... they had a great run and played great at times against the lakers.

You still seem to be taking things out of context. We all know what Billups did for that team, and of course we all know what Shaq and Pau did for the Laker rings ... a lot more than Billups.

As far as Larry brown making Iverson a bad/dumb player ... thats ridiculous. Iverson just took horrible shots and never had a chance to play with a game changer like Melo.

I didn't say Larry made Iverson a bad dumb player

Iverson at least went to the Finals

I'm saying Larry's style of offense probably

Didn't assist in Iverson being a more efficient player

Larry did make Iverson play some D though

If Iverson was coached by Karl

He may have not made it to the Finals

Even if Karl coached him in the East

But I believe his offensive numbers would have

Looked at little better

We're talking what it takes to advance primarily here

I was meshing both Denver Melo performances against Lakers

Melo not being a difference maker in either yr

2007-2008 nor 2008-2009

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

Agree overall

I think Melo's number will be about

What they've always been

I think what will offset everything

His volume won't be there to help[Yes volume has helped Melo in ISO]

While at the same time he'll be in

A system which should allow him to make better choices offensively

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

I think you can reason overall this to be true

OTOH say if you're a Paul George type talent

You don't have to have a high TS

In order to advance in the playoffs

There have been others like Paul Pierce average TS

Who was at least an above average defender

But extremely high IQ on offense

Even Tim Duncan had some so-so TS numbers

I say first and foremost try and be a two-way player

If by chance you are a rare offensive talent

Be a truly Elite high IQ offensive talent

Who also makes everyone around them better

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

You don't find it even a little interesting that Melo's last 2 years in Denver his TS was 56.4 both years in the playoffs??? Also, his first year with Iverson, his TS was 58.2 ... that was 3 out of last 4 years in Denver. Don't you find that interesting?? Then he comes he with complete trash and he stinks again in the playoffs? Can't blame him for his first 3 years on Denver because he was young ... young guys get a pass (sort of).

Should make you take a second look and look at the pattern. Hard to play 1 on 5 on be efficient. His playoff teams here was complete trash and he ended joining the trash and playing like trash.

The guy is certainly flawed and is not a "2 way" player but as far as efficiency, there are interesting patterns to observe.

I think that he could be a Paul Pierce but he certainly has not been Paul Pierce yet.

I am gonna give him a fresh chance this year and see what they can do to get him above 58 TS. Don't know why but I have a gut feeling that will actually happen. His 3 point shooting off penetration / ball movement is fabulous. I hope they exploit that.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

You don't find it even a little interesting that Melo's last 2 years in Denver his TS was 56.4 both years in the playoffs??? Also, his first year with Iverson, his TS was 58.2 ... that was 3 out of last 4 years in Denver.

So Iverson was the best teammate

Sans Billups based on TS?

So Iverson made him better too

But you tried to say Melo made him better[if we count regular season as the real season]

BTW Iverson highest TS was in 2004-2005

He wasn't playing with Melo then

He also posted higher playoff TS while in Philly

I caught you serving soft volley into the net

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Sorry for the delayed responses. I be at work 12hrs a day and check the threads off my phone and reply when I got time.

I specifically choose those 2 series because he put up "amazing" & "season numbers" those 2 series yet Denver lost. One of them to a team that you said they have no excuse losing to. So something has to give. If he had enough talent around him to win and he put up amazing & season numbers why did his team lose?

You seem to only judge playoff performances on fg% which is what I don't get. Here is a perfect example why. Vs Boston his first yr in NY which you labled his performance as "trash". He put up 26pts-10.3rebs had an ast% of 27.5% = 4.8ast per game, 1.3stls, defensive rating of 107, 8.5fts per game at 85%, 34.6 3pt % and a per of 22.5.

None of those numbers are trash and none of those number are eliminated just because of a poor fg% which if he only hit 2 shots more per game all of a sudden make it good.

Throughout Anthony's playoff career he has held a per of 20 or more 6 out of the 10 yrs. Which is far from trash. With 3 of those yrs being his first 3 when he was 19-21yrs old. Posting up his playoff "failures" at the age of 19-21 seem bad taste to me but whatever. His per for the most part has been pretty much in line with his season stats and has had his highest career per at 24.8 and 24.4 his last 2 playoff series with the Knicks.

So when you say his numbers don't say his numbers since that's not what you are evaluating. Strictly say his FG% because that is the only thing you are evaluating.

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

I think you can reason overall this to be true

OTOH say if you're a Paul George type talent

You don't have to have a high TS

In order to advance in the playoffs

There have been others like Paul Pierce average TS

Who was at least an above average defender

But extremely high IQ on offense

Even Tim Duncan had some so-so TS numbers

I say first and foremost try and be a two-way player

If by chance you are a rare offensive talent

Be a truly Elite high IQ offensive talent

Who also makes everyone around them better

lets remember that TS% is relevant to wing players who have the 3-point shot as part of their games. including duncan in the TS% conversation or even the eFG% conversation is misleading because he doesn't shoot the three. a quick look at his FG% vs. his eFG% will reveal how this is true. then add in the fact that duncan has been hurt by poor FT% and you see the one minor flaw in his game, certainly as it pertains to TS%

of course you are right that winners are going to be net positive-sum players, and two-way players are the best bet to get that status although the nashes of the world can get you pretty far as well.

pierce? positive-sum all the way. he WAS the greatest player in the world in 2008. he played great defense and he has always been a great playmaker... and his footwork has hd few peers truth be told. i am a huge fan of his.

because paul george is a legit two-way player i cut him some slack on the scoring efficiency front. too good a defender and if you look at his usage to assist ratio it is comparable to a backcourt player, not even a "wing." this part of his game-- creating offensive cohesion-- is overlooked by the uninformed. not by me.

our problem has been very simple: we acquired a one-way player with supreme finishing capability but never gave him the great pick and roll point guard to excel with, nor an elite perimeter or rim defender to cover his flaw. ridnour was amare's first choice. then, instead of building by need, ie a point guard upgrade, we compounded an already-existing issue by acquiring the same kind of flawed player who occupies the same part of the floor as the player we already maxed as a free agent. moreover, the mister "i forced my way to new york" did so by decimating the team of future trade assets and draft picks. this is not even including jeremy lin.

it has really been both a farce and a nightmare, ie. a fartmare.

FARTMARE

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

You don't find it even a little interesting that Melo's last 2 years in Denver his TS was 56.4 both years in the playoffs??? Also, his first year with Iverson, his TS was 58.2 ... that was 3 out of last 4 years in Denver.

So Iverson was the best teammate

Sans Billups based on TS?

So Iverson made him better too

But you tried to say Melo made him better[if we count regular season as the real season]

BTW Iverson highest TS was in 2004-2005

He wasn't playing with Melo then

He also posted higher playoff TS while in Philly

I caught you serving soft volley into the net

Look again mr lob - SMASH and tell me what year was Iversons best TS (please). Iverson did play well that season (though he was a trash player - please reread my Iverson comments), so ... Melo at least had a guard who could create that year and Melo played well because of it. Unfortunately, Iverson was TRASH in the playoffs - that did not help. However, Carmelo has a TS of 58 and Iverson 44!

CB don't do no 44's.

I never lob the ball over the net unless my opponent is always at the baseline and he is fat and lazy.

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

mreinman wrote:making it to the finals has nothing to do with not playing dumb. He should thank Larry Brown and all the defenders (not his defense).

If that Denver team was in the east they would have certainly gone to the finals.

2008-2009? Who was the difference in them advancing so far? How does that team do without Melo? Playoffs?

Maybe we can agree that Melo for the most part did not have an elite cast ... and that he alone could not carry them and that he had some really bad chucking playoff series.

Be fair PLEASE

Yes Ivy should be thanking Larry over and over

Because without him probably doesn't make it to the HOF

The East/West sidebar is neither here nor there

As far as advancing, it's all semantics

You'd have an argument if

Melo didn't put up

36/25 and 40/25

If Melo put up his regular season #s

Or better in those 2 series and lost okay I'd see your point

So then what about the yr before when he put up great numbers TS of 58%. Or when he faced the Jazz when he put up great numbers 30pts TS of 56%

No one said he's played every series

And every Postseason bad, For what is his bread and butter

He played like crap against Minnesota

He played mediocre against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Clippers

He played awesome against the Spurs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played very good against Hornets

He played very good against Mavs

He played like crap against the Lakers

He played to his season numbers against Utah[golf clap]

He played like trash against Boston

He played like trash against the Heat

He played like trash against Boston

He played mediocre against Pacers

He has played the overall majority

Of them well below his season's average[which happens to be barely above average]

You can henpeck all you want

In his case it's primarily about his 1 dimensional style of play

More than anything else, ISO ball with no D won't get you far

I can find playoff series here and there

Where Jordan played like trash

Amongst many other greats, if I look hard enough

But I think we know the deal

Are we comparing him to Jordan? C'mon.

Have you looked at how many mediocre -> bad playoff series Kobe had? Easy to hide when Shaq's and Gasol can pick up the slack.

No I wasn't comparing him to Jordan

Glad my point got across to you

Kobe is overrated, agreed

Doesn't make Melo any better

And Melo is/was not better than Kobe

What's your point?

I judge Melo on his own merits

If we happen to be a playoff team this year

Hopefully he doesn't put up the same

Lame arse numbers, he's posted the majority of his career

If he does, hopefully this team somehow

Figures out how to win in spite of him

Ok ... that is fair - as long as you are not overrating Kobe. Iverson was far more overrated though.

Melo does overrate himself as we see in his comments.

He has been far more efficient as a Knick though his post season numbers have not been.

I do think that the supporting cast does affect everyone's efficiency and it looks like you don't (though he is still to blame for a lot of his checking). Iverson had a far more efficient season not because of Karl but because he was surrounded by better offensive players.

Fair or not, Melo will still keep getting killed unless he produces a couple of solid playoff seasons as a knick. He also has to learn how to trust his teammates (even if they stink) and not take it all on his "shoulders". A little too much narcissism (like Kobe).

I actually believe that under Phish he will improve his efficiency a lot. They won't stand for his poor shot choice especially the contested long 2's (though Fisher chucked too much for my liking)

we like to say that great players elevate their games in the playoffs, but melo has rarely if ever done so. in fact, if we look at TS% alone, almost every truly great player takes a hit in the playoffs the deeper he goes. therefore, it behooves said player to START OUT with a superior TS% that has been honed in the regular season by taking a much different approach. we have heard ample evidence of this emphasis from lbj, wade, and bosh. i have always hated the mediocrity of this aspect of melo's game. 55-56% is his career average, and it has always gone down by at least 3 percentage points, rendering him a net negative in this metric. you need elite levels of TS% as it relates to usage to ensure greater playoff success.

melo HAS TO reach a minimum of 59-60%TS in the regular season in order to have a positive impact in the playoffs where he would likely sink to 56-57%TS. the numbers will back up my assertion.

You don't find it even a little interesting that Melo's last 2 years in Denver his TS was 56.4 both years in the playoffs??? Also, his first year with Iverson, his TS was 58.2 ... that was 3 out of last 4 years in Denver.

So Iverson was the best teammate

Sans Billups based on TS?

So Iverson made him better too

But you tried to say Melo made him better[if we count regular season as the real season]

BTW Iverson highest TS was in 2004-2005

He wasn't playing with Melo then

He also posted higher playoff TS while in Philly

I caught you serving soft volley into the net

Look again mr lob - SMASH and tell me what year was Iversons best TS (please). Iverson did play well that season (though he was a trash player - please reread my Iverson comments), so ... Melo at least had a guard who could create that year and Melo played well because of it. Unfortunately, Iverson was TRASH in the playoffs - that did not help. However, Carmelo has a TS of 58 and Iverson 44!

CB don't do no 44's.

I never lob the ball over the net unless my opponent is always at the baseline and he is fat and lazy.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

It's all there for you to dissect

If TS% is your fancy Iverson made Melo better

Not the other way around

If Regular season is your fancy

You could argue both cases as a wash