Knicks · Quandary (page 1)

Trying to put some zen on this:

Amare is playing well, helping us win games.
Bargs is set to return soon. His skill set is condusive the triagle. If we don't need him to carry a heavy load we can
keep him healthier and thus his career can take on a better trajectory than his last 2 year decline.

If kept healthy, both could very well help us in achieving a playoff seed.

And a lower draft pick. Then their salaries come off the books.
My take is their success increases their price if we want to retain them. They are both on "Contract years" so are motivated highly (not tht Amare is like that) and both have a lot to prove.
Amare is fighting "Father Time" and Barg's a soft reputation.

The problem is their success makes for a nice season but going forward creates a problem. My take is Phil would do well to retool using free agency AND a high draft pick. I can't see both returning next year.
To make a substantial run in the next few years.

To me their success is not enough to make us contenders but could inhibit longer term progress. Either should be traded for youtier assets or picks to teams looking for contending sooner than later. they can help a good team NOW.

Sorry, I hate the notion of tanking but the fact remains we need a good pick this year AND cap space. Staying in the profitability sweetspot of mediocrity won't take us far until we can reload.
A healthy Bargnani and Amare is counter productive to the longer term goal.

Love the wins and its a long season. A core of Melo-Jose-Dalebert-Amare-Bargs just makes no long term sense.

Lose the battle to win the war.

to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

So we are wasting time teaching the triangle to the one player who will still be here?

I just can't make sense of not picking up Larkin's deal

Long season. Even if the team overachieves, it has more older and fragile vets than other teams. The health factor alone is a tough obstacle with the crazy back-to-backs on the schedule.

Plus, facing the better teams once they start rolling is just going to make it that much harder.

Good start so far, but take it one game by game. The prospects for this year will be clearer in six weeks.

fishmike wrote:to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

We can resign Larkin up to the $1.67mm. I doubt he exceeds that. If so, Im not sure Phil wants to commit to a 5foot 10 player who is not a sharpshooter.
Im not sure what his value was but if someone values him not having that option picked up won't make him less attractive. Larkin I doubt is or will be in a position to write his own check like Lin was.
Phil knows his value. Of course if the kid blows up we messed up. I see his minutes gone when Jose returns.

Marc Gasol has been great with the Grizz. Seems each year they over achieve? He is the big guy. Not looking at stats just wins. Z-bo has a lot to do with it and they have good chemistry.
But, the kid is a good defender. If he aspires for culture like his brother he might want to make the move.

Like you, I don't see a clear plan and of course its a big chess game with lots of contingent moves after another.

Shump and JR are not early adapters to the System.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

We can resign Larkin up to the $1.67mm. I doubt he exceeds that. If so, Im not sure Phil wants to commit to a 5foot 10 player who is not a sharpshooter.
Im not sure what his value was but if someone values him not having that option picked up won't make him less attractive. Larkin I doubt is or will be in a position to write his own check like Lin was.
Phil knows his value. Of course if the kid blows up we messed up. I see his minutes gone when Jose returns.

Marc Gasol has been great with the Grizz. Seems each year they over achieve? He is the big guy. Not looking at stats just wins. Z-bo has a lot to do with it and they have good chemistry.
But, the kid is a good defender. If he aspires for culture like his brother he might want to make the move.

Like you, I don't see a clear plan and of course its a big chess game with lots of contingent moves after another.

Shump and JR are not early adapters to the System.

Larkin's value has yet to be determined, but look at PG salaries across the league. $1.6mm? For a PG? Thats not even bottom of the barrel. Thats where is Mike Bibby and Jason Williams territory. A young PG in a rookie contract that is playing well has great value. He's cap fodder now. Thats a big fail. Small piece but big fail. I would say if $1.7 ruins Phil's plan it wasnt too sturdy.

Gasol... nice player, but part of a bigger picture. There are very good players on that team, especially on defense and the glass. Gasol is just a piece, just like ZBo.

fishmike wrote:to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

We can resign Larkin up to the $1.67mm. I doubt he exceeds that. If so, Im not sure Phil wants to commit to a 5foot 10 player who is not a sharpshooter.
Im not sure what his value was but if someone values him not having that option picked up won't make him less attractive. Larkin I doubt is or will be in a position to write his own check like Lin was.
Phil knows his value. Of course if the kid blows up we messed up. I see his minutes gone when Jose returns.

Marc Gasol has been great with the Grizz. Seems each year they over achieve? He is the big guy. Not looking at stats just wins. Z-bo has a lot to do with it and they have good chemistry.
The kid is a good defender. If he aspires for culture like his brother he might want to make the move.

Like you, I don't see a clear plan and of course its a big chess game with lots of contingent moves after another.
I've lowered the bar on this season expectation and Phil has to balance keeping the team interesting while transition to the future.

My sense is Dalebert/Cole is not the future but a bridge. My hope is to sign Gasol and draft the best athlete in the top 5. The triangle requires players not positions.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

We can resign Larkin up to the $1.67mm. I doubt he exceeds that. If so, Im not sure Phil wants to commit to a 5foot 10 player who is not a sharpshooter.
Im not sure what his value was but if someone values him not having that option picked up won't make him less attractive. Larkin I doubt is or will be in a position to write his own check like Lin was.
Phil knows his value. Of course if the kid blows up we messed up. I see his minutes gone when Jose returns.

Marc Gasol has been great with the Grizz. Seems each year they over achieve? He is the big guy. Not looking at stats just wins. Z-bo has a lot to do with it and they have good chemistry.
The kid is a good defender. If he aspires for culture like his brother he might want to make the move.

Like you, I don't see a clear plan and of course its a big chess game with lots of contingent moves after another.
I've lowered the bar on this season expectation and Phil has to balance keeping the team interesting while transition to the future.

My sense is Dalebert/Cole is not the future but a bridge. My hope is to sign Gasol and draft the best athlete in the top 5. The triangle requires players not positions.

lol are you reposting your comments by design? Am I worth nothing more than canned responses? You cut me Shrek. You cut me deep.

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:to me is simple: Manage your assets.

So far its a mixed bag. Did a nice job to jettison Felton's crap deal and package that with Capt. Overrated and get some assets back.

Not picking up Larkin's options strikes me as utterly retarded. Young guys locked into less than $2mm a year deals with talent are what you want. Now he's totally devalued both as a prospect and a trade piece. He's become nothing more than a rental backup PG which is a shame.

Here's the question... if your not going to keep a guy like Larkin who are you trading anyone for?

I have no clue what the vision. I loathe the Marc Gasol chatter.

I have no problem with selling high when it comes to Amare, Bargs or Calderon or any of these guys. I just dont know what the plan is. If youth were part of it wouldnt Larkin be here?

This who thing strikes me as a gut the roster and starphuck for two years. I guess its just see how it plays out.

Lucky for me Im OK with Melo as it seems he's the only guy who will be around next year.

We can resign Larkin up to the $1.67mm. I doubt he exceeds that. If so, Im not sure Phil wants to commit to a 5foot 10 player who is not a sharpshooter.
Im not sure what his value was but if someone values him not having that option picked up won't make him less attractive. Larkin I doubt is or will be in a position to write his own check like Lin was.
Phil knows his value. Of course if the kid blows up we messed up. I see his minutes gone when Jose returns.

Marc Gasol has been great with the Grizz. Seems each year they over achieve? He is the big guy. Not looking at stats just wins. Z-bo has a lot to do with it and they have good chemistry.
But, the kid is a good defender. If he aspires for culture like his brother he might want to make the move.

Like you, I don't see a clear plan and of course its a big chess game with lots of contingent moves after another.

Shump and JR are not early adapters to the System.

Larkin's value has yet to be determined, but look at PG salaries across the league. $1.6mm? For a PG? Thats not even bottom of the barrel. Thats where is Mike Bibby and Jason Williams territory. A young PG in a rookie contract that is playing well has great value. He's cap fodder now. Thats a big fail. Small piece but big fail. I would say if $1.7 ruins Phil's plan it wasnt too sturdy.

Gasol... nice player, but part of a bigger picture. There are very good players on that team, especially on defense and the glass. Gasol is just a piece, just like ZBo.

Bump this quality reply post to the front of Uncle Nalod Centrist's relentless subterfugic(?) attempts at selling tanking to the rest of us. Okay, selling it to me.

the problem is you cant have a well coached team, Melo AND tank. Those things dont go well together. If they are well coached and playing team ball you can stick a bunch of castoffs etc around Melo and your good for 45 wins. He's just that good. The year to tank was last year.

There are too many players with skills in walk years. Amare, Larkin, Shump, potentially JR, Dalembert.. the whole damn team. These guys are playing hard, want to win and want to show they have value and of course get paid.

I feel like we have this same discussion every year for the last decade.

"We stink now; if our players get better, can we afford them?"

Play good basketball, create a winning culture, the rest will fall in place.

Nalod wrote:

To me their success is not enough to make us contenders but could inhibit longer term progress. Either should be traded for youtier assets or picks to teams looking for contending sooner than later. they can help a good team NOW.

Sorry, I hate the notion of tanking but the fact remains we need a good pick this year AND cap space. Staying in the profitability sweetspot of mediocrity won't take us far until we can reload.
A healthy Bargnani and Amare is counter productive to the longer term goal.

Love the wins and its a long season. A core of Melo-Jose-Dalebert-Amare-Bargs just makes no long term sense.

Lose the battle to win the war.

Were are trying to contend in the next yr or 2...My friend, melo is 31yrs old, smack dead in his prime, it's veterans like Amare and Barg, that will help us sooner rather than later.

Do you see wiggens and parker, they are not labron, melo, or wade, they are at least 5 yrs away from being a consistent playoff contender. Do you see Kyrie, in 3 yrs in hasn't even been to the playoffs.

Getting a high draft pick make us a lottery team for the next 5 seasons

yeah, i see nothing but positives...we have shown that other than the first or second pick, the first and second rounds are a wash.

We can never tank as well as philly is, and seemingly the lakers.

In the end, enthusiasm for culture change brings quality players.

i think the gasol talk is just that, talk...in the end, if the team is able to deliver some a quality results (let's say the 6th seed) then i trust Phil to upgrade where necessary and bring us to the next level.

Maybe it is gasol, match melo with gasol and I see that as being a bigger deal than kobe and gasol (of course noting they had an up and coming bynum on the roster).

Enough to beat the cavs in a 7 game series...and then the mavs or spurs? Who knows, but in the end, we will need another PF stopper that can hit the open jumper and a strong supporting cast to really do some damage.

Who is that PF that solves our problems AFTER we get Gasol?

I'd say it's a middle tier player in the 8$ million per range.

i did not proof read

I stated a view. SOme of you have countered with very good points. Im not looking to "sell it", its a discussion of views.
Phil not asking me what to do.

Quandary:

"a state of perplexity or uncertainty over what to do in a difficult situation."

What is the situation? How to build a contender.
I agree that losing on purpose does not accomplish anything. Im talking about if things go south do we just let it go "organically"?

freeskier wrote:I feel like we have this same discussion every year for the last decade.

"We stink now; if our players get better, can we afford them?"

Play good basketball, create a winning culture, the rest will fall in place.

+1. Whether they stay or go doesn't matter. We are building a team around the Triangle. We can find pieces to fit that system BOTH from the draft and from free agency. Tanking will not guarantee us anything. Besides, as many have pointed out, we don't have a tank-able team, due to having Melo and a bunch of guys in contract years.

It's more important to get everyone adjusted to a culture of winning and defense. Phck tanking!

Nalod wrote:

I stated a view. SOme of you have countered with very good points. Im not looking to "sell it", its a discussion of views.
Phil not asking me what to do.

Quandary:

"a state of perplexity or uncertainty over what to do in a difficult situation."

What is the situation? How to build a contender.
I agree that losing on purpose does not accomplish anything. Im talking about if things go south do we just let it go "organically"?

Yes.

babyKnicks wrote:

Nalod wrote:

I stated a view. SOme of you have countered with very good points. Im not looking to "sell it", its a discussion of views.
Phil not asking me what to do.

Quandary:

"a state of perplexity or uncertainty over what to do in a difficult situation."

What is the situation? How to build a contender.
I agree that losing on purpose does not accomplish anything. Im talking about if things go south do we just let it go "organically"?

Yes.

at that point you have no choice.

fishmike wrote:

babyKnicks wrote:

Nalod wrote:

I stated a view. SOme of you have countered with very good points. Im not looking to "sell it", its a discussion of views.
Phil not asking me what to do.

Quandary:

"a state of perplexity or uncertainty over what to do in a difficult situation."

What is the situation? How to build a contender.
I agree that losing on purpose does not accomplish anything. Im talking about if things go south do we just let it go "organically"?

Yes.

at that point you have no choice.

You do have a choice. Team last year could have went "Lowrey" and futher mortgaged the future. There is always a quick fix.
Bargnani was a weak attempt. CAA mafia went there.
Lots of things a team can do to keep from falling into the abyss but it comes at a cost.
The Abyss orevention tactic might not get our out of the first round.

I suppose the point I was making is if the team is hitting on all cylinders to its potential but not really making headway and there are assets to be shed for some future value then I would imagine the team will look at it. Amare for a stashed Euro with potential? A high second round pick? Maybe Amare wants out as well? Latch on with a contender for a few months.

fishmike wrote:the problem is you cant have a well coached team, Melo AND tank. Those things dont go well together. If they are well coached and playing team ball you can stick a bunch of castoffs etc around Melo and your good for 45 wins. He's just that good. The year to tank was last year.

There are too many players with skills in walk years. Amare, Larkin, Shump, potentially JR, Dalembert.. the whole damn team. These guys are playing hard, want to win and want to show they have value and of course get paid.

This.

The Knicks are playing well. You can't really tamper too much with what's going on.

We aren't going to trade for 3rd tier guys with long contacts. Our assets are our expiring contacts. Bargs is currently not playing and amare is expendible at this point. We can trade or nah.

Either way we aren't in bad shape no matter what we end up doing. If we do nothing we get to stay plugging more guys into our triangle machine. If we trade for someone, it will be for a player that fits that mold Phil talks about.

No use crying about the draft. We are not going to tank with what we have going for us. You don't tank with all the money invested in fisher Phil and Melo.... we're in a 5 year plan. The plan is to become championship ready sooner rather than later.

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lose the battle to win the war.

As I said before, that the best plan to rebuild and retool ( again, I accept that it's a crapshoot, but the current NBA system offers no real better long term alternatives) would be to

1) Never sign on Zen Master and Fish in the first place ( though Fish has done a nice job in his short tenure) The amount of dollars moving forces these guys to try to "win now" ( Otherwise what are you backing up the cash truck for?) Instead hire a relative no name young assistant GM from another team with a background in scouting, analytics and has a strong relationship with the other young up and coming front office talent across the league.

2) Trade Melo for as much as you can get

3) Never take on Calderon, trade Chandler, for as much as you can get.

4) Heavily mine the UDFA pool and young high upside players clogged on rosters with established rotations

5) Tank mercilessly

6) Try to jump into every trade you can, and try to stockpile draft assets, young players with upside on rookie deals and don't engage in anymore short term fix moves.

7) Infuse the roster with solid citizen low cost veterans who can enforce the locker room and play the right way.

8) Eat the growing pains and let your young talent play and work out their kinks and burn out their learning curve now

Every other alternative creates a three year treadmill of slow death and the eventual rebuild from scratch in 2017 or 2018.

Knicks need to PICK A PATH. ANY PATH. But one that has a direction. Right now they are in limbo. They want to win and they want to reload at the same time. I don't think it's possible under these conditions. The Rockets did it, miraculously, but they had a young saavy GM who is known as maybe the best versed front office head in the salary cap/CBA in the entire league. The conditions to acquire Harden and Howard were also unique and extreme, specific to their former teams and the league landscape at the time. It's not something that I think can be duplicated.

I compared it to a rotting tooth. Eventually you are going to have to deal with it. The Knicks are just letting it rot some more, for three more years. The complete retool/overhaul has to happen, it's just a question of when. I don't see the upside in delaying the inevitable ( while the league conditions for the Knicks tanking will still work in their favor, by 2018 there could be massive CBA and draft lottery reform in place)

There is no pressure to win now. Dolan is extremely fond of Phil Jackson like he was of Isiah Thomas. He was gushing on how hiring Phil to run the Knicks was like getting Einstein to do his homework or something like that. Other then Phil making the Knicks a laughing stock and holding a 100+mil salary while missing the playoff year after. Dolan most likely will let Phil do his thing.

The notion that you either need to completely rebuild or be a championship team is flawed as well. What we need to do is keep our draft picks and draft well, sign quality free agents, make quality trades, maintain flexibility to continue to progress.

Use the 20mil next off season to sign a couple of quality players to flexible deals that give you room to do so again when the salary cap rises again. Like Dallas has done with Ellis and Chandler Parsons over the last 2 yrs. Draft a good player. If good valued trades are available that give us better balance and improve the team while maintaining flexibility then pursue them.