Knicks · I think I'm over the fisher experiment (page 2)

gunsnewing wrote:I think Fisher is doing a great job. I can't think of a cosch that would've led this disgraceful team to a record better than 5-22

I think a coach could squeeze out a few more wins by just running a system that allows the players not to have to think or do anything they don't want to, mainly because occasionally they'd maybe have a good collective 3pt shooting night, but I don't see how that would actually benefit us going forward.

I'm fine with the job Fishers doing- he makes mistakes, but thats the only way you learn. Ridiculous to be judging him a disaster this early and with him having to coach with this terrible team that can't think, can't execute, can't rebound, can't shoot and can't defend.

Remember how bad Tyson was?

In the big scheme Tyson was never going to play for Phil. He requires big men to have an offensive game.

Forget what Phil is being paid. It does not count against the cap and nothing comes out of our pockets.

these guys signed 5 year deals because they are blowing it up. Why keep melo then?
Good question. All I have is my take or what I feel, so to me its selling tickets and having a marquee name. Melo's game, like Paul Pierce can be integrated.

Last year the team sucked and Woodson tried to hide most deficiencies. This year its been determined we are playing the triangle and since our bone heads have little trade value, we are letting the natural course of things take place. Save cap space, draft a stud, and weed out the weak players.

Plan B can be give Melo his money and if he wants to request a trade, we have value in return. If we let him walk we are about as bad but depleted as well. We don't have a 1st next year.

Melo is not trusting the system because the system does not have the shooters to compliment it.

Last nite the wife and I watched a documentary on Patagonia in Chile. We also talked about traveling there this spring. My daughter is to study there. Im not investing my time in this group. Not this year.

Im watching highlights and keeping up with the team, but not investing hours in watching the games then getting pissed off.

Im rooting for them to lose every freaking game and make every effort to get a top 3 pick!
Phil is doing what nobody has tried to do since Eddie Donovan did years ago: Build.

Before you can build a culture you must dig a strong foundation. Foundations are below and lower you go the stronger the building that sits on top.
The fact that a majority of fans don't see this nearly confirms the validity of this strategy. One can count on the masses to look at the short term and react to media whose job is obtain viewership by getting readers worked up about an emotion.

Any trades should be done to weed out the unbelievers and only those with a skill set viable to the triangle should be bought in return. If none available, any picks or euros stashed with complimentary skills. A leader with vision will not pander to his audience and compromise the future plan.

I don't care what he says, all I care is what is done. And that won't be apparent to any of us this season.

smackeddog wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:This guy is way over his head, between the funky subbing and the overall emotion he shows ( which is none) with the group we have you got to get into it! as well as his cluelessness on defensive schemes.. This guy needs to be a assistant for the next five years before he even deserves a shot at head coach... Man Phil must be kicking himself for losing out on Kerr.. It's time to call jvg ! A coach that holds players accountable !

Why in the hell was he given a five year contract is beyond my intelligence

Its called long term thinking. You commit to guys and develop them and give them time to improve and get better- an alien concept to many knick fans.

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think Fisher is doing a great job. I can't think of a cosch that would've led this disgraceful team to a record better than 5-22

I think a coach could squeeze out a few more wins by just running a system that allows the players not to have to think or do anything they don't want to, mainly because occasionally they'd maybe have a good collective 3pt shooting night, but I don't see how that would actually benefit us going forward.

I'm fine with the job Fishers doing- he makes mistakes, but thats the only way you learn. Ridiculous to be judging him a disaster this early and with him having to coach with this terrible team that can't think, can't execute, can't rebound, can't shoot and can't defend.

perfectly said. agree with this 100%

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:This guy is way over his head, between the funky subbing and the overall emotion he shows ( which is none) with the group we have you got to get into it! as well as his cluelessness on defensive schemes.. This guy needs to be a assistant for the next five years before he even deserves a shot at head coach... Man Phil must be kicking himself for losing out on Kerr.. It's time to call jvg ! A coach that holds players accountable !

Why in the hell was he given a five year contract is beyond my intelligence

Its called long term thinking. You commit to guys and develop them and give them time to improve and get better- an alien concept to many knick fans.

Does the same apply to Dolan? By year 30 or so of his ownership he'll be good at it?

Dolan learned to step back and shut the fuck up- that was him finally learning from his mistakes. We were so close to having Dolan as our deficit GM with Mills as is deputy until Phil came along.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:This guy is way over his head, between the funky subbing and the overall emotion he shows ( which is none) with the group we have you got to get into it! as well as his cluelessness on defensive schemes.. This guy needs to be a assistant for the next five years before he even deserves a shot at head coach... Man Phil must be kicking himself for losing out on Kerr.. It's time to call jvg ! A coach that holds players accountable !

Why in the hell was he given a five year contract is beyond my intelligence

Its called long term thinking. You commit to guys and develop them and give them time to improve and get better- an alien concept to many knick fans.

Does the same apply to Dolan? By year 30 or so of his ownership he'll be good at it?

Because perhaps even Dolan has come to realize he needs help and had messed up enough!!!!!!
If it took 10 years, 20 years, as long as it happens!!!!!

smackeddog wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I think Fisher is doing a great job. I can't think of a cosch that would've led this disgraceful team to a record better than 5-22

I think a coach could squeeze out a few more wins by just running a system that allows the players not to have to think or do anything they don't want to, mainly because occasionally they'd maybe have a good collective 3pt shooting night, but I don't see how that would actually benefit us going forward.

I'm fine with the job Fishers doing- he makes mistakes, but thats the only way you learn. Ridiculous to be judging him a disaster this early and with him having to coach with this terrible team that can't think, can't execute, can't rebound, can't shoot and can't defend.

Finishing 8th worst record vs. 1-2-3rd can change yoru franchise for years!!!!!

If your not contending, your either treading water or rebuilding.

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Why? My take is PHil laid out a plan and Dolan bought into it while in negotiation.
Only the media calls it a disaster.
With valuations thru the roof what better time to reboot the brand?
Since Nets no threat to steal the city, what better time to do this?
If Nets won a chip when Knicks are irrelevant market share would be lost.

Of all the things Im confident in is Phil's ability to recognize a good coach to hire.

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Why? My take is PHil laid out a plan and Dolan bought into it while in negotiation.
Only the media calls it a disaster.
With valuations thru the roof what better time to reboot the brand?
Since Nets no threat to steal the city, what better time to do this?
If Nets won a chip when Knicks are irrelevant market share would be lost.

Of all the things Im confident in is Phil's ability to recognize a good coach to hire.

why is that?

what reboot?

sidsanders wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Why? My take is PHil laid out a plan and Dolan bought into it while in negotiation.
Only the media calls it a disaster.
With valuations thru the roof what better time to reboot the brand?
Since Nets no threat to steal the city, what better time to do this?
If Nets won a chip when Knicks are irrelevant market share would be lost.

Of all the things Im confident in is Phil's ability to recognize a good coach to hire.

why is that?

what reboot?

Why? Dude knows winning. Dude knows fisher. Dude is a deep thinking, not a reactionary. He is not afraid to fail.

Reboot is rebuilding. No reason you can't have Melo and do it.
In business you take a process and make it fluid with accepting the flow will change. we might be made an offer we can't refuse and Melo is OK to a trade.
We might opportunistic to add pieces to work with Melo. If you accept players like Lowry you limit your opportinities. He is a fine player but if your looking to employ a system you either add pieces you think will fit, or keep your opportunities available.

I would hate to see phil compromise his goals and accept mediocrity. That would be a failure.

kerr had thoughts of this for a while. as did mark jackson and a bunch of other first timers. fisher was basically, "f ck it, i'll do it...the $25 mil is guaranteed, right?"

smackeddog wrote:Give him at least a season to learn the ropes. Or would you rather we fire him, get a better short term replacement and maybe win 30 games and get a crap pick?

learn the ropes, you mean like a basic rotation,tweaking your playbook to fit your roster. Dude, yesterday on 3 straight possessions (all failed)he tried to post up JASON Smith as if he was amare. Cmon maaaaaaan, wtf are you doing

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

If his plan was to have 12 overpaid players, turn a .450 team into a .190 team, and play Melo 35 to 40 mpg for 80 games while laboring multiple injuries, then I'd rather he let someone else do the planning.

Being a .190 team is better than being a .450 team this season because we have our pick. Compare our record with the team at the same point last season- it's not much different. You're in catastrophizing mode so you're trying to put a worse slant on everything. You know fine well last years team inflated their wins with that streak at the tail end of last season- why are you pretending otherwise?

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

If his plan was to have 12 overpaid players, turn a .450 team into a .190 team, and play Melo 35 to 40 mpg for 80 games while laboring multiple injuries, then I'd rather he let someone else do the planning.

Being a .190 team is better than being a .450 team this season because we have our pick. Compare our record with the team at the same point last season- it's not much different. You're in catastrophizing mode so you're trying to put a worse slant on everything. You know fine well last years team inflated their wins with that streak at the tail end of last season- why are you pretending otherwise?

If we're just trying for a high lottery pick, we should be resting Melo much more. Either we're simply awful or Dolan and Phil can't even tank right. Neither would surprise me.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

If his plan was to have 12 overpaid players, turn a .450 team into a .190 team, and play Melo 35 to 40 mpg for 80 games while laboring multiple injuries, then I'd rather he let someone else do the planning.

Being a .190 team is better than being a .450 team this season because we have our pick. Compare our record with the team at the same point last season- it's not much different. You're in catastrophizing mode so you're trying to put a worse slant on everything. You know fine well last years team inflated their wins with that streak at the tail end of last season- why are you pretending otherwise?

If we're just trying for a high lottery pick, we should be resting Melo much more. Either we're simply awful or Dolan and Phil can't even tank right. Neither would surprise me.

Melo needs to play for branding and box office reasons

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

If his plan was to have 12 overpaid players, turn a .450 team into a .190 team, and play Melo 35 to 40 mpg for 80 games while laboring multiple injuries, then I'd rather he let someone else do the planning.

Being a .190 team is better than being a .450 team this season because we have our pick. Compare our record with the team at the same point last season- it's not much different. You're in catastrophizing mode so you're trying to put a worse slant on everything. You know fine well last years team inflated their wins with that streak at the tail end of last season- why are you pretending otherwise?

If we're just trying for a high lottery pick, we should be resting Melo much more. Either we're simply awful or Dolan and Phil can't even tank right. Neither would surprise me.

Melo needs to play for branding and box office reasons

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If all this happened and it was entirely Phil's decision making, that's even worse

Only if Phil had a 1-Year plan. If his plan was to win this year at all costs....then it is an utter failure so far.

If his plan was to secure Melo and see/evaluate what else he has in Year 1 - then continue to build based on that ......then it is too soon to pass judgement

If his plan was to Tank this year to acquire a higher pick - then his plan seems like a success so far

If his plan was to have 12 overpaid players, turn a .450 team into a .190 team, and play Melo 35 to 40 mpg for 80 games while laboring multiple injuries, then I'd rather he let someone else do the planning.

Being a .190 team is better than being a .450 team this season because we have our pick. Compare our record with the team at the same point last season- it's not much different. You're in catastrophizing mode so you're trying to put a worse slant on everything. You know fine well last years team inflated their wins with that streak at the tail end of last season- why are you pretending otherwise?

If we're just trying for a high lottery pick, we should be resting Melo much more. Either we're simply awful or Dolan and Phil can't even tank right. Neither would surprise me.

Melo needs to play for branding and box office reasons

You'd think for box office reasons they'd want to protect their $124 mil investment, right?
I don't see what harm it would do to play him more like 28 mpg.

could he get off his 20 shots in 28 minutes?