Knicks · Everyone hating on Phil... man up lol (page 2)

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:People can guess what Shump might have been traded for but they can't prove that a team was willing to give a 1st rd pick for him. Just like they can't prove Tyson could've brought back more. These kinds of statements are passed off as fact when they are not. The FACT is that Phil now has at least $30 mil in cap space this summer and he still has a chance to create more space.

We need to move on from his moves before the season and how the team played this year. It didn't work, so he flushed it!!! People were hating on Phil for not using analytics and they were wrong. The Knicks org has key guys who are into advanced metrics. People here have assumed that Phil had gotten himself stuck and again they were wrong.

Player             2015/16 
Carmelo Anthony    $22,875,000 
Jose Calderon      $7,402,812   
Pablo Prigioni     $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr    $1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   $845,059
      TOTALS:      $34,161,963
Team Options
Quincy Acy         $1,181,348
Travis Wear        $1,045,059

OKC offered one of their 1st round picks last year in a trade for Shump. That's a fact.

EnySpree wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Well he brought in role players. Technically the role players are doing what he brought then here to do. It's our core players that keep stinking up the place.

Shump and JR are probably going to play great in Cleveland.....but guess what? They were cancers here. See ya!

Now we have this absolutely clueless coach, and every player all of a sudden looks like pure trash. I looked at the stats of each player on this roster prior to this season, and all of them are playing at career lows

Thats why I always point to the coach and the system. Mike woodson got the best out of Jr and melo, and destroyed every other players value in the process. fisher hasn't gotten 1 single player to play up to there talents, let alone beyond that

Fisher has the worst record in knicks history, and these losses are now becoming blow outs leading to the worst record in the league..If you want to tell me that coaching has nothing to do with that, then it's clealy obvious you know very little about basketball.

Phil can dump this entire roster, and I will put my house, car, wife, bank accounts up, that fisher would lead an all star line up to a .500 record at best. He (IMO) is the worst coach I have ever witness on any level.

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Well he brought in role players. Technically the role players are doing what he brought then here to do. It's our core players that keep stinking up the place.

Shump and JR are probably going to play great in Cleveland.....but guess what? They were cancers here. See ya!

Now we have this absolutely clueless coach, and every player all of a sudden looks like pure trash. I looked at the stats of each player on this roster prior to this season, and all of them are playing at career lows

Thats why I always point to the coach and the system. Mike woodson got the best out of Jr and melo, and destroyed every other players value in the process. fisher hasn't gotten 1 single player to play up to there talents, let alone beyond that

Fisher has the worst record in knicks history, and these losses are now becoming blow outs leading to the worst record in the league..If you want to tell me that coaching has nothing to do with that, then it's clealy obvious you know very little about basketball.

Phil can dump this entire roster, and I will put my house, car, wife, bank accounts up, that fisher would lead an all star line up to a .500 record at best. He (IMO) is the worst coach I have ever witness on any level.

Oh.. and the problem isnt with coaching... but that will prove itself or not next year not this one.

nixluva wrote:People can guess what Shump might have been traded for but they can't prove that a team was willing to give a 1st rd pick for him. Just like they can't prove Tyson could've brought back more. These kinds of statements are passed off as fact when they are not. The FACT is that Phil now has at least $30 mil in cap space this summer and he still has a chance to create more space.

We need to move on from his moves before the season and how the team played this year. It didn't work, so he flushed it!!! People were hating on Phil for not using analytics and they were wrong. The Knicks org has key guys who are into advanced metrics. People here have assumed that Phil had gotten himself stuck and again they were wrong.

Player             2015/16 
Carmelo Anthony    $22,875,000 
Jose Calderon      $7,402,812   
Pablo Prigioni     $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr    $1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   $845,059
      TOTALS:      $34,161,963
Team Options
Quincy Acy         $1,181,348
Travis Wear        $1,045,059

Need to add a cap hold for a high draft pick in the committed salaries Nixluva.

dk7th wrote:

franco12 wrote:the problem I have with the trade is we basically paid out in a way to dump JR, and the truth is, he was a mistake of our own creation- he should never have been signed to the deal he was given.

I know it wasn't Phil's mistake, and you have to give him credit for cleaning up.

I think some of the hate directed at Phil is more about hate for past bad management- much related to Dolan.

Are we going to think in 2-3 years that Melo's contract was just a version of JR? Paid for past performance, but light on future value?

that's exactly what people will think... along with those who think that now. in fact, the idea of rewarding someone for what they did in the past-- and what did melo do again?-- is wrong-headed.

I have a hunch there were some arm locked together

In their football pads, jerseys, cleats

After J.R. signed his deal joining in victory song

Swaying back and forth over the signing

While Nixluva was maestroing the band

My hate though isn't directed at the past

It has more do with the fact the Triangle Furniture Dust

Diminished assets to the degree he had to accept a crap deal

But hey we're 5-31 with cap space free agents are more attracted than

Ever to join this franchise and team up with A SHUTDOWN CLOWNER

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Naaahhh he didn't gutter but left a horrible split

Without picking up the spare

I know for a fact had he moved Tyson with Smith in yesterday's trade

And got back say 2 2019 2nd round picks you would be clowning the trade

Huh?

Real simple Bonn had Phil moved Tyson with J.R. so he could

Dump J.R.'s deal, you would not be endorsing the trade as a good one

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:People can guess what Shump might have been traded for but they can't prove that a team was willing to give a 1st rd pick for him. Just like they can't prove Tyson could've brought back more. These kinds of statements are passed off as fact when they are not. The FACT is that Phil now has at least $30 mil in cap space this summer and he still has a chance to create more space.

We need to move on from his moves before the season and how the team played this year. It didn't work, so he flushed it!!! People were hating on Phil for not using analytics and they were wrong. The Knicks org has key guys who are into advanced metrics. People here have assumed that Phil had gotten himself stuck and again they were wrong.

Player             2015/16 
Carmelo Anthony    $22,875,000 
Jose Calderon      $7,402,812   
Pablo Prigioni     $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr    $1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   $845,059
      TOTALS:      $34,161,963
Team Options
Quincy Acy         $1,181,348
Travis Wear        $1,045,059

OKC offered one of their 1st round picks last year in a trade for Shump. That's a fact.

A couple yrs before it was Phx

With Jared Dudley and 2 2nd rounders

The Jared Dudley that landed Bledsoe

The Bledsoe that plays with Dragic

Who puts up the same numbers as Dragic if not better

The same Bledsoe who signed for 4yrs $70mil

The same Bledsoe who Dragic sees as no better than himself

The same Dragic who says New York will be attractive

The same Dragic that now sees we have $30mil in cap space

The same Dragic that will ask us to give him the same deal as Bledsoe

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Well he brought in role players. Technically the role players are doing what he brought then here to do. It's our core players that keep stinking up the place.

Shump and JR are probably going to play great in Cleveland.....but guess what? They were cancers here. See ya!

Now we have this absolutely clueless coach, and every player all of a sudden looks like pure trash. I looked at the stats of each player on this roster prior to this season, and all of them are playing at career lows

Thats why I always point to the coach and the system. Mike woodson got the best out of Jr and melo, and destroyed every other players value in the process. fisher hasn't gotten 1 single player to play up to there talents, let alone beyond that

Fisher has the worst record in knicks history, and these losses are now becoming blow outs leading to the worst record in the league..If you want to tell me that coaching has nothing to do with that, then it's clealy obvious you know very little about basketball.

Phil can dump this entire roster, and I will put my house, car, wife, bank accounts up, that fisher would lead an all star line up to a .500 record at best. He (IMO) is the worst coach I have ever witness on any level.

Larkin, Acy, Wear are all having career years so there you go.

Oh.. and the problem isnt with coaching... but that will prove itself or not next year not this one.

Is this a joke, those guys barely played at all, and they have been given roles, they are clearly not ready for, by far, just like the coach.

If you own a mechanic shop and you hired a guy to do simple oil changes, in a weeks time, would you then change his role and have him rebuilding transmissions?

markvmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:People can guess what Shump might have been traded for but they can't prove that a team was willing to give a 1st rd pick for him. Just like they can't prove Tyson could've brought back more. These kinds of statements are passed off as fact when they are not. The FACT is that Phil now has at least $30 mil in cap space this summer and he still has a chance to create more space.

We need to move on from his moves before the season and how the team played this year. It didn't work, so he flushed it!!! People were hating on Phil for not using analytics and they were wrong. The Knicks org has key guys who are into advanced metrics. People here have assumed that Phil had gotten himself stuck and again they were wrong.

Player             2015/16 
Carmelo Anthony    $22,875,000 
Jose Calderon      $7,402,812 
Pablo Prigioni     $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr    $1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   $845,059
      TOTALS:      $34,161,963
Top 3 1st Rd Draft Pick  $3,818,900-$4,753,000
Team Options
Quincy Acy         $1,181,348
Travis Wear        $1,045,059

Need to add a cap hold for a high draft pick in the committed salaries Nixluva.

Thanks. I've added a range of cap hold from #3 to #1. It's still a fluid situation since we don't know what else Phil is going to do.

JR Smith, if he picked up his option next year would have been paid: $6.4MM

Jose Calderon is being paid $7.4MM

So what Phil has essentially done is given a long term deal to a coach with no experience and pay him like an elite coach. In a league with no quality big men he traded one that was going to play extremely well because he is in a contract year, when his value was low: no assets, multiple years at 7.4MM for someone that doesn't make a difference

Shumpert would have made 3.9MM next year. I understand that he is always injured, but at that price in this league he is still a valuable rotation player. We had a chance years ago to get Bledsoe for the kid, we had a chance to send him with a first rounder for lowry and teague, but didn't pull the trigger.

I am a little disappointed on how this is going. Melo has few trade options, the Bulls and Mavs are off the table. He doesn't want to go to the rockets which leaves who the Lakers?

If the Knicks get nothing this offseason, which likely they will we are going to just keep this rebuilding facade alive?

MS wrote:I don't know why everyone is praising Phil here.

JR Smith, if he picked up his option next year would have been paid: $6.4MM

Jose Calderon is being paid $7.4MM

So what Phil has essentially done is given a long term deal to a coach with no experience and pay him like an elite coach. In a league with no quality big men he traded one that was going to play extremely well because he is in a contract year, when his value was low: no assets, multiple years at 7.4MM for someone that doesn't make a difference

Shumpert would have made 3.9MM next year. I understand that he is always injured, but at that price in this league he is still a valuable rotation player. We had a chance years ago to get Bledsoe for the kid, we had a chance to send him with a first rounder for lowry and teague, but didn't pull the trigger.

I am a little disappointed on how this is going. Melo has few trade options, the Bulls and Mavs are off the table. He doesn't want to go to the rockets which leaves who the Lakers?

If the Knicks get nothing this offseason, which likely they will we are going to just keep this rebuilding facade alive?

What's interesting about Shumpert

Some thought once he recovered from injury he could finish the yr strong

The option Phil would have had heading into the summer would be a S&T

Should Shump want the additional yr and/or higher %s on raises

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Naaahhh he didn't gutter but left a horrible split

Without picking up the spare

I know for a fact had he moved Tyson with Smith in yesterday's trade

And got back say 2 2019 2nd round picks you would be clowning the trade

Huh?

Real simple Bonn had Phil moved Tyson with J.R. so he could

Dump J.R.'s deal, you would not be endorsing the trade as a good one

You're saying if we still had Tyson and if we included him in this deal and if we still only got the same players and one more 2nd round pick in return? I'd hate the trade then but it's a strange thing to bring up now.

nixluva wrote:

markvmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:People can guess what Shump might have been traded for but they can't prove that a team was willing to give a 1st rd pick for him. Just like they can't prove Tyson could've brought back more. These kinds of statements are passed off as fact when they are not. The FACT is that Phil now has at least $30 mil in cap space this summer and he still has a chance to create more space.

We need to move on from his moves before the season and how the team played this year. It didn't work, so he flushed it!!! People were hating on Phil for not using analytics and they were wrong. The Knicks org has key guys who are into advanced metrics. People here have assumed that Phil had gotten himself stuck and again they were wrong.

Player             2015/16 
Carmelo Anthony    $22,875,000 
Jose Calderon      $7,402,812 
Pablo Prigioni     $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr    $1,304,520
Cleanthony Early   $845,059
      TOTALS:      $34,161,963
Top 3 1st Rd Draft Pick  $3,818,900-$4,753,000
Team Options
Quincy Acy         $1,181,348
Travis Wear        $1,045,059

Need to add a cap hold for a high draft pick in the committed salaries Nixluva.

Thanks. I've added a range of cap hold from #3 to #1. It's still a fluid situation since we don't know what else Phil is going to do.

I think the knicks have a team option on Prigioni, so he shouldn't count towards the cap.

MS wrote:I don't know why everyone is praising Phil here.

JR Smith, if he picked up his option next year would have been paid: $6.4MM

Jose Calderon is being paid $7.4MM

So what Phil has essentially done is given a long term deal to a coach with no experience and pay him like an elite coach. In a league with no quality big men he traded one that was going to play extremely well because he is in a contract year, when his value was low: no assets, multiple years at 7.4MM for someone that doesn't make a difference

Shumpert would have made 3.9MM next year. I understand that he is always injured, but at that price in this league he is still a valuable rotation player. We had a chance years ago to get Bledsoe for the kid, we had a chance to send him with a first rounder for lowry and teague, but didn't pull the trigger.

I am a little disappointed on how this is going. Melo has few trade options, the Bulls and Mavs are off the table. He doesn't want to go to the rockets which leaves who the Lakers?

If the Knicks get nothing this offseason, which likely they will we are going to just keep this rebuilding facade alive?

The reason why Phil traded Tyson away and sign Fish is to lose as much games as possible this year to get the top pick.
This was the only opportunity for us in foreseeable future and Phil doing all he can to make it happened.
looks great so far.
Tyson was absolutely unnecessary waste of everything on rebuilding team.
So will be an experienced coach.
Melo in necessary evil to get casual fans to by tickets at time when it is nothing to look at.
We have this customary role manned by Stat last time Walsh attempted the mini-rebuild. But he was too good so this backfires with stupid Dolans expectations to quickly jump through the hoops.
Hopefully we suck well enough to be the worst in the league this year and at least below average next to do rebuild the right way.

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Naaahhh he didn't gutter but left a horrible split

Without picking up the spare

I know for a fact had he moved Tyson with Smith in yesterday's trade

And got back say 2 2019 2nd round picks you would be clowning the trade

Huh?

Real simple Bonn had Phil moved Tyson with J.R. so he could

Dump J.R.'s deal, you would not be endorsing the trade as a good one

You're saying if we still had Tyson and if we included him in this deal and if we still only got the same players and one more 2nd round pick in return? I'd hate the trade then but it's a strange thing to bring up now.

Okay so principally speaking although you're higher on Tyson then Shump

I'll agree with you here

But let's keep all things in perspective of what's being valued from us[by other teams]

Just like you reasoned Tyson was coveted by another team who once had decent value

Our stance should always be to capitalize on value

Well we didn't and ended up making a crappy trade with Dallas

Although in the Dallas trade we got back more immediate value in picks[Early & Thanasis]

Created some Exceptions and curbed some salary for this season

The only difference in the trades in terms of badness

We took on Calderon's yucky contract Dallas deal

In the Cleveland deal we gave Shump away for $6mil of cap space

And a crappy pick coming after Phil's deal expires

The two trades are direct contradictions for the purpose of 2015

We also found out from Wojo Cleve's motivation to do deal

They coveted Shumpert and OKC coveted Waiters, therefore we should have asked for more out of the deal

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's a difference between hating on Phil and hating what he did last off-season. He bowled gutter after gutter last off-season but yesterday's trade was at least a spare.

Naaahhh he didn't gutter but left a horrible split

Without picking up the spare

I know for a fact had he moved Tyson with Smith in yesterday's trade

And got back say 2 2019 2nd round picks you would be clowning the trade

Huh?

Real simple Bonn had Phil moved Tyson with J.R. so he could

Dump J.R.'s deal, you would not be endorsing the trade as a good one

You're saying if we still had Tyson and if we included him in this deal and if we still only got the same players and one more 2nd round pick in return? I'd hate the trade then but it's a strange thing to bring up now.

Okay so principally speaking although you're higher on Tyson then Shump

I'll agree with you here

But let's keep all things in perspective of what's being valued from us[by other teams]

Just like you reasoned Tyson was coveted by another team who once had decent value

Our stance should always be to capitalize on value

Well we didn't and ended up making a crappy trade with Dallas

Although in the Dallas trade we got back more immediate value in picks[Early & Thanasis]

Created some Exceptions and curbed some salary for this season

The only difference in the trades in terms of badness

We took on Calderon's yucky contract Dallas deal

In the Cleveland deal we gave Shump away for $6mil of cap space

And a crappy pick coming after Phil's deal expires

The two trades are direct contradictions for the purpose of 2015

We also found out from Wojo Cleve's motivation to do deal

They coveted Shumpert and OKC coveted Waiters, therefore we should have asked for more out of the deal

If you are living in perfect fantasy world you are making the best deals for yourself.
In reality you must compromise to get you main objective.
There are 2 or more sides to the deal and nobody want to be used.
Our main objectives are to dump as much as possible to clear the space for new system/culture and make team sucky enough to get top pick. Main objectives were perfectly met in both trades.