Knicks · would you include Hardaway in a trade to dump Calderon's salary? (page 2)

Prefer to keep Hardaway at this point, but I don't know how Phil and Fisher look at his development as a player this year, and his long term potential.

I think that right now he is the only true SG we have.

Galloway would have to look amazingly good by the trade deadline before you would use Hardaway to dump Calderon, IMO.

Teams know what we are trying to do at this point. Phil needs to find a team that is more desperate for a Calderon type PG than we are desperate to unload him. Might be hard to find at this point, but who knows what might happen injury-wise on one team or another.

If we do give up Hardaway with Calderon I would expect no less than a #1 coming back to the Knicks.

I am also one who thinks that Calderon would be a better player than he has been with us so far with a better supporting cast, be that on the Knicks or another team.

Likely we won't spend all of our money this offseason, so I guess you weigh up whether you really need to include a cheap young guy to clear up space you may not need. I'm not a fan of Calderon, but I do know we will need some smart vets with good attitudes (Camby, KT and JKidd worked wonders). It's a tough decision. Likely his salary hurts u in the summer of 2016 when we may aim to sign a max player (I don't think we'll get one this year).

Its like asking the question--what we'll help me more in our situation Jose Calderon and Tim Hardaway JR or 9mm in cap space. Well I can see so far that Jose C and Tim H havent helped me too much. Timmy has potential but hes been awful on defense in almost every game he has played--he does not pass the ball and while he can be explosive he can be just as glaringly bad. Lets say we get a protected pick bac.---So last week anyone could tell me wed be getting two picks and losing 15mm in cap sapce--who would not sign up for that? This team needs a complete rebuild. If you feel we are going to contend for something in the next two years--you're a little off. Playoffs--always possible but Id rather have the 9mm for both short and long term.

BRIGGS wrote:Its like asking the question--what we'll help me more in our situation Jose Calderon and Tim Hardaway JR or 9mm in cap space. Well I can see so far that Jose C and Tim H havent helped me too much. Timmy has potential but hes been awful on defense in almost every game he has played--he does not pass the ball and while he can be explosive he can be just as glaringly bad. Lets say we get a protected pick bac.---So last week anyone could tell me wed be getting two picks and losing 15mm in cap sapce--who would not sign up for that? This team needs a complete rebuild. If you feel we are going to contend for something in the next two years--you're a little off. Playoffs--always possible but Id rather have the 9mm for both short and long term.

Yeah, they're both playing at the level of league min guys. They're probably combined worth about $3 mil. So it makes more sense to have the $9 mil in cap room.

Seems like everbody is missing the point. Jose C was strategically traded here for two reasons. Fill a PG hole and provide leverage to obtain memphis center...Gasol. They are extremely close and talk almost every day from what ive read. I see now that phil makes moves like chess. Most of our gms in the past were playing checkers.

What if you were Gasol and your brothers coach that won multiple championships and your best friend plays for the knicks. I dont think phil trades jose C unless it was confirmed by gasol that he wasnt coming. Phil has enough connections to get the latest on gasol....between Jose and his brother. THj is also extremely young and has a great nba jumper...with an nba pedagree.

I don't know what I'd do, but I think the best case for keeping those guys is that they now have some familiarity playing the triangle (not much success, but still). You add one or two guys from Westchester to augment the draft pick and whoever we get in FA, and you at least have a good % of the team who don't have to learn the triangle anew. Trade them, and we spend another season with everyone learning the system.

And, as has been stated a number of times on this site, we could always save some cap by stretching calderon.

franco12 wrote:can we bring in better players in free agency for their cap space?

I'm not sure we can - we have questions about the kind of players we'll be able to add after this disaster of a season.

Are we going to be settling for 2nd tier players already? I worry we will.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd do a a deal to blindly obtain cap space. We already have a decent a mount of it. It would be one thing if there was a particular player we were targeting with that space.

I have no problem jettisoning Hardaway but he might be the only guy we have that could possibly get something of value back. I'd much rather see if some GM would give us a 1st rounder for him. A 2016 first would be nice since we lost ours for The Baskeball Player Who Shall Not Be Named.

If we actually build a decent backcourt in Free agency this summer than Calderon could actually be a decent reserve (albeit an aging and expensive reserve).

WaltLongmire wrote:
I am also one who thinks that Calderon would be a better player than he has been with us so far with a better supporting cast, be that on the Knicks or another team.

I do. I think he could be pretty good. Here is a line up next year I could see him playing really good basketball in (obviously this scenario require a lot of luck in FA, but lets play along)

C DeAndre Jordan (max)
PF Melo
SF Stanley Johnson (draft)
SG Wesley Mathews ($10mm)
PG Calderon

I could see Calderon playing a nice role there... and you have THjr off the bench. But I guess it comes down to this... what would you rather have? Calderon and THjr or Reggie Jackson for $9mm?

OR

Brandon Knight? I mean your going to have to overpay in FA... that how it works, you outbid other teams, but there are some very good and much younger players than Calderon out there at that price range

we should be getting rid of all players that perform merely on one side of the court. hardaway will always be a liability on defense which is why i predict a journeyman's career for him. calderon is a negative-sum player because he is a liability on defense and his orchestrating abilities are squandered in the triangle.

Hell no. Keep THJ til at least next season.

The Clips or Miami might be willing to do a trade for Calderon. Clips need a heady veteran to back up Paul; a guy that can run the team, as well as, making the open shots. Phil can perhaps parle one of those teams to trade a couple of picks for Calderon.

We'd have to consider the opportunity cost involved in either scenario. But for the record, I'm highly skeptical of our ability to find players that are worthy of our cap space, so I prefer not to trade a potential asset in Hardaway. We did that once before with Jordan Hill (as well as picks) to get rid of Jared Jefferies and all we had was Raymond Felton to show for it in 2010. Besides, if we shock the world and are able to land a LaMarcus Aldridge and Marc Gasol, what would prevent us from dumping THJr and Calderon on another team? If the cap spikes like expected, half the league will have cap space and we can make the deal then if necessary. I'm sure more than a few teams will be left with their dicks in their hand, which would preserve the opportunity to offload them.

Though I'll admit that the Calderon's contract is disconcerting. I highly doubt that he will be able to honor it, which concerns me because of how much he makes. If the cap spikes, this will be less of an issue but we still could spend $17.5 million better than we are doing with him. If we absolutely need to move Calderon (and consequently THJr), I'd do it with the Hornets for Lance Stephenson, their 2nd rounder in 2015 and/or a right to a 2015 SWAP (in case the Bobcats get the better record). Yeah, we'd have to deal with the crazy that is Lance Stephenson but he's only under contract for one more season and may still revert back to the guy that was an all-star candidate and a league leader in triple doubles. Worse comes to worse, he doesn't work out and we use the stretch provision on him and take a cap hit of $3 million per year for 3 years. I'd roll the dice on that, especially since MJ might be inclined to help Phil out.

TripleThreat wrote:At some point, even if it's just a matter of principle, you have to STOP jettisoning your young players, esp the ones you are drafting and esp the ones you are trying to develop.

While THJr might not be what fans hope or the franchise hopes he could be or should be, hes young cheap cost controlled labor. A team that wins needs a balance. Old legs but wise heads to control the locker room, but you also need some young blood for that energy and fire that only young guys can give you.

You win by flipping an asset for a GREATER asset. And keep doing it, even if it's incremental. It's how the Warriors got better and did so without hitting in the draft lottery for a top 2 pick. It's how Houston got better.

What you don't do is create sinkholes and keep paying to fix a problem you never solve or had solved but screwed it up.

Lin cost NOTHING. He was an undrafted free agent cut loose by other teams. He would cost some cap space to hold onto, but he didn't cost the Knicks to trade a player to get him or a draft pick to take him. Most of his developmental "cost" was carried by other teams ( they ate his first tough year trying to learn the league)

You win by picking up assets like Lin, or if you have to move on from them, then find a way to flip them for something else.

Instead the Knicks let him go for nothing, then TRADED ASSETS to get an inferior player, who to dump, cost MORE ASSETS to move, which ended up with Calderon, who now people are suggesting MORE ASSETS to get rid of.

Think about that, considering using three waves of ASSETS to replace a guy you got for FREE. Who is still better than anyone you tried to replace him with in the duration. This is how losing teams stay losing teams.

Then Houston picks up a guy off the street, Patrick Beverley, who is starting at PG for them.

Other teams are filling holes that cost the Knicks THREE WAVES of assets to still have as a sinkhole and problem.

At some point, you just have to stop. You just have to break the negative cycle and just eat it. Not trading THJr is also a principle issue about how you want to build your team.

The Knicks franchise is like a drug addict. At some point, to get better, you have to take the hit and go through withdrawal. For the Knicks, that means being willing to bear the cost of letting young players learn and make mistakes and develop in time like other franchises let them do.

At some point, you have to accept you are low on ammo, the guys around you are dead, you can't find cover, you are hurt, you are about to be overrun, but you have to make your stand here and now. It's not ideal but it's never going to be totally ideal. Instead, on principle, you decide to dig in and fight your fight here and now. Trading THJr only enables a negative losing culture that wants to delay the inevitable withdrawal needed to get better.

9 mm in caps space vs Tim Hardaway JR and Jose Calderon--thats NOT a non asset--thats a very good player who has proven a lot in the NBA. What do I have in Calderon and Timmy? I have an aging PG who is clearly cycling down and an inconsistent SG who has not tried to play D and wont pass the ball. I don't see how this vote isnt 16-0 this team scks and so does the players. I can accept giving up Tim H rather quickly for that 9mm. In fact its a no brainer.

From his agent--he states many teams want Calderon.

"Jose is the ultimate professional and he's never going to demand to be traded," Bartelstein told HoopsHype. "He's disappointed by the way things are going, but he's going to try to make it right. We're aware the Knicks are in a state of transition and a trade is a realistic possibility because many teams are interested in Jose, but if a move happens it's never going to be because we're requesting it." - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/r/5BQ1/agent-jose-calderon-will-not-push-for-trade#sthash.FKkts1BL.dpuf

BRIGGS wrote:From his agent--he states many teams want Calderon.

"Jose is the ultimate professional and he's never going to demand to be traded," Bartelstein told HoopsHype. "He's disappointed by the way things are going, but he's going to try to make it right. We're aware the Knicks are in a state of transition and a trade is a realistic possibility because many teams are interested in Jose, but if a move happens it's never going to be because we're requesting it." - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors/r/5BQ1/agent-jose-calderon-will-not-push-for-trade#sthash.FKkts1BL.dpuf

Spoken like a real agent. While it maybe true it would take perfect circumstances.

The Clipps could use him over Farmer but they have Reddick and are looking for wing defense. Now, the Blazers could use him over Blake. However after they renounce the rights to some of their players in the off season they could get a player or two I think. If they revoke Claver, Freeland, Robinson, Wright, and a few others they may have a little space so they probably would not want Calderon. If they plan on keeping Robinson or Freeland then it might be smart to work a trade to add a player since they wouldn't be able to in FA.

TripleThreat wrote:
Briggs, name one team that would practically take Calderon and his contract, could actually use him, and would only ask for THJr in return?

Calderon's agent is posturing, there really can't be much of a market for him.

His agent may be posturing, but who would have thought that Denver could get a couple of #1s for Mosgov?

You never know who is going to get injured or whether a playoff bound team might think a guy like Calderon is worth the assets it takes to get him.

Teams see we are cleaning house and expect they can take advantage of us like they've done in the past. Time to stay calm and let them come to us and deal with us on our terms.

calderon just hit a three. we should trade him now.

yeah ...

I would definitely trade Calderon to get rid of Timmy

mreinman wrote:yeah ...

I would definitely trade Calderon to get rid of Timmy

I like what you did there

TripleThreat wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:His agent may be posturing, but who would have thought that Denver could get a couple of #1s for Mosgov?

Even as the market shifted for the value of first rounders in the past season and a half, Asik and Gortat both moved for first rounders.

Not outside of market trends to pay a first for a pivot who give rim protection. The extra first Denver got was on circumstance ( how many teams move a first overall for a top 25 player like Love and risk losing him in the offseason?)

Calderon and Mozgov are't even in the same ballpark in terms of market value, not even close, no offense.

You are talking about value, sans extenuating circumstance.

Some will say that Cleveland overpaid for Mosgov, but he was worth it to them because of the state of their lineup and perhaps concerns about their future. The Cavs would not have made this trade at the start of the season or in the offseason.