No, I think Calderone still has trade value in the league by himself
I am under the illusion perhaps that Jose has a higher value. I don't trust us hackers to set it, nor the tone of media that seems to inject some opinion.
Ultimately time will tell.
I also would like to believe His play has dropped because of who he is running with. Melo is but just one player. If you have Ellis and Dirk on the floor with you, I think things are easier for Jose. Lets face it, Dallas was a good team last season and he had a good role in that.
At this point the team is a hot mess with injury contributing large to the many lineup changes.
Regarding Hardaway, while He is no cornerstone player, Im just not convinced he is that awful. I mean we say "Play the yoots and let them develop" but doesn't that include letting them play thru problems and mistakes? If we are asking some young players to do things they are not used to (Triangle) we have to know it will mess with their head and effect confidence.
Rebuilding has to include some form of patience and that is what will be interesting to see how our staff handles that. Or not!
I've been wondering this too. I would. It sucks that it came to this. We already gave up Tyson to get him and now we'll have to give up assets to get rid of him! But it basically boils down to whether you think we should be able to get better production out of $9 mil in FA signings this off-season (the amount that TH and Calderon take up). I think we should be able to.
I dont have an opinion, or rather I am undecided. I think Jose has a skill set, but that skill set requires some pieces around him to impact the game as Nalod mentioned in Dallas. Im pretty down on THjr as most know. I see him as bench scorer and an 8th or 9th guy. You will get some 25 minute games from him where he drops 15+ and hits some big shots and you will have some 10 minute games where he goes 1-7 and you yank him until next time. Ultimately if doesnt expand his game he wont make it past his rookie conract in the league
I still dont get why Phil wanted him to begin with. I mean he as always been more of a shooter but he is also 33 with multiple years left. Dallas really wanted Tyson back and he was coming off a bad season. I would ave been happ just getting larkin and a couple of 2nd rounders but now phil added more unecessary salary
Bonn1997 wrote:I've been wondering this too. I would. It sucks that it came to this. We already gave up Tyson to get him and now we'll have to give up assets to get rid of him! But it basically boils down to whether you think we should be able to get better production out of $9 mil in FA signings this off-season (the amount that TH and Calderon take up). I think we should be able to.
in no way should "what we gave up for......." be a basis for trading or not. The basis is the talent discussed.
Its like "I paid $75 for a stock and Im not selling it for anything less". There are fundamentals to that of course but a player like a stock valuations can change on many things, like an injury.
There are exceptions like with Melo, who is still seemingly healthy when he was signed last summer. Getting him depleted our asset base at the time, so letting him walk was problematic to that, and maybe the intangible that would be Dolans ego if he walked.
Melo can request a trade, and maybe we get back 65 cents on the dollar but we had him for 4 seasons. The wins and losses don't really matter on his depreciation.
We heard fans flamer about not getting more back for Shump as he cost us a 17th place in a first round. He would not command that.
OKC had a better offer on the table last year as his contract and upside was still more appealing. What we don't know is how protected that pick would be. The one they gave cleveland was pretty detailed and could desolve into 2nd round pick(s).
Given the CBA, those are valuable assets too!!
fishmike wrote:I dont have an opinion, or rather I am undecided. I think Jose has a skill set, but that skill set requires some pieces around him to impact the game as Nalod mentioned in Dallas. Im pretty down on THjr as most know. I see him as bench scorer and an 8th or 9th guy. You will get some 25 minute games from him where he drops 15+ and hits some big shots and you will have some 10 minute games where he goes 1-7 and you yank him until next time. Ultimately if doesnt expand his game he wont make it past his rookie conract in the league
It's nice to have guys on dirt cheap rookie contracts in case they improve. There's so little cost to keeping them. And I do think Calderon isn't as bad as he's looked. It's not an easy decision. I think I'd still rather have the $9 mil in cap space though.
No I would not. Calderon and Hardaway have value. Beside why would you trade Hardaway he is going to be the best SG this team has had since H20. These next 40 games will tell a lot about Hardaway. Calderon to me is a keeper.
Nalod wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I've been wondering this too. I would. It sucks that it came to this. We already gave up Tyson to get him and now we'll have to give up assets to get rid of him! But it basically boils down to whether you think we should be able to get better production out of $9 mil in FA signings this off-season (the amount that TH and Calderon take up). I think we should be able to.
in no way should "what we gave up for......." be a basis for trading or not. The basis is the talent discussed. Its like "I paid $75 for a stock and Im not selling it for anything less". There are fundamentals to that of course but a player like a stock valuations can change on many things, like an injury.
There are exceptions like with Melo, who is still seemingly healthy when he was signed last summer. Getting him depleted our asset base at the time, so letting him walk was problematic to that, and maybe the intangible that would be Dolans ego if he walked.
Melo can request a trade, and maybe we get back 65 cents on the dollar but we had him for 4 seasons. The wins and losses don't really matter on his depreciation.
We heard fans flamer about not getting more back for Shump as he cost us a 17th place in a first round. He would not command that.
OKC had a better offer on the table last year as his contract and upside was still more appealing. What we don't know is how protected that pick would be. The one they gave cleveland was pretty detailed and could desolve into 2nd round pick(s).
Given the CBA, those are valuable assets too!!
I agree. I'm just saying it sucks we gave up Tyson to get him, and now we're going to have to give up more assets just get rid of him. Did you notice that I actually said I would do this deal despite having given up Tyson?
Haven't been able to watch too many games this season, so I cant comment on the year THJ is having, but I wouldn't jettison him just yet. When he first got here Hardaway quickly became the most clutch player on the team. Apparently thats no longer the case but it does show what THJ is capable of. As far as defense, THJ has to put in the time to become a better defender.
I would also hold on to Calderon until Shumpert and Smith have had a chance to play. If they play well, other teams might be more interested in Caledron, believing his subpar season was more about the dysfunction on the Knicks than anything else.
Bonn1997 wrote:Nalod wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I've been wondering this too. I would. It sucks that it came to this. We already gave up Tyson to get him and now we'll have to give up assets to get rid of him! But it basically boils down to whether you think we should be able to get better production out of $9 mil in FA signings this off-season (the amount that TH and Calderon take up). I think we should be able to.
in no way should "what we gave up for......." be a basis for trading or not. The basis is the talent discussed. Its like "I paid $75 for a stock and Im not selling it for anything less". There are fundamentals to that of course but a player like a stock valuations can change on many things, like an injury.
There are exceptions like with Melo, who is still seemingly healthy when he was signed last summer. Getting him depleted our asset base at the time, so letting him walk was problematic to that, and maybe the intangible that would be Dolans ego if he walked.
Melo can request a trade, and maybe we get back 65 cents on the dollar but we had him for 4 seasons. The wins and losses don't really matter on his depreciation.
We heard fans flamer about not getting more back for Shump as he cost us a 17th place in a first round. He would not command that.
OKC had a better offer on the table last year as his contract and upside was still more appealing. What we don't know is how protected that pick would be. The one they gave cleveland was pretty detailed and could desolve into 2nd round pick(s).
Given the CBA, those are valuable assets too!!
I agree. I'm just saying it sucks we gave up Tyson to get him, and now we're going to have to give up more assets just get rid of him. Did you notice that I actually said I would do this deal despite having given up Tyson?
Tyson needed a change of scenery, he always seemed more comfortable in Dallas. His value wasnt as high because he had a down year. My only issue with the trade was taking Calderon's contract
I would do it. It's better to cut your losses. Same way we dumped JR after signing him long term when we should've let him walk especially since we were going to draft THJ. The sooner we cut our losses the better. Doesn't matter that we screwed up the Tyson trade
Do you guys realize he only sucks because he's on this roster, playing with a bunch of nobodies and a clueless coach. Since Tyson joined the Mavs, his value has sky rocketed. You do yourself no favors dumping when value is low, he would still be a good back up regardless.
To me Phil was sick of JR and Shump, there IQ was just to low, especially around other LOW IQ players.
StarksEwing1 wrote:I still dont get why Phil wanted him to begin with. I mean he as always been more of a shooter but he is also 33 with multiple years left. Dallas really wanted Tyson back and he was coming off a bad season. I would ave been happ just getting larkin and a couple of 2nd rounders but now phil added more unecessary salary
Salary had to match. Tyson made 14mil.
Jose played very well last year. His skill set in the triangle could provide value.
The big "IF" was Bargnani would/could thrive in the triangle. If so, it helps Melo. If those two are playing well together, Jose has lots of room to be Jose.
Got to look at the decision at the moment it was made thru the eyes of the GM and what the concept was anticipated. Hindsight gives you clarity to see mistakes.
Its all based on percentages and luck. Bargnani fall with his elbow was a freak event. Summer before he had Pneumonia so he was slow coming in last year.
Im not saying I loved the trade for him but one has to look at his potential at the time, nature of his injuries and if we succeed the pick is really not that valuable. I don't understand not protecting it because if the nature of valuation of the pick becomes inverted if its a bad trade for us. the More we suck, the better the pick for the other team. Eddy Curry trade was the worst example. Players don't come with Warranties.
can we bring in better players in free agency for their cap space?
I'm not sure we can - we have questions about the kind of players we'll be able to add after this disaster of a season.
Are we going to be settling for 2nd tier players already? I worry we will.
franco12 wrote:can we bring in better players in free agency for their cap space?I'm not sure we can - we have questions about the kind of players we'll be able to add after this disaster of a season.
Are we going to be settling for 2nd tier players already? I worry we will.
2nd tier with potential is better than 2nd tier that are dysfuncitional in our objective.
2nd tier quality can be traded as assets. They are attractive commodities.
But clearing out stale players we also bring in potential. Galloway might not be Linsanity but he could become a tier two type player.
To stay or as a trade asset.
We are creating opportinity. We can only undo the past by moving forward. Can't keep players because of the price we paid to get them. That is not reality.
"Ignorance breeds fear" Don't worry about what WON"T happen. WE are all ignorant by the way to the future. If management is fearful (as they have been) they prevented much opportunity.
Sure we might not get the no. 1 pick who could be a sure thing. BUt if we don't rebuild we will never get an opportunity.
What if we don't get the top pick? We have an opportunity to draft someone who actually might be better?
Jordan was taken 3rd! Durant Second. Lillard 8th, Amare 9th, etc etc...........
Maybe we wiff on the pick? That could happen.
I personally wouldn't use Hardaway in a deal for Jose unless it really benefitted us in return. Can't just be a straight salary dump again. At some point we have to extract value or just be patient. We're not really under any pressure to move Jose just yet. THJ could just be having one of those Sophomore slumps. There's talent there and an opportunity for him to improve. It's just a bit early IMO to give up on THJ.
Thats 9mm combined--if its ending contracts--its a no brainer to dump them.
I don't like Tim Jr, so naturally I would say YES! However I'm still hoping that The Pelicans might be interested in a Calderon for Austin Rivers, Fredette and John Samons (3 expiring trash players). helps with heir shooting and gives them some veteran leadership.
I think other teams know we lack negotiating power, so the best you can hope for is that we just get expiring for him.
Prefer to keep Hardaway at this point, but I don't know how Phil and Fisher look at his development as a player this year, and his long term potential.
I think that right now he is the only true SG we have.
Galloway would have to look amazingly good by the trade deadline before you would use Hardaway to dump Calderon, IMO.
Teams know what we are trying to do at this point. Phil needs to find a team that is more desperate for a Calderon type PG than we are desperate to unload him. Might be hard to find at this point, but who knows what might happen injury-wise on one team or another.
If we do give up Hardaway with Calderon I would expect no less than a #1 coming back to the Knicks.
I am also one who thinks that Calderon would be a better player than he has been with us so far with a better supporting cast, be that on the Knicks or another team.
