Knicks · The Five Toughest Players I’ve Ever Guarded - by Paul Pierce (page 1)
He ranks Melo ahead of Kobe, McGrady, Vince, and Lebron.
If I had to single one guy out who is the most difficult player to guard in the league, it would have to be Carmelo. He’s a unique blend of being big, strong, and athletic while also having a world-class shooting touch and a natural ability to get to the rim. That’s what sets him apart — every facet of his game is elite.Some great players will have one or two particular skills that make them special. But Carmelo can do everything, which puts you in a baaad situation as a defender. A lot of guys might shoot better from certain areas, so you try to force them elsewhere on the floor. Carmelo doesn’t have a spot on the floor where he can’t consistently hit shots.
In my opinion, his combination of physicality and shooting touch is unmatched in the NBA. You can’t take one second off when you’re matched up against him.
Kobe is one of the best scorers in NBA history, but I don’t have as much trouble with him in the post as I do with Carmelo. LeBron is a great post-up player, but if you get him to settle for the jumper on some nights, you might be able to slow him down if his shot is off. That’s not the case with Melo. If you give him space to shoot, he’ll make it many more times than he misses it.
To put it plainly, he’s not a fun assignment on defense.
Thoughts?
Footwork and savvy ability to separate from you to get his shot off
Every player will have their bevy of tough covers
Melo is a tough cover but it's more about Melo converting
At a more efficient clip and while mixing his game up
To reflect more team play and less mano-a-mano
every facet of his game is elite
Cue the "one dimensional" posts, in 3...2...1...
OAK wrote:http://www.theplayerstribune.com/paul-pierce-five-toughest-players-ive-ever-guarded/its true. People see ball hog, shot hog, Im gonna get mine... etc etc.He ranks Melo ahead of Kobe, McGrady, Vince, and Lebron.
If I had to single one guy out who is the most difficult player to guard in the league, it would have to be Carmelo. He’s a unique blend of being big, strong, and athletic while also having a world-class shooting touch and a natural ability to get to the rim. That’s what sets him apart — every facet of his game is elite.Some great players will have one or two particular skills that make them special. But Carmelo can do everything, which puts you in a baaad situation as a defender. A lot of guys might shoot better from certain areas, so you try to force them elsewhere on the floor. Carmelo doesn’t have a spot on the floor where he can’t consistently hit shots.
In my opinion, his combination of physicality and shooting touch is unmatched in the NBA. You can’t take one second off when you’re matched up against him.
Kobe is one of the best scorers in NBA history, but I don’t have as much trouble with him in the post as I do with Carmelo. LeBron is a great post-up player, but if you get him to settle for the jumper on some nights, you might be able to slow him down if his shot is off. That’s not the case with Melo. If you give him space to shoot, he’ll make it many more times than he misses it.
To put it plainly, he’s not a fun assignment on defense.
Thoughts?
I think it was blcexec or teamball who posted in another thread and they asked Earl Barron if guys liked playing with Melo and he said they do. Here's the thing. Melo is relenetless. He will keep pounding you and attacking you, and yes.. sometimes that can lead to some very non eff% stat lines and ugly inflated usage stats. Those are negatives. However having a teammate that the other team hates to guard, and is willing to constantly attack takes a lot of pressure off everyone. That can be both a negative and a positive. Also that mindset is tiring for an opponent. Melo is exausting to guard. That is a positive. If you look at 10 years of his +/- stats on 82games you can see his opponent EFG% are pretty low. Is it because Melo is a good defender? Obviously not. Does guarding Melo affect your energy on offense? Well if you have ever played anything you know the answer is yes.
Melo is an interesting player in that his positives are also often his negatives. Players have been forthcoming saying they like playing with him. Stars have openly said they would love to have him on his squad. In the right setting we have seen him finish 3rd in MVP voting and take a team of role players to 50+ wins and round 2. In the wrong setting we have seen extended iso-ball, no ball movement, predictable and easy guard offenses and tons and tons of bad shots.
He has the respect of his peers. Regardless of what you think Phil's mandate with Melo was or wasnt he agreed to come on and put his rep on the line to build a team with Melo on it. Mostly Im really looking forward to see how that plays out.
If he's still healthy Im high on what Melo can do here under this management. I have also held him accountable for bailing on MDA and his prior playoff failures both with the Knicks and Nugs.
In terms of talent and status he actually reminds of me Eli Manning. Eli will never be like Brady, Rogers or his big brother. He's not that kind of player. He makes tons of bad passes and bad decisions. But he's also very talented and when he's got the right pieces around him he can OUTPLAY those guys Ive mentioned and he has.
My hope is simple. That we build a great team. Some here think Melo cant be a part of such a construction. I believe he can be, but not that he will be. Time will tell, we need to see more.
fishmike wrote:OAK wrote:http://www.theplayerstribune.com/paul-pierce-five-toughest-players-ive-ever-guarded/its true. People see ball hog, shot hog, Im gonna get mine... etc etc.He ranks Melo ahead of Kobe, McGrady, Vince, and Lebron.
If I had to single one guy out who is the most difficult player to guard in the league, it would have to be Carmelo. He’s a unique blend of being big, strong, and athletic while also having a world-class shooting touch and a natural ability to get to the rim. That’s what sets him apart — every facet of his game is elite.Some great players will have one or two particular skills that make them special. But Carmelo can do everything, which puts you in a baaad situation as a defender. A lot of guys might shoot better from certain areas, so you try to force them elsewhere on the floor. Carmelo doesn’t have a spot on the floor where he can’t consistently hit shots.
In my opinion, his combination of physicality and shooting touch is unmatched in the NBA. You can’t take one second off when you’re matched up against him.
Kobe is one of the best scorers in NBA history, but I don’t have as much trouble with him in the post as I do with Carmelo. LeBron is a great post-up player, but if you get him to settle for the jumper on some nights, you might be able to slow him down if his shot is off. That’s not the case with Melo. If you give him space to shoot, he’ll make it many more times than he misses it.
To put it plainly, he’s not a fun assignment on defense.
Thoughts?
I think it was blcexec or teamball who posted in another thread and they asked Earl Barron if guys liked playing with Melo and he said they do. Here's the thing. Melo is relenetless. He will keep pounding you and attacking you, and yes.. sometimes that can lead to some very non eff% stat lines and ugly inflated usage stats. Those are negatives. However having a teammate that the other team hates to guard, and is willing to constantly attack takes a lot of pressure off everyone. That can be both a negative and a positive. Also that mindset is tiring for an opponent. Melo is exausting to guard. That is a positive. If you look at 10 years of his +/- stats on 82games you can see his opponent EFG% are pretty low. Is it because Melo is a good defender? Obviously not. Does guarding Melo affect your energy on offense? Well if you have ever played anything you know the answer is yes.
Melo is an interesting player in that his positives are also often his negatives. Players have been forthcoming saying they like playing with him. Stars have openly said they would love to have him on his squad. In the right setting we have seen him finish 3rd in MVP voting and take a team of role players to 50+ wins and round 2. In the wrong setting we have seen extended iso-ball, no ball movement, predictable and easy guard offenses and tons and tons of bad shots.
He has the respect of his peers. Regardless of what you think Phil's mandate with Melo was or wasnt he agreed to come on and put his rep on the line to build a team with Melo on it. Mostly Im really looking forward to see how that plays out.
If he's still healthy Im high on what Melo can do here under this management. I have also held him accountable for bailing on MDA and his prior playoff failures both with the Knicks and Nugs.
In terms of talent and status he actually reminds of me Eli Manning. Eli will never be like Brady, Rogers or his big brother. He's not that kind of player. He makes tons of bad passes and bad decisions. But he's also very talented and when he's got the right pieces around him he can OUTPLAY those guys Ive mentioned and he has.
My hope is simple. That we build a great team. Some here think Melo cant be a part of such a construction. I believe he can be, but not that he will be. Time will tell, we need to see more.
Maybe that "Hate Eight" are the only ones who dislike Melo. Half of F500 problem is the money.
IN HIS PRIME, I thought Tmac was one of the TOUGHEST players to defend while he was in Orlando with no team
Would have been nice to watch him with Grant Hill's abilities together
That era was filled with many 40-50, 60pts every week with AI, Vince, Tmac, Kobe, Shaq, Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine Oneil, Ron Artest, Reggie Miller, Bonzi Wells, Zack Randolph, and so many great players if younger and older generations
JR RIDER LOL
RonRon wrote:In my opinion,TMAC was a monster. Another Isiah drafteeIN HIS PRIME, I thought Tmac was one of the TOUGHEST players to defend while he was in Orlando with no team
Would have been nice to watch him with Grant Hill's abilities togetherThat era was filled with many 40-50, 60pts every week with AI, Vince, Tmac, Kobe, Shaq, Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine Oneil, Ron Artest, Reggie Miller, Bonzi Wells, Zack Randolph, and so many great players if younger and older generations
JR RIDER LOL
But when you are the best 1 on 1 player in the world and you know this yourself....you will always go back to what you do best when the game gets close in crunch time. I was like melo in my prime but i was unselfish and people couldnt understand why i dont just turn it on all the time. The one thing i was good at is what melo needs to work on.....passing out of the double team.
Even with his lack of IQ and playmaking ability he should be able to recognize double and triple teams. Players need to be involved. Phil brings it up a lot. Melo needs to be a better leader and lift his teammates. We've seen him try a few times this year. Just have to do it on a consistent basis. Not get discouraged and revert back
gunsnewing wrote:Melo's game would drastically improve if he learned how to pass out of double and triple teams. That's certainly been a constant flaw with him.Even with his lack of IQ and playmaking ability he should be able to recognize double and triple teams. Players need to be involved. Phil brings it up a lot. Melo needs to be a better leader and lift his teammates. We've seen him try a few times this year. Just have to do it on a consistent basis. Not get discouraged and revert back
yup.
pass the rock and don't go 1 on 3 and fall in love with your own shot.
He played great against NO and was terrible against Phil (as far as recognizing and passing to the open man). It was really hard to watch.
Its especially hard since he has the potential to be so much better if he made these adjustments that he seem so insistent on not making.
mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Melo's game would drastically improve if he learned how to pass out of double and triple teams. That's certainly been a constant flaw with him.Even with his lack of IQ and playmaking ability he should be able to recognize double and triple teams. Players need to be involved. Phil brings it up a lot. Melo needs to be a better leader and lift his teammates. We've seen him try a few times this year. Just have to do it on a consistent basis. Not get discouraged and revert back
yup.
pass the rock and don't go 1 on 3 and fall in love with your own shot.
He played great against NO and was terrible against Phil (as far as recognizing and passing to the open man). It was really hard to watch.
Its especially hard since he has the potential to be so much better if he made these adjustments that he seem so insistent on not making.
Yea I knew the way he played vs New Orleans wouldn't last. It never does with him. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed but I would expect someone like Phil with his cache and the help of Fisher would get this through to him
gunsnewing wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Melo's game would drastically improve if he learned how to pass out of double and triple teams. That's certainly been a constant flaw with him.Even with his lack of IQ and playmaking ability he should be able to recognize double and triple teams. Players need to be involved. Phil brings it up a lot. Melo needs to be a better leader and lift his teammates. We've seen him try a few times this year. Just have to do it on a consistent basis. Not get discouraged and revert back
yup.
pass the rock and don't go 1 on 3 and fall in love with your own shot.
He played great against NO and was terrible against Phil (as far as recognizing and passing to the open man). It was really hard to watch.
Its especially hard since he has the potential to be so much better if he made these adjustments that he seem so insistent on not making.
Yea I knew the way he played vs New Orleans wouldn't last. It never does with him. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed but I would expect someone like Phil with the help of Fisher would get this through to him
me too. that is why I am so disappointed in them.
If we brought in a coach when he first came to NYK that would challenge him and he would have accepted the challenge rather than doing it his way, there might still have been a chance, but Woodson did the complete opposite, and he bourght in, as he was already looking for his NEXT contract that he just signed with us last summer
So the whole purpose of doing a sign and trade with the EXTRA YEAR of guaranteed money was used to OPT OUT of it, instead of just signing with us in the OFF SEASON as a threat to give his future team more leverage to build around him....
At this point of his career, I do not know if he can change all the bad habits that he has developed over the years and Woodson has enabled him to do
But change is surely needed on BOTH ENDS of the floor, playing on and off the ball
Learning to play OFF THE BALL and TRUST in his team mates when the game is on the line, without 2nd questioning the result
I am not sure if we still want him to take the facilating role that he should be capapable of doing with his skils sets or just look for other players in which makes him a catch and shoot scorer instead
He surely needs to defend a positon and prepare his body for it as the SF or PF is completely different, especially with the Hybrid SF/PF's like Durant
When playing the PF (which I think is his best position at his age and loss of physical abiltiies/step) he is not a shot blocker BUT he can beat his man to the spot, and take charges at times, and sometimes just BOX OUT and use his strength, position, and quickness over the traditional PF's, something I think Draymond Green can help demonstrate to him, and Jared Jeffries/Kmart did very well
When he plays the PnR, he needs to learn to know when to crash the boards and when to roll in and when to roll out
Sometimes he will be the beneficiary and sometimes it will be his team mates, regardless he should always put himself in a position where he has 2-3 favorible options to rely upon
With his skill set, he will force mismatch problems, however, it depends on how the DEFENSE plays him and the rest of the team
SOMEONE must be open if he does it correctly, a lot of times he could either get the WIDE OPEN SHOT or be able to force the DEFENSE to an unfavoritable match up in which must be taken advantage off
Even when he played with Tyson Chandler, he would rarely pass to him that Chandler would be unable to catch the ball majority of the times, while in Dallas it is the complete opposite because when Chandler rolls, he will get the ball 90% of the time if he is open
Chandler's hands were HORRIBLE the past couple of years in NYK but this is something that all of CA, Chandler, Coaching staff all had to communicate together with
These were things that Kmart was actually very good at and that was part of the reason CA worked much better with Kmart rather than Chandler
IMO,
For CA to win with consistency though
1- he would need to join a team that takes the ball out of his hands (imagine if Harden was playing next to him and Harden initiated the OFFENSE with his ability to penetrate and finish, it draws double teams to even 4-5 guys to him at times, leaving many shooters open and it would make it much easier for him
2- his job is to CATCH and shoot, just be decisive and make a move as soon as he catches the ball, also always anticipating what the DEFENSE will do, and to make moves and go to area's off the dribles where he has options for deception, dont even worry about getting the assist or STAT, sometimes giving to the player with the angle the make the play
3- just pass the ball (before defense can recover) quickly before defense can recover
4- He needs to work on his intagibles, there is no doubt I think he is trying to win the past couple of seasons with us, and is trying to change but has troubles adjusting at his age
5- He needs to work on his defense, know his strengths and weakness versus each matchup
He is going to need help but how to position himself and force his opponents to the help side and allow his team mates to recover, and not be able to contest shooters while being able to recover at the same time
This is something Draymond Green and GS does very well
There simply isn't ONE way to defend every player as everyones skillset and match up dictates how he could defend them at his best.....
6- If he isn't able to change, which is very hard at this point of his career, he probably is best suited playing as a 6th man role where he just does what he does best, scorer
A role similar to what he played in Team USA, though being able to run a philsophy like that means that you have a lot of talent/depth on the roster, with a lot of versatile players/defenders/playmakors/ players with the ability to handle the ball/shot/finish with penetrate/facilitate
Joining a team like Houston with D12, Harden, and many verastile defenders like Ariza, Brewer, Beverely, DMO, and Josh Smith/Terrence Jones
If we are unable to attract FA's this summer and we feel we have to do a rebuild that would take a couple of years, both Phil Jackson and CA must make a decision if CA wants to go through that and stay in NYK or not....
Though I would want and need some of the above back with Koustas Pap unguaranteed 5m to make it work, they have 3 of our 2nd round picks in the next couple of years and could throw in 1-2 1st rounders *one is Memphis's and they own 1-2 other 2nd round picks as well from other teams* Surprisingly Rockets still have a lot of picks and would make sense since they have a strong core and in Texas there is no STATE tax....
I do believe that CA could be part of a legit title contenders, however, it would be very hard for it to be NYK with our lack of picks, and salary cap restrictions *especially with the new rules on trade exemptions holding up cap space when it was never so prior to this year, when we never had this many trade exemptions to improve*
It would take time and we need our to go young and basically develop our young guys including Thanasis and the #1 pick this year, maybe additional undrafted players/picks bought/traded this summer as this is a very strong/deep draft, especially with BIGS
It is evident with the sweep by GS last night that Rockets are still missing 1-2 pieces and they are built win it before D12 declines with more injuries
say what you want but Melo is that guy. It must be hard to play when the best shot on the court is the one you take. He's been getting better at it and you can only hope that in this new triangle era that he gets better as better talent starts to roll in
gunsnewing wrote:^Ron You forgot about Dantoni. He challenged him and things did not end well. Leading to the hiring of Woodson
Which led to Phil. You can only hope this situation is going to be the one that puts it all together
TripleThreat wrote:OAK wrote:Thoughts?
Deion Sanders has been called the best "pure cover corner" in NFL history.While Rod Woodson ( arguably of course) has long been seen as one of the best overall cornerbacks in NFL history.
Woodson was rare for his era, he had size, he had speed, he could cover, he could defend the run, he was a smart player, his athleticism was off the charts, his fundamentals were elite.
Sanders though, could lock down half the field by himself, but if you wanted a guy to give you elite level press coverage or a sure tackler or an imposing run defender, or someone who could slide over to safety seamlessly, he probably wasn't your guy.
The point is, complimenting that you do one thing well doesn't always translate to you being the kind of player that does many of the core things that helps your team win.
I don't think anyone here discounts Melo's lethality as an isolation one vs one basketball offensive player. I don't think anyone here will argue that Melo is offensively complete from a natural standpoint. He can do it all, hit from three, take you at midrange, with his back the basket, in transition, with either hand, against size or speed, even against many double teams.
The general arguments about Melo's game here are about leadership, skill set translating to being more than just a gunner/scorer, lack of defense, lack of general BB IQ, his conditioning, his inability to handle the press well, his inability to make players around him better, his problems reading a basic defensive set ( which is not one vs one basketball) and his, at times, low efficiency play.
What is Paul Pierce saying here that most people here don't already acknowledge. Melo is an elite one vs one isolation player. In a single matchup, he's deadly.
What Paul Pierce is NOT SAYING is that trait alone means Melo is above the criticisms he receives as a player in general. From some Knicks fans and from general basketball/NBA fans.
IMHO, nothing Pierce says changes the basic narrative - That Melo is just good enough to help you be just good enough to be a treadmill team. That you need to be more than just a lethal one vs one isolation offensive juggernaut to actually win playoff ball and lead your team to championship.
Great stuff although I'd like to add
If we're talking about corner coverage Deion to Woodson it's close
If we're talking about their game as in better player
Deion by an effin landslide and it's not even close
Because Deion didn't only cover half a field
He also returned kick offs and punt returns at Comic Book levels
Until fans get out of their cocoon of seeing this game as a game of 21 in regards to Melo
Then they'll never get over being madly in love with him