dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Melo isn't an emotional leader or an intangible dirty work type of guy. He is what he is which is one if the toughest covers in the league. A good team consist of players that cover each others weaknesses. Rather then depending on one guy to be a teams everthing. Derek Fisher was a role player and never made 10mil per season. But was one of the leadership figures on the champiobship Lakers team. Our draft pick should be our talent grabber while some of the money should go to a 3rd talent. The rest of the team should be about. Leadership, hard work, professionalism but guys who are contagious with it.
listen you make a great, valid, inarguable point. good teams manage to find ways to cover weaknesses of one another (and enhance strengths). my issue is you just don't pay one player 25 million who is as profoundly flawed as melo is. what we have here is a virtually impossible situation, a very very deep hole that many posters seem to think the knickerbockers will be able to dig themselves out of... with the goal of winning a title with melo in a knick uniform.
the amount of sheer inertia that his salary and his game have on a team is immense.
One thing that benefits us is that players with leadership cappabilities don't need to be expensive. Neither do professional or hardworking team guys. The areas that cost money is talent. So basically we have to hit on our draft pick which is cost effective talent. And we have to hit on a great signing with our cap space. We basically need a Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups type signing and an Amare type hit on our draft pick. We have a ability to be able to land either or both which is all we can ask for.
again you make a good point-- good leadership need not come at a high price-- in fact, when we had kurt thomas, rasheed wallace, jason kidd, even kenyon martin-- that was enough to solidify the team that season, and i will emphasize how important kidd was those first 35 games or so.
but that was then, and the median age of those cats was probably 37. this is now: are you saying there are players with that kind of leadership, ballast, charisma, game, AND who are in the prime of their careers-- that can overcome the anthinay inertia?
This I don't know. But Phil should be turning over every rock in order to find them. They also don't have to be prime. Just not over the hill. Like Kidd in Dallas wasn't prime but he wasn't over the hill. Same with Shawn Marion. Of course I don't know if we will be able to land that level of talent with leadership or dirty work capabilities.
newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Melo isn't an emotional leader or an intangible dirty work type of guy. He is what he is which is one if the toughest covers in the league. A good team consist of players that cover each others weaknesses. Rather then depending on one guy to be a teams everthing. Derek Fisher was a role player and never made 10mil per season. But was one of the leadership figures on the champiobship Lakers team. Our draft pick should be our talent grabber while some of the money should go to a 3rd talent. The rest of the team should be about. Leadership, hard work, professionalism but guys who are contagious with it.
listen you make a great, valid, inarguable point. good teams manage to find ways to cover weaknesses of one another (and enhance strengths). my issue is you just don't pay one player 25 million who is as profoundly flawed as melo is. what we have here is a virtually impossible situation, a very very deep hole that many posters seem to think the knickerbockers will be able to dig themselves out of... with the goal of winning a title with melo in a knick uniform.
the amount of sheer inertia that his salary and his game have on a team is immense.
One thing that benefits us is that players with leadership cappabilities don't need to be expensive. Neither do professional or hardworking team guys. The areas that cost money is talent. So basically we have to hit on our draft pick which is cost effective talent. And we have to hit on a great signing with our cap space. We basically need a Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups type signing and an Amare type hit on our draft pick. We have a ability to be able to land either or both which is all we can ask for.
again you make a good point-- good leadership need not come at a high price-- in fact, when we had kurt thomas, rasheed wallace, jason kidd, even kenyon martin-- that was enough to solidify the team that season, and i will emphasize how important kidd was those first 35 games or so.
but that was then, and the median age of those cats was probably 37. this is now: are you saying there are players with that kind of leadership, ballast, charisma, game, AND who are in the prime of their careers-- that can overcome the anthinay inertia?
This I don't know. But Phil should be turning over every rock in order to find them. They also don't have to be prime. Just not over the hill. Like Kidd in Dallas wasn't prime but he wasn't over the hill. Same with Shawn Marion. Of course I don't know if we will be able to land that level of talent with leadership or dirty work capabilities.
Yea but Dirk took a paycut and made only $17mil and managed to stay healthy in 10/11.
Allowing them to add multiple key championship pieces TYSON, kidd and Marion just to name a few.
And honestly Dallas winning was kind of a fluke as they caught Miami at the right time Before they learned how to close
having melo has some advantages in that we are not starting from square 1 on a rebuild/retool... also if he ever wanted to get traded we can at least get something for him.. if he left in free agency we would have gotten zero...
FistOfOakley wrote:having melo has some advantages in that we are not starting from square 1 on a rebuild/retool... also if he ever wanted to get traded we can at least get something for him.. if he left in free agency we would have gotten zero...
You get players back in a sign and trade. I may be wrong but I think he had more value in the offseason than he does now injured at $124mil
Great name by the way!
i think there was only one viable candidate for a sign and trade and that was the bulls and they weren't really down to sign him anyway let alone give up anything of value...
i think now with teams with cleaner cap sheets for next season and lots of contenders and what is shaping up to be a wide open nba across both conferences he has more value now...
that's if jackson is open to trading him and if melo waives his no trade clause but if we have a 15 win season and a top 3 pick in a strong draft and no strong free agents sign here... there is going to be mounting pressure to tear it all down...
nyk4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyk4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:nyk4ever wrote:franco12 wrote:Carmelo is 30 years old.He has played 30,067 minutes in his career.
How much is left in the tank.
Yes, a Mercedes with 100k miles might be better than a brand new hyundai.
But not if it breaks down...
Any player can "break down" (see Derrick rose) I guess Russell Westbrook is Broken down too since he's been injured alot. if that's what we're really calling melo now...broken down? a little exaggerate no?
This is what everyone goes for first when speaking negatively about Melo. He's "broken down" because he is not playing 82 games a season and has been in the league for many years. But like you said, there are other players who get injured too. For some reason Melo is held at a higher standard where he is not allowed to get injured or he is broken down and on the decline.
I think you guys missed a word
i think you've missed alot more than just a word.
from someone who thought this roster would be a great time
i have no interest in having a great time with anyone on this roster. sorry pal.
HA! That was supposed to be great "team" not "time"
FistOfOakley wrote:having melo has some advantages in that we are not starting from square 1 on a rebuild/retool... also if he ever wanted to get traded we can at least get something for him.. if he left in free agency we would have gotten zero...
If you have a .200 team, you're starting from square 1. It doesn't matter if you have someone scoring 80 PPG. .200 is .200
You could say that having a .200 team without a lot of draft picks and the highest paid player on the planet is worse than square 1. It's a close call. When I posted the poll on whether people would rather have our situation or a blank slate/expansion team, it was understandably a close vote - and that's on a Knicks' fan site.
I mean this is a guy who was sitting with Phil Allan Houston and our GM watching Okafor--we gave him 124mm--does it seem like he is going to be a part of this? So why wouldnt a fan--certainly not a rose colored fan--say well lets look at the positives Melo is certainly a great basketball player--anyone who doesnt understand his upper tier skill level need not reply. Now its just honing those skills and letting him be part of a team. Not a centralized player but a part--a piece. Im sorry hes been in the playoffs 11 times--he was responsible for getting a team that has not gone to the playoffs other than backing in in 15 years and we won 54. You can see where he can be good IF hes put into the position as part of a team. This really feels like Zach Randolph again--some people want to sell him for zero I think the idea here is make the most of what he brings in a team concept.
Zach Randolph? If he was making $124 mil, I'd happily sell him for zero. Finding someone to take his salary off our books would be the team's most urgent need. I'd never keep him at a cost just a little below the entire Hawks, Spurs, or Raptors starting lineup.
BRIGGS wrote:I mean this is a guy who was sitting with Phil Allan Houston and our GM watching Okafor--we gave him 124mm--does it seem like he is going to be a part of this? So why wouldnt a fan--certainly not a rose colored fan--say well lets look at the positives Melo is certainly a great basketball player--anyone who doesnt understand his upper tier skill level need not reply. Now its just honing those skills and letting him be part of a team. Not a centralized player but a part--a piece. Im sorry hes been in the playoffs 11 times--he was responsible for getting a team that has not gone to the playoffs other than backing in in 15 years and we won 54. You can see where he can be good IF hes put into the position as part of a team. This really feels like Zach Randolph again--some people want to sell him for zero I think the idea here is make the most of what he brings in a team concept.
Funny Briggs I feel the same way about Calderon!
He's here, he has some nice skills, he can be part of a winning franchise if we can skillfully add parts in the off season and get maybe a little lucky with the draft.
And I agree about Melo.
But I am way worried he is H20 albatross contract about to choke us the next five years!
gunsnewing wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:dk7th wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Melo isn't an emotional leader or an intangible dirty work type of guy. He is what he is which is one if the toughest covers in the league. A good team consist of players that cover each others weaknesses. Rather then depending on one guy to be a teams everthing. Derek Fisher was a role player and never made 10mil per season. But was one of the leadership figures on the champiobship Lakers team. Our draft pick should be our talent grabber while some of the money should go to a 3rd talent. The rest of the team should be about. Leadership, hard work, professionalism but guys who are contagious with it.
listen you make a great, valid, inarguable point. good teams manage to find ways to cover weaknesses of one another (and enhance strengths). my issue is you just don't pay one player 25 million who is as profoundly flawed as melo is. what we have here is a virtually impossible situation, a very very deep hole that many posters seem to think the knickerbockers will be able to dig themselves out of... with the goal of winning a title with melo in a knick uniform.
the amount of sheer inertia that his salary and his game have on a team is immense.
One thing that benefits us is that players with leadership cappabilities don't need to be expensive. Neither do professional or hardworking team guys. The areas that cost money is talent. So basically we have to hit on our draft pick which is cost effective talent. And we have to hit on a great signing with our cap space. We basically need a Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups type signing and an Amare type hit on our draft pick. We have a ability to be able to land either or both which is all we can ask for.
again you make a good point-- good leadership need not come at a high price-- in fact, when we had kurt thomas, rasheed wallace, jason kidd, even kenyon martin-- that was enough to solidify the team that season, and i will emphasize how important kidd was those first 35 games or so.
but that was then, and the median age of those cats was probably 37. this is now: are you saying there are players with that kind of leadership, ballast, charisma, game, AND who are in the prime of their careers-- that can overcome the anthinay inertia?
This I don't know. But Phil should be turning over every rock in order to find them. They also don't have to be prime. Just not over the hill. Like Kidd in Dallas wasn't prime but he wasn't over the hill. Same with Shawn Marion. Of course I don't know if we will be able to land that level of talent with leadership or dirty work capabilities.
Yea but Dirk took a paycut and made only $17mil and managed to stay healthy in 10/11.
Allowing them to add multiple key championship pieces TYSON, kidd and Marion just to name a few.
And honestly Dallas winning was kind of a fluke as they caught Miami at the right time Before they learned how to close
Dallas, traded for Jason Terry(04), traded for Kidd(08), traded for Marion(09), traded for Tyson Chandler(10).
The salary cap was 58.044 that year. Dirk took up 30% of the Mavericks cap space.
They were a more complete team then Miami. Miami couldn't shoot and Dallas went zone and forced Miami to beat them from the perimeter which they couldn't. Wade went 7-23, Lebron went 9-28 from down town. The ast % from the Mavs as a team was greater then the ast % from Miami as a team. Miami should have lost to the Spurs as well who uncharacteristically folded down the stretch of a close out game losing focus.
Hitting on a top lottery pick alleviates Melo's salary. If Melo is making 22-26mil and our high lottery pick is producing at an allstar level at 6-8mil level(with the new salary cap) then the hit isn't as bad. And still leaves money on the table to add a 3rd talent who we should look to add at around a 12mil range. Then the rest of the cap should be used to fill in the leadership, dirty work, intangible, proffessional players who may not demand a lot of money. And/Or players we groom like Galloway, Thanasis, Early, Hardaway Jr, and who ever else we can uncover down the road.
Any negativity in this thread is not being rationalized with an open mind. Since CA has played with the Knicks--his teammates have been limited. There is a reason why his teams in Denver avg .600 ball and why we won 54 games with him. Now it cant be 1 player and a bunch of dogs. Carmelo with the right teammates is a really good player. Enough with this thread.
BRIGGS wrote:I mean this is a guy who was sitting with Phil Allan Houston and our GM watching Okafor--we gave him 124mm--does it seem like he is going to be a part of this? So why wouldnt a fan--certainly not a rose colored fan--say well lets look at the positives Melo is certainly a great basketball player--anyone who doesnt understand his upper tier skill level need not reply. Now its just honing those skills and letting him be part of a team. Not a centralized player but a part--a piece. Im sorry hes been in the playoffs 11 times--he was responsible for getting a team that has not gone to the playoffs other than backing in in 15 years and we won 54. You can see where he can be good IF hes put into the position as part of a team. This really feels like Zach Randolph again--some people want to sell him for zero I think the idea here is make the most of what he brings in a team concept.
I might make that a T Shirt Thank you BRIGGS™
melo is still a very very good player....
having a guy like melo gives you a lot of options and i'm pretty sure he's still a wanted commodity around the league... this is not like an amare situation where he is untradeable...
i'm not saying it's all roses... having melo in his age 34-35 seasons is a bit scary but ... we have cap space and we will have a high pick in a very decent draft and we have melo.. all of those are great assets to go in any direction phil jackson pleases...
FistOfOakley wrote:melo is still a very very good player.... having a guy like melo gives you a lot of options and i'm pretty sure he's still a wanted commodity around the league... this is not like an amare situation where he is untradeable...
i'm not saying it's all roses... having melo in his age 34-35 seasons is a bit scary but ... we have cap space and we will have a high pick in a very decent draft and we have melo.. all of those are great assets to go in any direction phil jackson pleases...
I have always accepted melo for what he is. He is a very good scorer but im not sure if he can be the guy on a contender which is fine.
BRIGGS wrote:Any negativity in this thread is not being rationalized with an open mind. Since CA has played with the Knicks--his teammates have been limited. There is a reason why his teams in Denver avg .600 ball and why we won 54 games with him. Now it cant be 1 player and a bunch of dogs. Carmelo with the right teammates is a really good player. Enough with this thread.
this. The guy doesnt play for two weeks, comes back and has new teammates, and drops 27/9 while the Knicks win every game he plays in.
Bottom line is Melo is a HOF player and will be a nice piece moving forward. If you worried about his cost and impact on the cap, fine... lets see how that plays out.
Guns.. I see you have changed your tune from "I have doubts that young players can develop with Melo here" to "Melo is breaking the cap"
How have the young guys looked since Melo came back? Is Galloway scared to shoot? Lance Thomas hides in a corner waiting for Melo's permission to shoot?
It's a beautiful thing especially if he continues to buy in and trust his teammates in the 4th quarter
